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Gits + 30k? Colour me purple and add me as a subscriber!

That said though, I'm not sure if you can take a Praetor in a 500pt Zone Mortalis game as they have the Master of the Legion special rule which says "A Space Marine Legion army may only include a single model with this rule as part of their HQ choice per 1000 points in the force."

That said I don't have the ZM rules on hand, so they could possibly remove this restriction.

If ZM doesn't change it and you can't take a Praetor, then I'd recommend a Phoenix Spear for the Centurion. It's an EC-only weapon that costs the same as a power fist and is basically a two-handed power sword that is +1 Str & AP2 on the charge.

That's a good point, I'd read that rule to mean you couldn't take 2 under 1000 points, rather than needing 1000 points to take one. Is there a consensus on it the other way, then?

Given the wording of the Delagatus Consul's Rite of Command special rule I'd say that it's definitely '1000 for 1' not 'can't take 2 under 1000'. "This Consul has the Master of the Legion special rule [...] A Legion Delegatus may be taken in armies below the normal 1,000 points threshold for taking models with the Master of the Legion special rule."

That said, the first time I read the rule I thought the same as you until I re-read it a few times and realised it wasn't saying what I thought.

Fair enough then. In that case the Vet and Termie lists will need a Centurion Delegatus for Pride of the Legion. On the bright side, that will easily get you the points for some meltas or bombs or possibly upgrading the Dread to a Contemptor.

The most recent FAQ removed slow and purposeful from cataphratii and just stated in addition to other restrictions imposed by terminator armour they cannot run or overwatch.

For the HQ situation, maybe a Champion Consul with Phoenix Spear? The Spear is obviously very EC, and if you end up expanding into larger game sizes the Champion is a compulsory choice for the Maru Skara, the Emperor's Children Rite of War. The Champion also gets buffs to his WS from a regular Centurion, and in 500 points would be probably one of the nastiest beatsticks you could find. If not that, then I agree with Para about the Delegatus, which is by all means an excellent 'cut-price' HQ as it gives access to Rites of War below 1000 points

Not a single pic and already at 2 pages.

Looking forward to this.

What pattern of power armor are you using? Maximus from Calth box?

Nice thing about EC is that you can use a lot of 40k bitz with the aquilas.

This should be good. *grabs popcorn*.

EDC

No model. Two pages already.

Well, a very frustrating night of pouring over books, rules and lists. Spoke with Solar_lion about HIS list for the event and of course had all the cool lists that Paradigm created as great sources for ideas.

What I come down to is two main issues....

1) A lot of the more creative lists that either Paradigm or I came up with definitely have an element of risk to them. Potentially big payoffs if you can get the right match-up unit-to-unit, but potentially disastrous if you don't. I don't mind taking risks and rolling the dice like that, but then again I've been playing 40k for over 20 years so I've got a certain perspective on things that my son won't have. I want him to have fun and at least have a chance to succeed in each of his games.

2) I am fairly limited in the models I've got available. I could order more from FW or get the Betrayal of Calth box locally, but if I could make something serviceable with what I've got on-hand I think that would be a better way to go. Here's what I've got...

10 tac marines I mooched from SL's Betrayal of Calth boxed set
5 more marines (probably) that I could cobble together from other sources (the guard for that red scorpion libby + one extra from somewhere)
10 non-cataphractii terminators with upgrades
2 apothecaries
1 centurion/praetorian
2 commanders of some sort (FW)
10 outriders
10 Heresy era jump packs

SL has the neat idea of putting a TL HB Rapier in for a measly 40 pts. As our game will require both subterranean and surface actions... that does double-duty for holding a long hallway or having good range in the open. The outriders would be excellent for the surface action, but I even toyed with them for the underground fight. Upgrading their bolters is prohibitively expensive, but flying around the hallways 24" per turn might be really useful, even considering every move is a dangerous terrain test (on average I'd only lose one bike every three turns assuming they're turbo-boosting every turn).

The only spare dreads I have are a Deredeo and a Chaplain... neither of which really fits the bill.


I have a bit less than 8 weeks. So ordering things is still on the table... and of course I could get the Calth box for the basics if necessary. I was hoping not to spend a ton of money on this, but if something is really needed it'd be worth it so see that my son enjoys his experience.

I thought this would be so much easier.... *grumble*

Are you looking to build a separate list for each type of mission, interior and exterior, or do you want as much crossover between the two as possible to save on painting/cost?

The Rapier is a really cool addition, I hadn't thought about those but yeah, they are dead cheap for their potential. I'd kind of ruled out the Outriders in the ZM list, didn't seem particularly fluffy to have bikes zipping round corridors and the constant DT war a worry.

I would recommend a buying the Calth set to be honest, if you want to expand this force to a full army then it's the cheapest way to get started there, and if not then it's still a good-value box full of lovely models for other projects. If the full box is a little pricey for you, though, it might be worth looking on ebay for the individual parts if you need any; over here at least, the Tacs, Termies and Dread are all selling individually slightly cheaper than their 40k counterparts, so it wouldn't break the bank to pick some up.

Gimme a mo, I'll see about a couple more lists using what you have there and what your thoughts on the last ones....

If you are building this for your son, have you asked him what he wants? Obviously, that’s a secondary consideration, but could tip the scales.

If not details on a specific list, you could propose themes, or how much risk/reward he’s in the mood for.

Here's a quick list, kind of a mashup of the two you liked the look of before:

Centurion, Phoenix Spear, Arty armour, Melta Bombs

Legion Tactical Squad, Vexilla, Sergeant with Meltabombs, Extra CCW for all

Veteran Tactical Squad, Sarge with power weapon and AA, 3x Vets with Power Weapon, 1x Vet with Meltagun

Rapier Weapons Battery, 1 HB Rapier

So all you'd need to order is the Rapier, you've got 10-man unit that's pretty much all-round decent, a sharp and pointy CC unit with melta for blasting down doors, and the Centurion with the Spear of Awesome (why don't my Salamanders/Iron Hands/Raven Guard get anything that cool? )


Got to dash now, but I also have a couple of other ideas based on your suggestions, I'll write them up when I get back.

@Nev: I will, but he has less experience than I do so I don't know that his decisions will be that informed. What I'd hoped to do is present him with a few lists that are decent, and let him select what he wants to play.

@Paradigm: I don't have any problems painting up two different lists since this will develop into a full army.


I *like* that new list! We'll keep that one.

For any more you come up with, assume I have access to the Calth set.

Cool. I'm now trying to put together a list specifically for the outside games, but I'm having trouble getting JPs or the bikes into 500 with any room to spare (Assault squads starting at 250 for 10 is not helpful! )

In the mean time, here's a refined version of the 2xTactical Squad list from yesterday, the aim is again simplicity and hardiness but you get a bit more punch from a Laser Destroyer Rapier:

Centurion, Arty Armour, Spear

Tactical Squad, extra CCW for all, Arty Armour and MB on the Sarge
Tactical Squad, as above, minus Meltabombs

Rapier with HB swapped for Laser Destroyer Array in case you run up against a Dread or similar (more for the outside maps really)


Alternatively, swap the second Tactical Squad and Rapier for MBs on the Centurion, an Apothecary and a 5x Meltagun Support Squad for short-range annihilation on Zone Mortalis maps.

 Paradigm wrote:
Cool. I'm now trying to put together a list specifically for the outside games, but I'm having trouble getting JPs or the bikes into 500 with any room to spare (Assault squads starting at 250 for 10 is not helpful! )

I guess I'd lean towards the bikes... just because they look awesome (I actually bought them to use with my Mantis Warriors).

In the mean time, here's a refined version of the 2xTactical Squad list from yesterday, the aim is again simplicity and hardiness but you get a bit more punch from a Laser Destroyer Rapier:

Centurion, Arty Armour, Spear
Tactical Squad, extra CCW for all, Arty Armour and MB on the Sarge
Tactical Squad, as above, minus Meltabombs
Rapier with HB swapped for Laser Destroyer Array in case you run up against a Dread or similar (more for the outside maps really)

The only issue here is that either the centurion or the second tactical squad needs something to get through a bulkhead (assuming he's going to be running with them). The other issue (ok, so there's two) is that the sergeant of the first tac squad doesn't have a power weapon... so even though he HAS to accept and issue challenges... he's really not equipped to win them.

Alternatively, swap the second Tactical Squad and Rapier for MBs on the Centurion, an Apothecary and a 5x Meltagun Support Squad for short-range annihilation on Zone Mortalis maps.

HQ: Centurion - AA, Phx Spear, MB
TP: Tactical Squad - +CCWs, SG w/AA & MB
TP: Tactical Support Squad - 5x melta guns
EL: Apothecary

Q1: Isn't it 10 points cheaper to make the Centurion a consul apothecary, which points could then be used to buy a vexillus for the tactical squad? Or did we determine that you can't have a consul at this point level?

Q2: Given the above, I'm not sure the sergeant needs AA as he's not kitted out for combat... unless it's to tank AP3 shots. Would those 10 points be of more use elsewhere?

Good call on the Centurion Apothecary, hadn't thought of that. Do that and give the Tacs a Vexilla. I'd still take AA on the Sarge, it's primarily for sticking up front and tanking on the 2+.

Bear in mind the primus medicae cannot be taken as a compulsory HQ.

He can't? Forget I said anything, then!

Yeah, changed when the 7th FAQ dropped a while back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Horus_Heresy_7th_Edition.pdf

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Betrayal_FAQ_Errata_V2.pdf

 Paradigm wrote:
Good call on the Centurion Apothecary, hadn't thought of that. Do that and give the Tacs a Vexilla. I'd still take AA on the Sarge, it's primarily for sticking up front and tanking on the 2+.

How much 3+ shooting is their actually likely to be? Plasma, melta, LCs are all AP2. Bolters, heavy bolters, auto cannons & assault cannons aren't AP3. Are their popular legion shooting weapons that I'm not accounting for that are AP3?

@Zuul: Thanks for those links. Very helpful!

 Gitsplitta wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Good call on the Centurion Apothecary, hadn't thought of that. Do that and give the Tacs a Vexilla. I'd still take AA on the Sarge, it's primarily for sticking up front and tanking on the 2+.

How much 3+ shooting is their actually likely to be? Plasma, melta, LCs are all AP2. Bolters, heavy bolters, auto cannons & assault cannons aren't AP3. Are their popular legion shooting weapons that I'm not accounting for that are AP3?

It's not so much about AP3 specifically, I've just found having a 2+ up front helps keep the squad at full strength a while longer, any 2s you roll are saved rather than losing a Marine; it might not seem like much, but in practice I've always found it worth it. Without any other gear, the sergeant is basically a sacrifice, but I still think it's worthwhile for the added durability.

Ah, got it. Makes sense.


OH, the terminator armor I have is Tartarus pattern... which apparently allows sweeping advance. (according to Zuul's link).

Not only do i love Git's threads, I too have a BaC box set and have been meaning to find a decent entry list for starting into 30k

Can;t wait to see you put some purple paint down gits!

boring rules talk...

I was led to understand there would be purple punch and pie.

Sorry Moonpie, at 500 points, list building is a very high-stakes affair. Worth spending time on.


Picked up Betrayal after work yesterday so I have a wider variety of models to work with now.

I note that no one ever mentions or uses Tartaros pattern terminator armor, it's always the Cataphractii variant I see. Leave it to me to fall in love with something useless. I really don't like the look of the romanesque terminator armor... but it's definitely the "hot" variant. I laugh that in book 1 they claim that Tartaros is the "most advanced terminator armor of the time"... so advanced, no one ever uses it. Way to hit the mark GW.

Got Battlescribe downloaded and functioning. Have put together two lists for Thing 1 to choose from. I'd like to give him at least one more. I'll pour over Paradigm's suggestions again and see what I can put together & offer them to him tonight so I can finally get rolling on the figures.

To be fair, the Sweeping Advance on Tartaros pattern armour (that's what it does, isn't it? Haven't checked the FAQ in a while) is pretty damn potent; there's no ATSKNF in 30k so sweeping is a huge threat to large or expensive units. It gets around arguably the biggest weakness of Terminators, the 4++ is just more popular I think as with no Storm Shields available, that's pretty much the best defence you can get on expensive TDA units. With Tartaros, you need to be a little more careful in how you play them, but there's potentially a much bigger pay-off.

I prefer the Tartaros armour as well, it also allows your unit to run which can be useful, don't EC get a bonus to run moves or something?
Also in the new update cataphracii terms can't overwatch.

Besides if you are playing ZM that ability to get in to combat quickly and wipe out an opponent can be useful since you are not as likely to come up against long ranged ap2, your main worry would be plasmagun support squads, dreadnoughts or other terminators, all of which are expensive pointswise. A better invulnerable save wont help against anything that makes you roll lots of dice like massed bolter fire.

To be fair, the FAQ with the new rule for the tartaros terminators came out very recently. Until then cataphratii was preferable over terminator in many cases due to its better invul save. I imagine as time goes on a diversification of terminator armour armour will now occur.

Well, I presented Thing 1 with 4 different lists. None exactly like the ones Paradigm and I were kicking around, but all had elements and lessons learned from those lists.

List 1: "Rapier & Meltas"
HQ: Praetor - AArmor, Power Spear
EL: Rapier - 4x HB
TP: LTS (10) - AArmor, MB
TP: LTSS (5) - 4x MG

List #2: "Contemptor"
HQ: Centurion - AArmor, Power Spear, Refractor Field, MB
EL: Contemptor - Havoc Launcher, H Flmr, Kheres Assault Cannon
TP: LTS (10) - AArmor, MB, Power Spear (srg), Vexilla

List #3: "Cataphractii"
HQ: Centurion - AArmor, Power Spear, Refractor Field, MB
EL: Cataphractii Terminators (5) - chainfist, thunder hammer, power spear (srg), plasma blaster
TP: LTS (10) - AArmor, MB, Power Spear (srg), Vexilla

List #4: "Chaplain & Fast Terminators"
HQ: Centurion - AArmor, Power Spear, Chaplain
EL: Terminators (5) - Power Spear (srg), Grenade Harness (srg), Power Fist, Thunder Hammer
TP: LTS (10) - AArmor, Heavy Chainsword, MB, Vexilla


Thing 1 chose...



These were all intended to be "underground" lists... I'll try and cook something semi-intelligent for above ground.