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 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 God In Action wrote:
Here's a little idea to support the idea that a SH can target an embarked unit, after the unit's transport has been destroyed.

Imagine your SH shoots enemy vehicle A with your weapon 1, behind which enemy unit B is in cover. Vehicle A explodes and is removed, revealing unit B in the clear. If you then shot unit B with your SH's weapon 2, you wouldn't grant unit B the benefit of cover from vehicle A which was just prior destroyed, right? After all, it has just been removed.

In other words, SH weapons are shot in a definite sequence and do not happen simultaneously.

BRB Pg.30 does tell us to select differently named weapons in sequence and not simultaneously. (So a SH's sponsons with same weapons would shoot simultaneously, but separately to its main turreted weapon).

Unit B being in los(elligible target) but behind cover of unit A and unit A being destroyed is not the same situation as unit B being inside Unit A(making unit B an ineligible target)

The exact same thing occurs with split fire and target lock(both of whom remind you that transport then contents is right out).

It is very simple you follow the shooting sequence and step 2 tells you to pick a target; the super heavy(et al) rules tell you that you can pick multiple targets instead.

If you do not think that the sequence matters anymore with these rules tham you must also think you can take a banehammer fire a lascannon from the sponson, fail to destroy the transport, then select the second sponson lascannon, fail to destroy the transport, select an entirely different unit that then destroys the transport, then go back to the banehammer to fire the main gun at the unit that was inside the transport. Is that what you are suggesting you can do? Because it breaks 3 rules.

Indeed, Unit B being in cover behind Unit A is NOT the same as Unit B being embarked in Unit A; but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that the similarity is in the sequence of shooting- that shooting Unit B happens AFTER shooting unit A (thus why B would cease to benefit from cover, otherwise they would be receiving phantom cover from a model that is there-but-not-really-there-because-it-exploded.

And no, I don't think you can shoot a Banehammer's lascannons, swap to a different unit, and then swap back to the Banehammer. But you could shoot the lascannons, before declaring what the main cannon is going to target and then pick the main cannon's target based on how the lascannons do.

What people keep forgetting is that you cannot target the passengers embarked on a transport. Since targets are selected before weapons are fired, and embarked units cannot be targeted, passengers forcibly disembarked during the shooting sequence were never targeted in the first place so cannot be directly shot at during the same shooting sequence. You can still attempt to drift a blast on to them, or clip them with a torrent, or drop a beam across them, but they are not a vaild target during the step when targets are selected.

Moving on to step 3 does not allow you to retarget. Moving back to step 3 does not allow you to retarget. Weapons are now fired in weapon groups, in a sequence of groups determibed by the player. However, weapons are not selected until after targets are selected, which means that you can choose which weapon group to shoot at which target on the fly rather that predetermining which weapon has to shoot which specific target. It is still debatable as to whether or not a weapon group must shoot at the same target, although in practice there dosn't seem to be a hard requirement if you already have permission to shoot each weapon at a different target.

Taken all together, neither a SHV nor a GC can shoot at the passengers that just disrmbarked from the transport it just killed (but a Knight with a Thunderfist Gauntlet can still throw the transport at them if it kill the transport during the assault phase).

SJ

The rule is actually:

CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at.

This is rule modified by the SHV rules. The "single enemy unit" becomes each "weapon at a different target." This is still in Step 2.

SHOOTING
When a Super-heavy vehicle makes a shooting attack, it is always treated as if it had remained stationary in the Movement phase (even if it actually moved), and it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired

So you declare each target prior to selecting weapons.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
What people keep forgetting is that you cannot target the passengers embarked on a transport. Since targets are selected before weapons are fired, and embarked units cannot be targeted, passengers forcibly disembarked during the shooting sequence were never targeted in the first place so cannot be directly shot at during the same shooting sequence. You can still attempt to drift a blast on to them, or clip them with a torrent, or drop a beam across them, but they are not a vaild target during the step when targets are selected.

Moving on to step 3 does not allow you to retarget. Moving back to step 3 does not allow you to retarget. Weapons are now fired in weapon groups, in a sequence of groups determibed by the player. However, weapons are not selected until after targets are selected, which means that you can choose which weapon group to shoot at which target on the fly rather that predetermining which weapon has to shoot which specific target. It is still debatable as to whether or not a weapon group must shoot at the same target, although in practice there dosn't seem to be a hard requirement if you already have permission to shoot each weapon at a different target.

Taken all together, neither a SHV nor a GC can shoot at the passengers that just disrmbarked from the transport it just killed (but a Knight with a Thunderfist Gauntlet can still throw the transport at them if it kill the transport during the assault phase).

SJ

Save for the simple fact that how and when the multiple targets are announced or addressed is never stated for the Super-Heavy rules. True, when a weapon is chosen, its target(s) must be already announced and all weapons of a name in a unit are fired at the same time, so a Knight with two Heavy Stubbers couldn't use one on a Trukk and the other on the Boyz inside. However, what is not addressed is if the Battle Cannon or Carapace Weapons are used to decant the Trukk and allowing the Stubbers to chew up the Boyz.

For sportsmanship, one should declare all the targets of the Super-Heavy before selecting any weapon based on target selection rules, and then restating targets for individual Weapons as they are chosen to be fired. This minimizes shenanigans and encourages others to play with you more. However, nothing in the rules requires this form of action.

Maybe I'm completely misinterpreting this debate, but it seems we're stuck between whether to treat the SH or GMC as one unit firing at multiple targets, or whether we consider each weapon on said SH and GMCs to essentially be separate units that can each select a different target.

I'd always assumed it was repeated at stage 2, but I now admit I've not really thought about it much (nor have my friends - I play in a very small, insular group of 4 guys, and have for years, so I actually get confused between what we've generally just accepted as house rules/habits and the verbatim rules). But it seems to me that each weapon on a SH is basically like its own unit, and that target selection should happen in Step 2. But now I'm so unsure of it all. I've been doing it wrong? What is life?

 General_K wrote:
Maybe I'm completely misinterpreting this debate, but it seems we're stuck between whether to treat the SH or GMC as one unit firing at multiple targets, or whether we consider each weapon on said SH and GMCs to essentially be separate units that can each select a different target.

I'd always assumed it was repeated at stage 2, but I now admit I've not really thought about it much (nor have my friends - I play in a very small, insular group of 4 guys, and have for years, so I actually get confused between what we've generally just accepted as house rules/habits and the verbatim rules). But it seems to me that each weapon on a SH is basically like its own unit, and that target selection should happen in Step 2. But now I'm so unsure of it all. I've been doing it wrong? What is life?

The rules do not state to treat each Weapon as a different unit, but that "it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired."

It doesn't go in to any more detail, so any method of resolution would be a House Rule. So from that perspective, you have been doing it "right" since all of you are using the same resolution.

I don't have any GMCs in my army (Necrons), though I do have a few SHs (looking forward to getting a Monolith. They just look cool).

I kind of feel like people are interpreting "it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired" as being more vague than it really is. Taken at face value (aka, RAW), GMCs may choose a different target for each weapon. That part seems clear to me.

The vagueness is in when they choose that target. Are they chosen in the same "Step 2", or does each weapon resolve separately and then go back to choosing a target (step 2). The later isn't explicitly stated in the rules. The rules say to repeat from step 3.

HIWPI is to resolve each weapon as a separate shooting phase (basically go back to step 2) as this feels to me more like the intention of the rule. Like most arguments I see on this forum, the most important thing is to discuss any rules discrepancies with your opponent (and please do so in a calm and friendly manner). Remember that the point of the game is for both parties to have fun.

@Charistoph: Oh yeah, that's what I meant - I'm not suggesting the rules are telling us to treat each weapon as a separate unit - what I'm saying is that the interpretation that has each weapon "loop" at Step 2 would basically be LIKE treating each weapon AS IF it were a separate unit for the purposes of targeting and firing (as in each engages in its own firing cycle of target - fire - resolve. But I think we're saying the same thing in different words.

 EnTyme wrote:
I don't have any GMCs in my army (Necrons), though I do have a few SHs (looking forward to getting a Monolith. They just look cool).

The Monolith is not a Super-heavy Vehicle (Heavy Vehicles are on page 88 of the rulebook, Super-heavy Vehicles are on page 94).

 Ghaz wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I don't have any GMCs in my army (Necrons), though I do have a few SHs (looking forward to getting a Monolith. They just look cool).

The Monolith is not a Super-heavy Vehicle (Heavy Vehicles are on page 88 of the rulebook, Super-heavy Vehicles are on page 94).

The Monolith shoots like a Super-Heavy without the immunity to Ordnance firing, though, so the comparison is appropriate.

In other words, all 5 guns can be fired at different targets. It's an aspect of the Gauss Weapons it carries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EnTyme wrote:
The vagueness is in when they choose that target. Are they chosen in the same "Step 2", or does each weapon resolve separately and then go back to choosing a target (step 2). The later isn't explicitly stated in the rules. The rules say to repeat from step 3.

That actually is the problem and the reason it comes up. The timing of target selection for each Weapon, and multiple targets in general, is not defined at all. Permission is just granted.

I don't see where he was comparing them to a Super-heavy Vehicle, all I see is what I took as him saying that a Monolith is a Super-heavy Vehicle.

 Ghaz wrote:
I don't see where he was comparing them to a Super-heavy Vehicle, all I see is what I took as him saying that a Monolith is a Super-heavy Vehicle.

I actually did mean "fires like a super-heavy". Sorry if that wasn't clear. Maybe I should have used Tesseract Vault as an examples since that is a super-heavy.

I've read through many of the comments, but I'm still confused - one of the core mechanics of 7th edition is that the order in which a unit's shooting attacks occur matters now.

For example, if marines with bolters and a flamer shoot at ork boyz.

If the marines fire bolters first, and kill so many boyz the flamer isn't in range anymore - tough. Next time use the flamer, then bolters.

Similarly, the order in which you fire a SHV's weapons should matter.

Take a stompa firing at a rhino.

I select my supa gatla and shoot at the rhino. I roll as normal, and manage to destroy it. Marines get out.

Next I select my deff kannon to fire. Normal units can't target units that have disembarked from a transport in the same unit's shooting phase, but SHV's 'may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired'. I desire to fire my deff kannon the newly disembarked marines; a perfectly valid target. What is stopping me?

If I have a stompa with two deff kannons, however, I can't do this. All weapons of the same type have to fire at the same time, so I couldn't fire one deff kannon, blow up the rhino, and shoot the second at the occupants.

But if you're using different weapons to do damage, I don't understand why the effects wouldn't happen sequentially. They do in all other points of the game (like with the bolters and flamers earlier).

Except that by the time you are firing the 2nd weapon, you must have already selected the targets for your guns.

 Massaen wrote:
Except that by the time you are firing the 2nd weapon, you must have already selected the targets for your guns.

Nothing in the rulebook requires multiple targets being announced before the first weapon is declared, much less before the second Weapon group is selected.

That the target(s) of the Weapon group need to be declared before the Weapon is chosen is obvious, but there is nothing requiring the target(s) of subsequent Weapon groups being declared before the first Weapon is chosen, much less resolved.

Still, in these cases where the rules do not address it, I do advise caution when dealing with someone else regarding this for the first time. One could end up making a potential enemy of another player if you chose to use the most powerful version of it.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

But if you're using different weapons to do damage, I don't understand why the effects wouldn't happen sequentially. They do in all other points of the game (like with the bolters and flamers earlier).

Shooting and damage resolution does happen sequentially.

However, we have no idea if multiple target selection is also supposed to be sequential or if it's all supposed to happen before you start choosing weapons.

Step 1: Select firing unit (the Superheavy in question)
Step 2: Select a target unit - singular - will come back to this
Step 3: Choose a weapon
Step 4: Roll to hit
Step 5: Roll to Wound
Step 6: Roll Saves
Step 7: If more then one weapon, go back to step 3.

The only thing we are told is that a super heavy may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired.

We are only allowed to repeat steps 3-6

By this logic and process - we have to have selected units to be targets (step 2) before we roll for a single weapons results. All guns are fired simultaneously like any other unit as there is no exception to this rule.

as soon as we move to step 3 (choosing a weapon to shoot) we can't select more targets for the guns

That's a valid interpretation. Would suggest that step 2 merely involves selecting targets or selecting them and assigning them to weapons?

If the former - how many targets can you select? If one of your weapons ignores LoS does that mean that you can pick any number of targets without LoS? What stops you simply selecting every unit as a target?

If the latter - where is the rule support for that?

There just isn't RAW for how to do this. All the various approaches in the end pretty much boil down to these two options:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
There are two ways of handling this and neither has clear RAW support:

A - choose all of your targets and assign weapons to them in Step 2. You then work through your weapons in any order you want as per usual.

or

B - Skip step 2 and select a target each time you select a weapon in step 3.


A is how previous editions have handled it but the shooting sequence has changed quite a bit (different weapons shooting from a unit is no longer simultaneous).

B is more powerful in a few different ways but that doesn't make it wrong.

Scott:

How many targets can you select?
Up to 1 per weapon since each weapon can target a separate unit(it is right there in the rule)

What about a weapon that can fire without los?

Yeah, target with that weapon the exact same way you normally would(why would it be any different?)

What stops you from simply selecting every unit as a target?

Nothing more than the ratio of weapons to targets.


So let's run through a realistic(ish as it assumes a non-cheesy eldar player):

A Banesword with a set of sponsons and the hull heavy bolter vs a Vyper, 2 guardian squads and a seer council.

The banesword has 6 total weapons: 3 twin-linked heavy bolters, 2 lascannons, and the quake cannon.

So we go through the shooting sequence:
Step 1) pick a unit; we pick the banesword(a shv)
Step 2) pick a target; this gets modified via the shv shooting rules to pick a target for each weapon. So we choose to target guardians 1 with both the right and hull heavy bolters, guardians 2 with the left hb, the vyper with both lascannons, and the seer council(who is out of los) with the quake cannon(it is barrage).
Step 3) choose a weapon; the vyper is partially obscuring guardians1 so we choose the lascannons as a tactical choice so that our heavy bolters will not get cover-saved.
Steps 4-7 we know and after killing the vyper we move on the mowing down guardians1 and dropping an apoc-blast on the seers-then cursing their invul save.

Kel's summary makes sense to me, but I"m still hung up on something. RAW clearly also states you choose weapons *after* choosing targets. So, yes, a reasonable interpretation would be that in Step 2 you select a number of targets equal to the weapons on your vehicle; but you only select which weapons are going to fire (and therefore target a unit) after the step in which you've declared a target. So it actually seems to me that looping at Step 3, even if that's what a normal shooting sequence says to do, actually inhibits or prohibits the selection of multiple targets in the way you've suggested.

Two thoughts: first, your interpretation could still work, but only if you merely select a number of targets equal to the number of weapons--but do not yet assign those targets to weapons until Step 3.


Second, another option might be to consider that while we all seem to think we're getting caught up on Steps 2 or 3, I'm wondering if in fact we're actually getting stuck on Step 7. Step 7 tells us to choose another weapon (step 3): but this is also designed for a situation in which a single (non SHV/GMC) is firing at another single unit: an example a friend of mine offered was a devastator squad firing into a squad: they would select their target, select their weapon (missiles), go through the sequence, and on Step 7, they'd choose another weapon: their bolters, and repeat the process. But that's all assuming only a single target (and only works with a single target). One way to consider Step 7 is that it's the 'completion" of the loop. It tells us to select another weapon, if one is available. But this step is assuming there is another weapon being fired into the same unit. So it means, select another weapon if there is another valid weapon for the selected target (such as the Devastator's bolter marines, or the lasguns of a squad after shooting the flamer). Thing is, Step 7 isn't telling us to move on to a new target - it says weapon. And I think the intent in this was clear: it's meant to tell us that this is where/when we can fire those secondary weapons to a pre-selected target. If there are no other weapons assigned to this target, Step 7 is therefore superfluous, and we therefore move on to a new firing sequence entirely. If this was our devastators, once they'd fired their missiles and boltguns, Step 7 would be irrelevant and that would be our indication that we've run out of weapons and therefore are finished with the Devs. We'd then move on to a dreadnought and select a new target, repeat, etc. In your example, this is analogous to your lascannons firing: select a target, select your weapons (Lacannons), go through the sequence, Step 7 says to select a new weapon (NOT target) - but there are no other weapons assigned to this target...so step 7 is irrelevant, and therefore that sequence is done entirely. You must move on to the next friendly unit and repeat the entire firing sequence all over again.

I fear that was convoluted and I'm not making sense. I slept in, and I haven't been caffeinated yet. Basically I'm saying that we're all arguing over Step 2 or Step 3 because we're all assuming Step 7 tells us where we're allowed to loop. But I'm arguing that step 7 is only valid/relevant in the case where you're locked into a single target. The fact that it tells you to select a new weapon and NOT a new target means it's assuming the target isn't changing. This means Step 7 refers only to a normal, non-SHV/GMC firing sequence (where there are no multiple targets).

Choosing a weapon to be used for steps 4,5, and 6 is in no way a restriction on being able to choose targets for those weapons in Step 2.

We have a rule that says Choose a target for a unit.

We have a modification to that rule that says we can choose a different target for each weapon.

Therefore we can easily change this rule to Chose a target for each weapon.

Making this change in no way shape or form breaks/changes steps 3 through 7.

It is also the most logical, because if you have a rule that tells you to change an apple, you don't change an orange instead because it didn't tell you exactly how to change the apple.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Scott:

How many targets can you select?
Up to 1 per weapon since each weapon can target a separate unit(it is right there in the rule)

What about a weapon that can fire without los?

Yeah, target with that weapon the exact same way you normally would(why would it be any different?)

What stops you from simply selecting every unit as a target?

Nothing more than the ratio of weapons to targets.

You're making a connection that isn't in the rules - there's nothing about assigning targets to weapons in step 2. (although I do believe that's the best way to play it)

As I said, if you make that connection (that doesn't have rules support) then those questions are answered and we have a workaround.

Without that connection we have nothing to tell us how many targets we may select or any other limits on those selections so the obvious thing to do is to select targets as we select weapons which gives us a different workaround.

(BTW - you assumed assigning targets to weapons in step 2 and then answered my questions for what happens if you don't assign targets to weapons in step 2)

Step 1 - select a unit

I select my Knight Crusader with RFBC, Stormspear, and hull Stubber.

Step 2 - select a target unit

Since its a Superheavy, and there are three Rhinos full of Marines in range (2 within 36", one just under 60" but in cover), I will select all three.

Step 3 - choose a weapon

For the closest Rhino (A), it's the Avenger Gatling Cannon.

Step 4 - roll to Hit

Throws the dice. 9 hit.

Step 5 - roll to Wound

Throws the dice. 6 pens, 1 glance, 1 explodes.

Step 6 - roll Saves

No save for the Rhino, it's removed and the Marines are placed. Marines roll to save. They all save (because Marines).

Step 7 - go back to Step 3

Since I can't target the Marines, it's all about the next Rhino (B). Since the Stubbers can't glance AV11, and the Battlecannon can't kill a Rhino, it's the Stormspear.

Step 4 - roll to Hit

Throws the dice. 2 hit.

Step 5 - roll to Wound

Throws the dice. 1 pen, 1 glance, Shaken.

Step 6 - roll Saves

No saves.

Step 7 - go back to Step 3.

Stupid Rhino has to Die! It's the Battlecannon.

Step 4 - roll to Hit

Place blast, scatter, scatter second blast. 1 hit.

Step 5 - roll to Wound

Throws the dice. Pen! Weapon destroyed (who cares, it's wrecked anyway).

Step 6 - roll Saves

Marines disembark from the wreck, no saves required.

Step 7 - next weapon.

Stubbers can't glance nor range on the last Rhino (C), neither Marine unit is a valid target. This unit's shooting phase is over.

SJ

the interpretation makes sense to me. Choosing a number of targets for the number of weapons you have (but not locking a weapon to those targets until the targets are selected). Problem is, it's an interpretation, and the other way (this weapon will fire at this rhino. Go through sequence. This weapon will fire at this rhino. Go through sequence) could also be feasible under the lack of specificity here.

 General_K wrote:
the interpretation makes sense to me. Choosing a number of targets for the number of weapons you have (but not locking a weapon to those targets until the targets are selected). Problem is, it's an interpretation, and the other way (this weapon will fire at this rhino. Go through sequence. This weapon will fire at this rhino. Go through sequence) could also be feasible under the lack of specificity here.

The difference is, I followed all of the rules as written, without implying a different sequence from what is written.

SJ

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so what is the concensus?

I would suggest choosing all targets at once. Yes we can get a lawyer and an english major to debate it all, but honestly. A unit chooses a target. When you split fire, you declare 2 targets. Why would super heavy be any different.

Also, with the new ghostkeel snap fire thing, it could make a huge difference.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 General_K wrote:
the interpretation makes sense to me. Choosing a number of targets for the number of weapons you have (but not locking a weapon to those targets until the targets are selected). Problem is, it's an interpretation, and the other way (this weapon will fire at this rhino. Go through sequence. This weapon will fire at this rhino. Go through sequence) could also be feasible under the lack of specificity here.

The difference is, I followed all of the rules as written, without implying a different sequence from what is written.

SJ

Changing targets when changing Weapons is not part of the Shooting Sequence, though, nor requiring all Weapon's targets in Step 2. Any such change is an assumption because the change is not properly defined. It seems to be on the assumption of 6th Edition's Shooting Sequence. It is a broken rule, so any steps to make it work will be House-Ruled.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so what is the concensus?

I would suggest choosing all targets at once. Yes we can get a lawyer and an english major to debate it all, but honestly. A unit chooses a target. When you split fire, you declare 2 targets. Why would super heavy be any different.

Also, with the new ghostkeel snap fire thing, it could make a huge difference.

gwarsh41 and others who agree with him have a completely valid argument. I feel that my argument for the ability to fire a weapon then choose another target and weapon is also valid. The rules are vague on how "can choose a separate target" interacts with the shooting sequence as to when those targets are chosen, so there really isn't a consensus and probably will never be one until GW decides to start issuing errata and FAQs again. Talk to your opponents and come to an agreement, and as I said before, remember that the point of the game is for everyone to enjoy playing.

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 General_K wrote:
the interpretation makes sense to me. Choosing a number of targets for the number of weapons you have (but not locking a weapon to those targets until the targets are selected). Problem is, it's an interpretation, and the other way (this weapon will fire at this rhino. Go through sequence. This weapon will fire at this rhino. Go through sequence) could also be feasible under the lack of specificity here.

The difference is, I followed all of the rules as written, without implying a different sequence from what is written.

SJ

Changing targets when changing Weapons is not part of the Shooting Sequence, though, nor requiring all Weapon's targets in Step 2. Any such change is an assumption because the change is not properly defined. It seems to be on the assumption of 6th Edition's Shooting Sequence. It is a broken rule, so any steps to make it work will be House-Ruled.

Just claiming it's broken and requires a house rule does not actually make it broken nor requires a house rule. Following the rules as written isn't hard.

SJ

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Scott:

How many targets can you select?
Up to 1 per weapon since each weapon can target a separate unit(it is right there in the rule)

What about a weapon that can fire without los?

Yeah, target with that weapon the exact same way you normally would(why would it be any different?)

What stops you from simply selecting every unit as a target?

Nothing more than the ratio of weapons to targets.

You're making a connection that isn't in the rules - there's nothing about assigning targets to weapons in step 2. (although I do believe that's the best way to play it)

As I said, if you make that connection (that doesn't have rules support) then those questions are answered and we have a workaround.

Without that connection we have nothing to tell us how many targets we may select or any other limits on those selections so the obvious thing to do is to select targets as we select weapons which gives us a different workaround.

(BTW - you assumed assigning targets to weapons in step 2 and then answered my questions for what happens if you don't assign targets to weapons in step 2)

What do you mean that there is nothing in the rules about assigning targets to weapons?

Third portion of the first sentence in the shv shooting rules: "...and it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired."

Step 2 is declare target; if each weapon is firing at a different target those targets for those weapons must be chosen at this step. It is not that difficult.

All you have to do is apply all of the rules involved(basic shooting phase, vehicles shooting, shv shooting)