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 koooaei wrote:
So, noone willing to play things out?

Scroll up, a guy earlier was interested.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

libby dreads are overcosted. kffs are overcosted.

RIPTIDES AND STORMSURGES AREN'T EXACTLY CHEAP EITHER!!!!
sorry for the caps, but what are you spending your points on?

I don't have beef with Tau as an army. What I have beef with, is the unwillingness of Tau players to look at what's right in front of them.

Riptide is about 200 points, for that price, I could get (using the armies I have):
- A single squad of Sicarians: a 5-man squad of T3 models that barely ever get to use their second wound, 4+ armor save

- A Nurgle biker lord with power fist and Lightning claw with just too few points to give it a single Nurgle Spawn as body guard. 3+ armor save, 4+ invul

- Just short of a single Lord of Change

- 5 Necron Wraiths with Whip coils (probably the only thing that's worth more than a Riptide in this list and generally viewed to be far too good for its points when taken in a formation).

The new codex made god damn sure Riptides don't need that much (if any support) to work. Just take 3 in a squad and boom they're BS4, probably for most of the game because god knows you're not going to kill one of those things easily unless you're bringing gravspam or eldar trickery (so about 75% of the armies out there) because most AP2 weapons don't have the volume of shots to deal with them. On top of that you only need to dip your toe in terrain to get a cover save and contrary to what most Tau players seem to believe, AP2 ignores cover weaponry doesn't come in droves in most armies and DEFINITELY not in quantities to take 5 wounds off of a T6 MC that has a 5++(/3++) invul save.

If I'm looking at Stormsurges, the closest thing I've got to in points is an Imperial knight which has both less firepower and survivability.


Despite what you might think after reading my "rant", I'm not salty about Tau. If I want to have a decent chance to win, I'll roll out a Decurion or my daemon army (and from now on Daemonic Incursion) and that's that. However, I can't deal with bs and people calling a Riptide anything but a good unit that's probably too cheap for what it's offering is clearly bs. I dare you to find a unit (that's not another Tau unit) that's got that firepower (including potential from marker support because as some people said, that IS the strength Tau have) in such a dense package for those points.

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

Grave cents in one game from frontline
Kastelins in a game from miniwargaming

And it SHOULD be insanely durable for 438 points. You SHOULDN'T be able to kill it in one round of shooting or with the same number of points. I will never understand why people think something is undercoated when they cannot kill it with the same number of points. That makes no sense. You shouldn't be able to always kill a unit with the same number of points in one turn.

Because your 438 pts can easily kill 438 pts from my codex in one turn.

Yeah beg to differ on that one. SS rarely kills that many in a turn. And if it does than thats YOUR fault as a player for not putting your units out of line of site.
You know how many points of marker lights you would need to fire everything on the stormsurge? More than 300 addition points in marker lights.

notredameguy10 wrote:
And the point people keep trying to make is you destroy those T3 5+ save marker lights and the riptides becomes BS3 with no ignore cover. Then it is not very good anymore.

here is a bit of a question for you folks. This is what I run:
2xMark'o Commander with 2 missile pods or AFPs, Drone Controller, EWO
Drone Net, so at least 16 Marker Drones, usually buy 2 more for each of the mark'o Commanders, so 20 total marker drones.

Riptide or Stormsurge with EWO and Velocity Trackers.
Commanders = 128 pts each
Drone Net = 280 pts.
Riptide with upgrades, IA & SMS (my preferred build) = 210 pts
Stormsurge with Pulse Driver Cannon & TL AFP (& upgrades)= 405 pts.

So we have 6 marker drones firing at BS5, so likely one misses on average. 5 marker tokens. Stormsurge and Riptide are BS3. 2 tokens to improve BS to 5, 2 tokens to Ignore Cover. That leaves me a single additional token for a single Destroyer Missile. sadface. (oh, and if I anchor - then I need double the number of marker tokens)

so, 128 pts for the drone controller, plus 84 pts for the 6 marker drones attached to both. plus the 210\405 pt dedicated shooter. Comes to 422 for the riptide or 617 for the stormsurge. Out of curiosity, what do the other armies pay for the privilege?

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

Grave cents in one game from frontline
Kastelins in a game from miniwargaming

And it SHOULD be insanely durable for 438 points. You SHOULDN'T be able to kill it in one round of shooting or with the same number of points. I will never understand why people think something is undercoated when they cannot kill it with the same number of points. That makes no sense. You shouldn't be able to always kill a unit with the same number of points in one turn.

Because your 438 pts can easily kill 438 pts from my codex in one turn.

Yeah beg to differ on that one. SS rarely kills that many in a turn. And if it does than thats YOUR fault as a player for not putting your units out of line of site.

That assumes that there is an out of LOS on a given map. That's not guaranteed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
And the point people keep trying to make is you destroy those T3 5+ save marker lights and the riptides becomes BS3 with no ignore cover. Then it is not very good anymore.

here is a bit of a question for you folks. This is what I run:
2xMark'o Commander with 2 missile pods or AFPs, Drone Controller, EWO
Drone Net, so at least 16 Marker Drones, usually buy 2 more for each of the mark'o Commanders, so 20 total marker drones.

Riptide or Stormsurge with EWO and Velocity Trackers.
Commanders = 128 pts each
Drone Net = 280 pts.
Riptide with upgrades, IA & SMS (my preferred build) = 210 pts
Stormsurge with Pulse Driver Cannon & TL AFP (& upgrades)= 405 pts.

So we have 6 marker drones firing at BS5, so likely one misses on average. 5 marker tokens. Stormsurge and Riptide are BS3. 2 tokens to improve BS to 5, 2 tokens to Ignore Cover. That leaves me a single additional token for a single Destroyer Missile. sadface. (oh, and if I anchor - then I need double the number of marker tokens)

so, 128 pts for the drone controller, plus 84 pts for the 6 marker drones attached to both. plus the 210\405 pt dedicated shooter. Comes to 422 for the riptide or 617 for the stormsurge. Out of curiosity, what do the other armies pay for the privilege?

BA basically don't have a shooting phase. So I can't compare.

notredameguy10 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

Grave cents in one game from frontline
Kastelins in a game from miniwargaming

And it SHOULD be insanely durable for 438 points. You SHOULDN'T be able to kill it in one round of shooting or with the same number of points. I will never understand why people think something is undercoated when they cannot kill it with the same number of points. That makes no sense. You shouldn't be able to always kill a unit with the same number of points in one turn.

Grav Cents in a centstar yeah absolutely. A deathstar the entire list is built around.
Grav cents in a drop pod? will never survive the interceptor of a competitve tau list. Even if they do, they do 15 (8/9)(8/9)(1/2)(2/3) = a whopping 4 wounds, rounding up.

Kataphrons I can see doing it, assuming 8+ units canticles, it takes 8 destroyers to kill it(440pts). Though they are royally fethd if they dont get first turn.
Kastelans (assuming 8+ canticles and double tap) require 1000 points worth to kill a stormsurge. It's nuts.

Grav is the direct counter to GMCs so of course it will wreck them, but for armies that aren't Codex Space marines / Cult mechanicus we have issues.

Like i said, If it wasn't for the 50 point upgrade for 8 extra wounds it would be fine (lets face it, no one's firing AP4+ at your stormsurge, well maybe eldar)

Take away the invul, or make it way more expensive and we'd be fine. The base Stormsurge without invul is very balanced in it's cost.

Martel732 wrote:
BA basically don't have a shooting phase. So I can't compare.

**edit** The point, is that the ability to shoot is one that we pay for. Is it safe to assume that you are paying for your power weapons, or do you equip them for free?

**flagged as inappropriate. I do apologize for the modicum of sarcasm in the original message, but it wasn't intended to be terribly rude.

438 pts of marines should be durable, too, but they are gak in 7th ed. The magic of the MC and GMC USR multiplies durability in an unfair manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA basically don't have a shooting phase. So I can't compare.

hippocrite. The point, is that the ability to shoot is one that we pay for. Is it safe to assume that you are paying for your power weapons, or do you equip them for free?

BA pay for shooting, too, but our shooting just doesn't accomplish anything because 7th ed.

Martel732 wrote:
438 pts of marines should be durable, too, but they are gak in 7th ed. The magic of the MC and GMC USR multiplies durability in an unfair manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA basically don't have a shooting phase. So I can't compare.

hippocrite. The point, is that the ability to shoot is one that we pay for. Is it safe to assume that you are paying for your power weapons, or do you equip them for free?

BA pay for shooting, too, but our shooting just doesn't accomplish anything because 7th ed.

then msu.

Yeah. I invite you to try that one, too. It's just too much of an uphill battle paying for models that don't accomplish anything on the tabletop.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. I invite you to try that one, too. It's just too much of an uphill battle paying for models that don't accomplish anything on the tabletop.

.

time for someone to walk away from the hobby then. Good luck selling your models though, I have some SM that I've been trying to unload for a while with no real luck. Try Warmachine, you definitely have the feel of a Legion player that I know.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. I invite you to try that one, too. It's just too much of an uphill battle paying for models that don't accomplish anything on the tabletop.

.

time for someone to walk away from the hobby then. Good luck selling your models though, I have some SM that I've been trying to unload for a while with no real luck. Try Warmachine, you definitely have the feel of a Legion player that I know.

I won't be involved in any new model games.

Martel do you lose a lot? It seems that you are frustrated, it is just a game.

 CKO wrote:
Martel do you lose a lot? It seems that you are frustrated, it is just a game. I think my post on how orks can beat gun line armies is pretty clear.

I'd say my recent win rate with BA is up a bit, but that was from 30ish% BA cost a lot more than Orks, and struggle with saturation.

Martel732 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Martel do you lose a lot? It seems that you are frustrated, it is just a game. I think my post on how orks can beat gun line armies is pretty clear.

I'd say my recent win rate with BA is up a bit, but that was from 30ish% BA cost a lot more than Orks, and struggle with saturation.

The reason you are losing is not your opponent's codex, you cant keep blaming the codex or you will continue to lose. Without proper evaluation of your skills you will never show any progress, do you feel you have gotten any better?

Or do you just blame the codex?

 CKO wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Martel do you lose a lot? It seems that you are frustrated, it is just a game. I think my post on how orks can beat gun line armies is pretty clear.

I'd say my recent win rate with BA is up a bit, but that was from 30ish% BA cost a lot more than Orks, and struggle with saturation.

The reason you are losing is not your opponent's codex, you cant keep blaming the codex or you will continue to lose. Without proper evaluation of your skills you will never show any progress, do you feel you have gotten any better?

Or do you just blame the codex?

Well, I had an 85ish% win rate in 5th ed. So I think I know what I'm doing in general. I constantly am falling short by a squad or two, because of how quickly my models are removed by Tau/Eldar/centstar.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I had an 85ish% win rate in 5th ed. So I think I know what I'm doing in general. I constantly am falling short by a squad or two, because of how quickly my models are removed by Tau/Eldar/centstar.

an 85% win rate? how often did you get a repeat game against the same opponent? srsly, I prefer(try) not to have a win rate over 50% because while it is fun to win a game now & then, I don't have an inexhaustible supply of players to teabag. Frankly, I armchair QB more than I play - the last game I played was my first in 7th against DE, over a year ago, that I lost by 1 VP, in maelstrom.

Sorry, but I theoryhammer more than I warhammer.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I had an 85ish% win rate in 5th ed. So I think I know what I'm doing in general. I constantly am falling short by a squad or two, because of how quickly my models are removed by Tau/Eldar/centstar.

an 85% win rate? how often did you get a repeat game against the same opponent? srsly, I prefer not to have a win rate over 50% because while it is fun to win a game now & then, I don't have an inexhaustible supply of players to teabag. Frankly, I armchair QB more than I play - the last game I played was my first in 7th against DE, over a year ago, that I lost by 1 VP, in maelstrom.

I theoryhammer more than I warhammer, and I'll call BS where I see it. Martel, sorry, but you are oozing it.

I was really good in 5th. That number probably dropped lower than that at the end with Necrons and GK. I'll be frank: a lot of people were using vanilla marines and BA were objectively superior to vanilla marines in 5th. I also had a lot of squeakers against SW that ended on a knife's edge of rolls.

do wolves still have their lone wolf schtick? you get a VP for each one still alive at the end of the game but you get nothing if they are dead?

 carldooley wrote:

 hordrak wrote:
What would orks need to get a chance to beat Tau? 1) Invuln saves. The only one we have is the expensive KFF, and that's covering models, not units. 2) FNP across the board. You can't stick a painboy in every unit and without one orks die easily. 3) High leadership/Fearless. With the current Mob Rule orks kill themselves just as good as Tau do. 4) higher T, so you actualy get a way of surviving the shooting faze and don't get the FNP denied.

I was under the impression that most ork boyz are T4, Tau don't have a lot of Str8 to double out FNP. What is denying you? and why aren't you using cover? SMS don't need LOS, but everything else does. And why not use your KFF? does it need to be on the field, or can it be in a battlewagon instead?

And koooaei? I do appreciate the offer. I haven't looked at Vassal recently. If I do manage to install it properly, I'd be happy to play a game. You build a 1850 tac ork list, and I'll build a 1850 tac tau list, and we can trade and play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't get telepathy. And the Tau can just murder all the other units.

but you do have Mephiston still? and Librarian dreads? And I wasn't talking about BA, which are IoM and take BB allies up the wazoo. I was talking about CSM.

**edit** where can I get the modules for vassal?

If a KFF is inside a transport only the transport gets the invul. I keep my boyz in cover if I'm able to, but if it doesn't block line of sight a few markerlights just neutralize it. Basic Tau guns are S5 so boyz get wounded on 3+ and that means a lot of dead green guys.

 carldooley wrote:
do wolves still have their lone wolf schtick? you get a VP for each one still alive at the end of the game but you get nothing if they are dead?

I don't know for sure. Most SW lists are now TWC superfriends.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I had an 85ish% win rate in 5th ed. So I think I know what I'm doing in general. I constantly am falling short by a squad or two, because of how quickly my models are removed by Tau/Eldar/centstar.

an 85% win rate? how often did you get a repeat game against the same opponent? srsly, I prefer(try) not to have a win rate over 50% because while it is fun to win a game now & then, I don't have an inexhaustible supply of players to teabag. Frankly, I armchair QB more than I play - the last game I played was my first in 7th against DE, over a year ago, that I lost by 1 VP, in maelstrom.

I theoryhammer more than I warhammer, and I'll call BS where I see it. Martel, sorry, but you are oozing it.

BA were actually pretty good in 5th. They had 2 very good builds:

1. Descent-of-Angels Jump Marine-spam with Sanguinary Priests FNP-bubble. You got to remember back then, Furious Charge was +1S and +1I so you where striking before other marines when you get the charge in.

2. Razor-spam/AV13-spam MSU with fast vehicles. Back then, 5th was all about mechanized and BA did it very well.

Then it all went downhill when 6E came out.

The SW were hyper dangerous, but if you leveraged Furious charge just right, you could beat them. Vanilla marines kind of took it in the face, though.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

libby dreads are overcosted. kffs are overcosted.

RIPTIDES AND STORMSURGES AREN'T EXACTLY CHEAP EITHER!!!!
sorry for the caps, but what are you spending your points on?

Riptide isn't cheap. It's about right and if you go crazty on them they can get pretty unjustifiably expensive. It has a definite achilles and its best weapon (in my opinion) is basically an unreliable basilisk shot with really good line of sight. It is powerful AND expensive...as it should be. Dorcing somene to take three in order to get the added Riptide Wing benefit is worth it also but that really eats up points fast.

Same for the StormSurge. The Stormsurge is actually kind of mortal and expensive. I've lost it twice now in round one and i would say that T6 and 3+ armor just aint what it used to be. If not for FnP...

So I know they are powerful WHEN allowed to "do their thing". Like all enemies, the trick is not to put them in that position if you can avoid it. That's a tactics, list building and terrain issue right? But what it isn't is impossible or unlikely. The Tau Empire guy did pay points for a reason. So does everyone. and no one is appologizing about it when the Necron Canoptek Harvest hits the enemy. They paid for that. No one is crying when the Canoptek harvest gets whacked by black Knights. they paid for that. and so on.

If people hated losing less and loved winning more, it would be a more fun community.

i'd also like to point out that the stormsurge is also the only super in the damn game thats vulnerable to infantry weapon mass fire. Its T6, its not immune to jack squat.

Its a super. Unless youre sporting D weapons, no super should die in one turn. Not even the IKs are that fragile, and theyre also a major major threat if you dont have heavy anti-armor since common troops cant even attempt to hurt it while they can attempt to hurt the SS at least (unlikely but possible).
Only reason IKs are considered squishier is because IK have D3 bonus damage threats while the SS doesnt. SS takes more actual wounds on average to kill because of this, but the IK is harder to hurt to begin with due to AV13. Saying one is significantly tankier than the other is a pretty moot argument.

IKs die all the time in one turn. They are quite fragile for their points. T6 mcs are functionally immune to small arms to rest easy. AV 13 with AV 12 sides is a damn joke but in 7th ed.

All I got out of this thread was learning that Blood Angels don't even get access to Telepathy.

Just the other day I looked at the BA FAQ for a friend and I swear it said they had access to telepathy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Blood_Angels_v1.0_May14.pdf

Is this not current?

Last updated May 2014

That's the FaQ for the 5th Ed BA codex (to update it for 7th Ed), not the current 7th Ed codex. The new codex doesn't say they can use Telepathy and hasn't received an FaQ saying they can.

The current codex clearly spells out what powers BA psykers can manifest. Telepathy is not one of them.