Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As the title says, what if we made Skarbrand a GC? Would the current 225 points be too cheap, would it be just right, or would he still be awful? He'd still only be T6 with a 3+ save, so he wouldn't be quite as unkillable as some offending units, even with the FNP.

YEAH DO THIS. This would make that slow bastard finally move at a decent speed.

[edit]
Wait no don't do this at all. He just needs speed 12 I think don't think that he would actually needs to be able to do stomps and get a lot of extra durability.

I think he ought to be a jump MC with FNP. Stomp is kinda OP anyway, and the resistance to poison/sniper is not necessary.

imo I think everything bigger than a dreadnought should be classed as a GMC.

Then move them all to apocalypse so I don't have to deal with their bullcrap anymore ;P

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
imo I think everything bigger than a dreadnought should be classed as a GMC.

Then move them all to apocalypse so I don't have to deal with their bullcrap anymore ;P

Yeah, because Tyranids need to be completely gutted.

Yeah totally jump Mc with fnp. He's already smashfeth enough as it is, he just has horrible durability and mobility problems. Fix these and he'll be a useful unit.

His wings are still there, moving as a jump would still make sense and limit him compared to fmc's.

right now he's basically a 225 point offering of first blood to your opponent. It's hard to see him as imposing when he will almost always die before he gets anywhere and usually needs more than one combat to make his points in today's MSU environment.

Jump and FNP makes sense I guess, it'd certainly throw him a bone, but will it be enough to make him playable?

Always thought that it would be interesting to make him a Beast MC, since lets be honest have you seen those thights and calves thickness?...

bet someone with those legs and hoofs could run a 100m under 9 secs...

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
imo I think everything bigger than a dreadnought should be classed as a GMC.

Then move them all to apocalypse so I don't have to deal with their bullcrap anymore ;P

I'm cool with this, as long as everything with a 2+ save, a built-in invuln save better than 5+, and anything with a total AV over 34 gets the same treatment. Oh, and dreads get nerfed down to BA stat levels. If Tyranids get nothing but gants, warriors and pyrovores, Daemons nothing but heralds and basic troops... well, then Astartes get nothing but tacticals/assualt/devastators, dreadnoughts and rhinos, as well as grav guns made into pure heavy weapons with Gets Hot! tacked on.

-----

OT I think giving Skarbrand the equivalent of Dunestrider from Skitarii would help a good deal. That extra 3" to move/run/charge is kind of amazing for pure CC units.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As the title says, what if we made Skarbrand a GC? Would the current 225 points be too cheap, would it be just right, or would he still be awful? He'd still only be T6 with a 3+ save, so he wouldn't be quite as unkillable as some offending units, even with the FNP.

If you do that, I'd say he should cost about 300-pts. By making him a GC, you give him:

1. Better mobility - 12" movement.

2. FNP

3. Semi-immunity to Instant Death

4. Resistance to Poisoned weaponry

5. Stomp attacks

No more GMCs.

That's why I said it should just be a somewhat enhanced jump MC. Skarbrand is a big significant beastie, but not a titan-class threat. GCs should be reserved for titan-workalikes, IMHO. (What to do with the Wraithknight and Stormsurge is an issue then, but they're fixable.)

StarHunter25 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
imo I think everything bigger than a dreadnought should be classed as a GMC.

Then move them all to apocalypse so I don't have to deal with their bullcrap anymore ;P

I'm cool with this, as long as everything with a 2+ save, a built-in invuln save better than 5+, and anything with a total AV over 34 gets the same treatment. Oh, and dreads get nerfed down to BA stat levels. If Tyranids get nothing but gants, warriors and pyrovores, Daemons nothing but heralds and basic troops... well, then Astartes get nothing but tacticals/assualt/devastators, dreadnoughts and rhinos, as well as grav guns made into pure heavy weapons with Gets Hot! tacked on.

-----

OT I think giving Skarbrand the equivalent of Dunestrider from Skitarii would help a good deal. That extra 3" to move/run/charge is kind of amazing for pure CC units.

You do realize this was the state of the game before GW went all size-crazy and making huge-ass kits right?

Makes sense, give him GMC for movement and the much needed stomp at T6 for a melee character 225 points is respectable and gives Chaos a much needed shot in the arm power wise, since its Skarbrand he cannot be spammed in the same way a Wraith/Imperial Knight can either. Competitively speaking a Tau fire ling or Eldar Scatpacks will still utterly murder the guy BUT he will wreak face with other GMC’s… Perfectly reasonable TBH

Oh yes, perfectly reasonable. /snark

No more GMCs. Ever.

Yes, because every GMC is a WK /sarcasm

Martel732 wrote:Oh yes, perfectly reasonable. /snark

No more GMCs. Ever.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Yes, because every GMC is a WK /sarcasm

I'm guessing this is directed at me but why, wouldn't making him GMC make him usable but not horrendously 'OP' like the other faction's GMC's?

I mean Martel - he is a T6 dude with 5 wounds with a 3+ at 225... giving him GMC hardly breaks the game, I mean he still is gonna die horribly and cant be spammed... he is gonna die horrifically even with GMC

Matt - (edited sorry for tagging you accidentally)

Well mine was directed at Martel.

He has a habit of claiming all MCs/GMCs are OP and the most unfair things in the game and should be removed because the Riptide and WK exist.

They're the worst, but the MC and GMC USRs are far too generous. They get free AP2 and fight at 100% effectiveness until dead and can't be suppressed like a vehicle. And they are functionally immune to most small arms. Not Eldar or Tau, of course, but those are the special snowflake lists. They get to play.

For lists with no access to MCs at all, this is not remotely fair.

Outside of a scout's shotgun every single weapon you can weild can harm a t6 GMC, with Wraithknights I can understand but you can kill a t6 melee character fine, sure it fights at full strength until it dies but then again so do all SHV's and out of all factions wouldn't chaos be better off with it after all?

And to just put it out there MC's get AP2 for free and fight at 100% effectiveness until dead and yet Tyranids are not exactly known for being 'OP' (outside of flying tyrants)

 Torus wrote:
Outside of a scout's shotgun every single weapon you can weild can harm a t6 GMC, with Wraithknights I can understand but you can kill a t6 melee character fine, sure it fights at full strength until it dies but then again so do all SHV's and out of all factions wouldn't chaos be better off with it after all?

And to just put it out there MC's get AP2 for free and fight at 100% effectiveness until dead and yet Tyranids are not exactly known for being 'OP' (outside of flying tyrants)

You will never kill a T6 MC with S4 weapons in time before it has inflicted catastrophic damage. You need 6's to wound and they get an armor save. They may as well be immune.

If a list doesn't have S 6/7 spam or grav, Tyranids are OP. They stomp BA into the ground like chumps. Because they ignore my armor and fight at full strength until every wound is gone. My units degrade as they take wounds, have to buy expensive power weapons, and get nothing in return.

Martel732 wrote:

You will never kill a T6 MC with S4 weapons in time before it has inflicted catastrophic damage. You need 6's to wound and they get an armor save. They may as well be immune.

If a list doesn't have S 6/7 spam or grav, Tyranids are OP. They stomp BA into the ground like chumps. Because they ignore my armor and fight at full strength until every wound is gone. My units degrade as they take wounds, have to buy expensive power weapons, and get nothing in return.

I’m sorry Martel, but as you have previously said yourself; BA have the weakest codex of all other factions, you do have access to grav weaponry on relentless platforms that you use personally and being part of the IOM means you have numerous ally options. But being forced to play that way… I can sympathize and understand they desperately need a boost definitely but for the moment please look beyond a BA standpoint. Orks can drown a T6 melee GMC with sheer numbers of attacks and powerklaws and lootas, DE can again drown the GMC with poison attacks, (wounding on 6s but still very doable)the Guard can throw enough shots at it to bring it down and I'm sorry but Nid's really dont have a lot going for them outside Tyrant spam and a could of choice formations but I'm sure they can handle GMC Skarbrand . In fact any anti-tank is wounding him on 2’s whilst ignoring its armour save (only relying on invul+FNP) and that’s not even considering grav and destroyer weaponry.

I’m sorry that BA will have a harder time, and that you are being shoe-horned into a style that you do not want to play, but in terms of power level CSM are right down there with you and could use a boost, a gargantuan Skarbrand is a shot in the arm they could really use…

Martel732 wrote:
They're the worst, but the MC and GMC USRs are far too generous. They get free AP2 and fight at 100% effectiveness until dead and can't be suppressed like a vehicle. And they are functionally immune to most small arms. Not Eldar or Tau, of course, but those are the special snowflake lists. They get to play.

For lists with no access to MCs at all, this is not remotely fair.

They're only "too generous" because GW under costs most MCs and GMCs points wise. The mere act of being a MC is not what makes them broken.

If the WK cost 3000 pts instead of 300 it wouldn't be good.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're the worst, but the MC and GMC USRs are far too generous. They get free AP2 and fight at 100% effectiveness until dead and can't be suppressed like a vehicle. And they are functionally immune to most small arms. Not Eldar or Tau, of course, but those are the special snowflake lists. They get to play.

For lists with no access to MCs at all, this is not remotely fair.

They're only "too generous" because GW under costs most MCs and GMCs points wise. The mere act of being a MC is not what makes them broken.

If the WK cost 3000 pts instead of 300 it wouldn't be good.

Well it all comes down to cost vs effectiveness, now doesn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Torus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You will never kill a T6 MC with S4 weapons in time before it has inflicted catastrophic damage. You need 6's to wound and they get an armor save. They may as well be immune.

If a list doesn't have S 6/7 spam or grav, Tyranids are OP. They stomp BA into the ground like chumps. Because they ignore my armor and fight at full strength until every wound is gone. My units degrade as they take wounds, have to buy expensive power weapons, and get nothing in return.

I’m sorry Martel, but as you have previously said yourself; BA have the weakest codex of all other factions, you do have access to grav weaponry on relentless platforms that you use personally and being part of the IOM means you have numerous ally options. But being forced to play that way… I can sympathize and understand they desperately need a boost definitely but for the moment please look beyond a BA standpoint. Orks can drown a T6 melee GMC with sheer numbers of attacks and powerklaws and lootas, DE can again drown the GMC with poison attacks, (wounding on 6s but still very doable)the Guard can throw enough shots at it to bring it down and I'm sorry but Nid's really dont have a lot going for them outside Tyrant spam and a could of choice formations but I'm sure they can handle GMC Skarbrand . In fact any anti-tank is wounding him on 2’s whilst ignoring its armour save (only relying on invul+FNP) and that’s not even considering grav and destroyer weaponry.

I’m sorry that BA will have a harder time, and that you are being shoe-horned into a style that you do not want to play, but in terms of power level CSM are right down there with you and could use a boost, a gargantuan Skarbrand is a shot in the arm they could really use…

Yeah, and DE can go feth themselves against Skarbrand, because GMCs are immune to poison. Adding more GMCs is not the answer for CSM. Making meqs viable in the game again is the answer.

Martel732 wrote:

Yeah, and DE can go feth themselves against Skarbrand, because GMCs are immune to poison. Adding more GMCs is not the answer for CSM. Making meqs viable in the game again is the answer.

Well thats entirely true, poision wounds GMC's on 6's and DE have enough shots to make it count, besides they also have dark lances and disintegrators that would much on it, and in casual setting MEQ are fine with their 3+ armour saves, ATSKNF, combat squads, leadership and weapons options in a casual setting. In a more competitive meta then yes grav spam, bikes, missiles and destroyer weaponry vastly outshine them and realistically speaking these things are here to stay. Thematically, and gameplay wise it makes sense for the fallen lord of all Bloodthisters and second to Khorne a GMC, as he is now…he’s unplayable...but it seems I cannot convince you otherwise.

So Martel, and I ask this with all due respect:
- What changes would you do to make Skarbrand and other slow close combat orientated MC’s playable?
- Secondly, how would you suggest we make MEQ more viable?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Well mine was directed at Martel.

He has a habit of claiming all MCs/GMCs are OP and the most unfair things in the game and should be removed because the Riptide and WK exist.

You know, if the sanguinor was a gmc it'd probably be just fine though.

 Torus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Yeah, and DE can go feth themselves against Skarbrand, because GMCs are immune to poison. Adding more GMCs is not the answer for CSM. Making meqs viable in the game again is the answer.

Well thats entirely true, poision wounds GMC's on 6's and DE have enough shots to make it count, besides they also have dark lances and disintegrators that would much on it, and in casual setting MEQ are fine with their 3+ armour saves, ATSKNF, combat squads, leadership and weapons options in a casual setting. In a more competitive meta then yes grav spam, bikes, missiles and destroyer weaponry vastly outshine them and realistically speaking these things are here to stay. Thematically, and gameplay wise it makes sense for the fallen lord of all Bloodthisters and second to Khorne a GMC, as he is now…he’s unplayable...but it seems I cannot convince you otherwise.

So Martel, and I ask this with all due respect:
- What changes would you do to make Skarbrand and other slow close combat orientated MC’s playable?
- Secondly, how would you suggest we make MEQ more viable?

Poison wounding on a "6" defeats the entire point of poison. You can't wound spam on "6"s and the armor and FNP on GMCs will bounce too many of the few wounds that get through. It's futile.

I have no idea how to make meqs viable at this point.

So Skarbrand moves 6" only?

The WK and the DK and the Riptide are OP because they are incredibly mobile or have so much firepower they don't need mobility (or both). Skarbrand has neither.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The WK and the DK and the Riptide are OP because they are incredibly mobile or have so much firepower they don't need mobility (or both). Skarbrand has neither.

So basically they are looking for the 12" move, the free FNP, and extra wounds on a melee machine? How much is this going to cost again? Oh, and the afore mentioned immunity to poison. Nothing says fair like toilet flushing the Sternguard, one of the few effective shooting units marines have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Well mine was directed at Martel.

He has a habit of claiming all MCs/GMCs are OP and the most unfair things in the game and should be removed because the Riptide and WK exist.

You know, if the sanguinor was a gmc it'd probably be just fine though.

Not really, sanguinor is stupid.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The WK and the DK and the Riptide are OP because they are incredibly mobile or have so much firepower they don't need mobility (or both). Skarbrand has neither.

So basically they are looking for the 12" move, the free FNP, and extra wounds on a melee machine? How much is this going to cost again? Oh, and the afore mentioned immunity to poison. Nothing says fair like toilet flushing the Sternguard, one of the few effective shooting units marines have.

No, the only proposal is to simply give him GMC status, not give him GMC status + buff the crap out of his statline.
And really, if you can't deal with a T6/W5 3+/5++ creature, then the problem is not your codex, but requires a look in the mirror...

Yes BA's are currently the 'have not' of the Loyalist Marine camp. They still have plenty of options to murder even a potentially 12" moving Skarbrand.


Actually, once the leaks start pouring in from the CotW campaign book, we'll see what - if any changes GW makes to Skarbrand. (likely, he gets nothing except shoehorned from HQ to LoW because we don't one of those yet.)