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sirlynchmob wrote:
[

Lastly I see you chose to ignore the on topic part as obviously you have no RAW counter to it:

to reroll blasts "a model has the ability"

So we need a model with the ability.

PE says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule"

so does PE grant the models in the unit the ability to reroll? No, it grants the unit a very specific reroll to hit and to wounds of 1.

the model doesn't have the rule, the unit does.

So... then Prescience has no effect on blasts either since it only affects units ?

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Nothing about models there either?

Sirlynch- you're on ignore. Feel free to continue your proven wrong argument, I won't respond any further, as you haven't shown where my rule book quotes are incorrect, as presumably you cannot do so, and I don't have the energy to argue with a wall any further. The actual rules state that bs6+ means the unit has the ability to Reroll their to hit. End of. You cannot counter that, at all. Ever. You're done, and so is your argument.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:
They aren't the same though, because as you repeatedly mention gets hot notes 1 count as a reroll, while there is a noticeable absence for blasts in this area?

Please quote where I said that. Again

Go back to my quoted rules from both blasts and gets hot. Note they state EXACTLY THE SAME WORDS. In EXACT THE SAME ORDER. All gets hot does is add a >>>>>reminder<<<<< ( in parens ) about bs6+.

So for gets hot bs6+ counts as a Reroll. Meaning, because they use the same words, it must also count for a Reroll for blasts.

Again, don't just keep adding sentences. Cite. Quote. Be absolutely unerringly specific. As otherwise, all I can do is say: look at my quote. Compare to your rulebook to verify. They're the same. That's it.

Fragile wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
[

Lastly I see you chose to ignore the on topic part as obviously you have no RAW counter to it:

to reroll blasts "a model has the ability"

So we need a model with the ability.

PE says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule"

so does PE grant the models in the unit the ability to reroll? No, it grants the unit a very specific reroll to hit and to wounds of 1.

the model doesn't have the rule, the unit does.

So... then Prescience has no effect on blasts either since it only affects units ?

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Nothing about models there either?

Exactly, you are correct.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nareik wrote:
They aren't the same though, because as you repeatedly mention gets hot notes 1 count as a reroll, while there is a noticeable absence for blasts in this area?

Please quote where I said that. Again

Well you literally just restate it straight away.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
. Note they state EXACTLY THE SAME WORDS. In EXACT THE SAME ORDER. All gets hot does is add a >>>>>reminder<<<<< ( in parens ) about bs6+.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So for gets hot bs6+ counts as a Reroll.

agreed, as this is how gets hot defines rerolls.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Meaning, because they use the same words, it must also count for a Reroll for blasts.

Possibly correct conclusion, but I disagree with how you got there (see below).

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, don't just keep adding sentences. Cite. Quote. Be absolutely unerringly specific. As otherwise, all I can do is say: look at my quote. Compare to your rulebook to verify. They're the same. That's it.

Not the same, you are adding words to blasts.

I think we are at an impasse. To me the note allowing rerolls of ones to count as rerolls (of a 1 which causes get hot) is specific to gets hot... even a notable absence for blasts. For you any ability to reroll to hit is an ability to reroll to hit so counts for blasts (as such I'm not sure why you need to drag gets hot into the discussion, I guess you see it as setting precedence?).

Except t isn't specific. It's exactly the same words. In the same order

If you disagree, get your rulebook. Quote here, in full, exactly what you say is different. It's only an impasse because you refuse to cite or quote the exact elements you are reliant upon - literally I cannot argue your stance, because your stance is so lacking content.

The rulebook tells you (strictly, reminds you - meaning this is not specific to this rule, otherwise it isn't a reminder) that BS6+ means you have the ability to Reroll your to hit.the exact same words appear in blasts.

So either BS6+ is a Reroll to hit in both,places , or none. Given it MUST be a Reroll in gets hot - because the rulebook contradicts the "in none" for gets hot- it MUST be a Reroll in both places. Meaning it must also let you Reroll blast scatter.

The only way to disagree is to state that the same words in the same order have a different meaning.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Fragile wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
[

Lastly I see you chose to ignore the on topic part as obviously you have no RAW counter to it:

to reroll blasts "a model has the ability"

So we need a model with the ability.

PE says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule"

so does PE grant the models in the unit the ability to reroll? No, it grants the unit a very specific reroll to hit and to wounds of 1.

the model doesn't have the rule, the unit does.

So... then Prescience has no effect on blasts either since it only affects units ?

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Nothing about models there either?

Exactly, you are correct.

Interesting. What rule can you use to reroll blasts ?

Per the Codex: Craftworld Eldar, Spiritseers allow all wraith (to include Hemlock Wraithfighters) to reroll to hit rolls of one. Wraithfighters only have blast weapons, so it seems kind of out of place for them to be included, unless it is specifically there for withchfire powers. That could potentially help the blast re-roll arguments.

Fragile wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Fragile wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
[

Lastly I see you chose to ignore the on topic part as obviously you have no RAW counter to it:

to reroll blasts "a model has the ability"

So we need a model with the ability.

PE says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule"

so does PE grant the models in the unit the ability to reroll? No, it grants the unit a very specific reroll to hit and to wounds of 1.

the model doesn't have the rule, the unit does.

So... then Prescience has no effect on blasts either since it only affects units ?

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Nothing about models there either?

Exactly, you are correct.

Interesting. What rule can you use to reroll blasts ?

off the top of my head, twin linked and ammo runts.

Fragile wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Fragile wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
[

Lastly I see you chose to ignore the on topic part as obviously you have no RAW counter to it:

to reroll blasts "a model has the ability"

So we need a model with the ability.

PE says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule"

so does PE grant the models in the unit the ability to reroll? No, it grants the unit a very specific reroll to hit and to wounds of 1.

the model doesn't have the rule, the unit does.

So... then Prescience has no effect on blasts either since it only affects units ?

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Nothing about models there either?

Exactly, you are correct.

Interesting. What rule can you use to reroll blasts ?

It's essentially saying that the blasts and rerolls rule has no effect, however we know that to be false, thankfully. It's another proof by contradiction ...

This whole argument is just daft.

Twin-linked has a very specific ruling for use with blasts. That is, anything other than a hit can be re-rolled, further FaQd that all three dice must be re-rolled at once.

PE has no such ruling. It says if a to hit roll of '1' is rolled. You can not roll a '1' on 2D6+scatter. It's not one of the outcomes. The outcomes are a number between 2-12 and a direction, or a hit. There are no specific stipulations about what to do with blast weapons. Therefore, it can't be used. End of.

Ah, thank you for jumping in, having not read anything at all it seems

Tell me, does it require you to be rolling to hit, or having the ability to reroll to hit, before you can reroll your Blasts? The rules been quoted before now, sure you can find it...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, thank you for jumping in, having not read anything at all it seems

Tell me, does it require you to be rolling to hit, or having the ability to reroll to hit, before you can reroll your Blasts? The rules been quoted before now, sure you can find it...

Thank you, I have read the whole thing and it is several minutes of my life I'm not going to get back.

The question is rather irrelevent semantics.


Preferred Enemy

This rule is often presented at Preferred Enemy (X) where X identified a specific type of foe. If the special rule does not specify a foe, then everyone is a Preferred Enemy of the unit. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy. This applies to both shooting and close combat attacks.


Tell me how you roll a '1' when scattering, since '1' is not a possible outcome.


Also, if you wouldn't mind, flick to P158 and read the first non-fluff rule several times over.

So you believe no Reroll bar ammo runt and twin linking are allowed then? Given you never roll to hit and every Reroll out there requires a roll to hit to,fail / pass / roll a specific result?

It isn't pointless , and yes, it is semantics. Because it's a discussion on the written rules. These must be semantic in nature. Because language

So, do you agree or disagree that preferred enemy ormBS6+'provide the ability to Reroll the to hit roll? Simple yes or no needed.

Ffyllotek wrote:
Tell me how you roll a '1' when scattering, since '1' is not a possible outcome.

You can roll a 0-12 on scatter as Bs is used as a modifier (and modifiers are accounted for before rerolls)? 1 is part of that subset.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you believe no Reroll bar ammo runt and twin linking are allowed then? Given you never roll to hit and every Reroll out there requires a roll to hit to,fail / pass / roll a specific result?

Technically, when you roll a direction on scatter you've failed to roll a 'HIT'. The rules for rerolls tells us some models can use rerolls under certain circumstances, so if the circumstance they can use a reroll is when they fail to roll to hit then this critera would be satisfied on a scatter. Maybe?

Also, obviously twin linking are allowed rerolls as it is explicitly spelled out in the twin linked rules.

It is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've read here. But also extremely entertaining. There's no way to equate the two.

nareik wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
Tell me how you roll a '1' when scattering, since '1' is not a possible outcome.

You can roll a 0-12 on scatter as Bs is used as a modifier (and modifiers are accounted for before rerolls)? 1 is part of that subset.

Incorrect. You may have a number between 0 - 12 and a direction. Claiming you have one pair when you have one banana doesn't work.

nareik wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you believe no Reroll bar ammo runt and twin linking are allowed then? Given you never roll to hit and every Reroll out there requires a roll to hit to,fail / pass / roll a specific result?

Technically, when you roll a direction on scatter you've failed to roll a 'HIT'. The rules for rerolls tells us some models can use rerolls under certain circumstances, so if the circumstance they can use a reroll is when they fail to roll to hit then this critera would be satisfied on a scatter. Maybe?

Also, obviously twin linking are allowed rerolls as it is explicitly spelled out in the twin linked rules.

A little incorrect and a little correct. Firstly, you can not roll a '1' on a scatter (as above). Secondly, PE gives permission to re-roll To Hi rolls of 1. Notwithstanding the '1' argument, blast is not a 'To Hit' roll. The first line of the blast rule states that clearly. So, you can't re-roll a 1 To Hit with blast because 1) you don't roll To Hit and 2) you can't roll a 1.

However, you are correct that Twin-Linked allowed re-rolls of the scatter dice and there are some other conditions where this may be done. None of them talk about rolling '1's.

Ffyllotek wrote:

nareik wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
Tell me how you roll a '1' when scattering, since '1' is not a possible outcome.

You can roll a 0-12 on scatter as Bs is used as a modifier (and modifiers are accounted for before rerolls)? 1 is part of that subset.

Incorrect. You may have a number between 0 - 12 and a direction. Claiming you have one pair when you have one banana doesn't work.

Quite right, and apologies for my tone - I didn't mean to come across so rudely!

Ffyllotek wrote:
Quite right, and apologies for my tone - I didn't mean to come across so rudely!

That's alright, I suppose it was a bit of an unfunny joke on my part .

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you believe no Reroll bar ammo runt and twin linking are allowed then? Given you never roll to hit and every Reroll out there requires a roll to hit to,fail / pass / roll a specific result?

So, do you agree or disagree that preferred enemy or BS6+ provide the ability to Reroll the to hit roll? Simple yes or no needed.

Flynotek - can you answer the question given above?

Nareik - the function of a parens is to add clarity, remind or otherwise add information that, if removed, does not alter the sentence

AS such you can remove the ( ) from the Gets Hot rule and the meaning MUST be unchanged. Saying otherwise means you are not following the way the English language is constructed (Note: I am not saying that GW understands this either, but when deconstructing a sentence to parse its meaning, we have to start somewhere)

This means that BS6+ does provide the ability to reroll your to-hit roll. This cannot be challenged. And, if BS6+ does, then PE must do as well - as both require that you roll a 1 To hit first.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you believe no Reroll bar ammo runt and twin linking are allowed then? Given you never roll to hit and every Reroll out there requires a roll to hit to,fail / pass / roll a specific result?

So, do you agree or disagree that preferred enemy or BS6+ provide the ability to Reroll the to hit roll? Simple yes or no needed.

Flynotek - can you answer the question given above?

I do not think this is relevent. When firing blasts models do not roll To Hit. This is explained quite clearly on p 158.

Preferred enemy allows a reroll of a To Hit of '1', and BS6+ allows rerolls if the original roll doesn't hit. Neither of these things have anything to do with blasts, since blasts do not roll To Hit.

Ffyllotek wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you believe no Reroll bar ammo runt and twin linking are allowed then? Given you never roll to hit and every Reroll out there requires a roll to hit to,fail / pass / roll a specific result?

So, do you agree or disagree that preferred enemy or BS6+ provide the ability to Reroll the to hit roll? Simple yes or no needed.

Flynotek - can you answer the question given above?

I do not think this is relevent. When firing blasts models do not roll To Hit. This is explained quite clearly on p 158.

Preferred enemy allows a reroll of a To Hit of '1', and BS6+ allows rerolls if the original roll doesn't hit. Neither of these things have anything to do with blasts, since blasts do not roll To Hit.

Correct. And since every other re-roll requires you to miss a To Hit roll (with the exception of Ammo Runts) nothing (other than Ammo Runts) works. Except for Twin-linked, because that is explicitly given permission via both the Twin-linked special rule or Blasts special rule.

I concur - firing blast does not equate to rolling to hit - this is quite clear.

Ffyllotek wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you believe no Reroll bar ammo runt and twin linking are allowed then? Given you never roll to hit and every Reroll out there requires a roll to hit to,fail / pass / roll a specific result?

So, do you agree or disagree that preferred enemy or BS6+ provide the ability to Reroll the to hit roll? Simple yes or no needed.

Flynotek - can you answer the question given above?

I do not think this is relevent. When firing blasts models do not roll To Hit. This is explained quite clearly on p 158.

Preferred enemy allows a reroll of a To Hit of '1', and BS6+ allows rerolls if the original roll doesn't hit. Neither of these things have anything to do with blasts, since blasts do not roll To Hit.

So the actual rule were discussing in this thread - Blasts and Rerolls - isn't relevant?

You claim to have followed the thread, yet the question of "ability to..." Isn't important?

No, it is important. Because it's the actual criteria used to determine whether you can Reroll blast scatter.

So, answer the question - does BS6+ grant "the ability to re-roll the to hit roll"? I'll give you a clue - the page you can find the answer in has been given in this thread.

Now I've explained why this is important, I will presume further ducking of the question means you realise your answer undermines your position.

 Happyjew wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you believe no Reroll bar ammo runt and twin linking are allowed then? Given you never roll to hit and every Reroll out there requires a roll to hit to,fail / pass / roll a specific result?

So, do you agree or disagree that preferred enemy or BS6+ provide the ability to Reroll the to hit roll? Simple yes or no needed.

Flynotek - can you answer the question given above?

I do not think this is relevent. When firing blasts models do not roll To Hit. This is explained quite clearly on p 158.

Preferred enemy allows a reroll of a To Hit of '1', and BS6+ allows rerolls if the original roll doesn't hit. Neither of these things have anything to do with blasts, since blasts do not roll To Hit.

Correct. And since every other re-roll requires you to miss a To Hit roll (with the exception of Ammo Runts) nothing (other than Ammo Runts) works. Except for Twin-linked, because that is explicitly given permission via both the Twin-linked special rule or Blasts special rule.

the hit/miss isn't the main issue though. because precognition would allow for rerolling blasts weapons. Why some might ask, because the model now has the ability to reroll all failed to hit rolls. which would meet the requirement for blasts as the psyker now has the ability to reroll is rolls to hit. This would also allow master crafted blast weapons to reroll.

Now some might want to make the distinction between a blanket 'rerolls to hit' and 'failed to hit rolls' but I think it's a safe assumption that no one would ever reroll a success, and therefore I'd equate the two terms. I'm not sure that's ever been suggested in these debates, except as straw man examples.

BS6 would allow the model to reroll with blasts, except that until a 1 is rolled to hit it does not have the ability to reroll as it hasn't gained it yet. As you can not gain the reroll ability the model does not have it. I believe this is the intent as well as RAW, so models can't roll for blasts at a -6" bonus, then roll again.

PE is also excluded because the model does not have the ability, the unit does. And you are told specifically what the unit can reroll, and that requirement can not be met by rolling scatter dice.