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 luke1705 wrote:
8 pages later...I still don't know what the point of this thread is. Can someone explain it to me?

A debate on whether the Tau are better than other codexes or not I think

 luke1705 wrote:
8 pages later...I still don't know what the point of this thread is. Can someone explain it to me?

No. Literally. No.

harkequin wrote:
You see nothing wrong with putting your opponent down and saying they are terrible at the game? That is the L2P argument. You can't beat me, because you need to learn how to play. It's really rude and makes you TFG.

I disagree with the first part of this statement and agree with the latter. No I have never put down anyone that I have beaten in this game and the act in of itself is despicable. I do believe you will not beat me if you don't know all the rules. Its like me saying I am going to beat someone in chess when I have a very limited knowledge of the rules. I am not saying I am a professional I am saying that by me knowing the rules I have an advantage and I am able to see things on the field that a player who doesn't know the rules may not see.

harkequin wrote:
What constructive criticism? What possible critisism could you give the "Codex:Vanilla Termagaunts player" in the above.
It's a metaphor, one player is playing an objectively better codex, and objectively will win literally every game regardless of tactics.

I feel differently I believe tactics can overcome all obstacles. I am not saying I can make termagaunts great but hand me the codex and I can make a great list, but it would require a player with great tactics. Perhaps, that is the point you guys are getting at one codex requires aim and shoot while others have to do a lot of other stuff to be great.

harkequin wrote:
You are right, but that's not how 40k works. 40k isn't supposed to have rock-paper-scissors codexs.If you play orks vs 7.5 codexes it's a bad matchup. If you play guard vs 7.5, etc..
It does make it unfair, all codexes are supposed to be equal. but see poor Codex : Vanilla Termagaunts above.

Complaining about bad matchups is pointless it is a part of every game. You act as if someone is forcing you to use termagaunts, you take the best units that fit your play style, practice with it and refine your list until you are winning on a consistent basis.

harkequin wrote:

Like it or not, if someone plays CSM vs Tau there are only 2 ways they will win.
1.An ungodly skill difference (either really bad Tau player, or Next level CSM player)
2. Some serious dice swing.
This is true and you have to accept it. The point is It's not a fair fight, and you keep saying it is a fair fight, but the opponent is worse than you

That's how you feel but it doesn't apply to me so I do not have to accept it. You are trying to make bad match ups look like an unfair advantage, that doesn't make sense.

harkequin wrote:

Re-reading the OP, I'm spot on. Actual excerpt from the OP "Perfect example of this is Tau. Players who do not know the rules get blown off the table by Tau"

Oh it's my fault my opponent has access twice as much power as me for half the cost, how could I not realise!

Reading this part of your post is a perfect example of what I was talking about in my OP. You are so focus on the shooting phase that you fail to realize that Tau are not good in other phases of the game. The only army that doesn't have a glaring weakness is marines.

harkequin wrote:

Congratulations? You won? People dislike Tau because it's unfairly strong, oh no!
People also dislike 1.Eldar 2. Necrons. 3. SM 4. Grav 5.Skyhammer 6. decurion 7. WKs 8. D-weapons 9. IKs

Did the ITC hit any of these armies with the nerf stick immediately?

harkequin wrote:

You claim to be so much better , and that the secret to beating tau is not being worse, You claim that footslogging orks will beat Tau if I only bring 400 pts of lootas for every 65 pts of his army.
You gave the orks wargear for 1/3 the price in your "tactics"
You failed to account for the tau player not being an idiot (12" scout move, stays still and dies)
And you Failed the math repeatedly. Apparently Assault D3 fires 3 shots on average, not 2. Apparently 2 Bs2 rockits will kill a vehicle. Apparently orks that hare hugging terrain won't be slowed down and stopped from assaulting.

If I give you tactics that have worked for me for years and you don't like them or believe they will work that's fine. Don't get mad at me because I refuse to say that my tried and true tactics are bad.

harkequin wrote:
I'm saying get off your high horse

Are you not a general? Where is your high horse? .

harkequin wrote:
Despite making 2 seperate whine threads for Tau nerfs, saying repeatedly that they have been made useless in the tourney scene despite them placing in the top half very well.

You must understand this is from my viewpoint, trying to make top 8! Not top 8 is not good to me key word being me. So the nerfs makes it harder for me to top 8 and depending on the results of the new poll I will just become another Eldar player.

harkequin wrote:
Call it what you want, you are trying to blame the loser for losing. Not cool.

This is true because when I lose I blame myself, and as a result of this I have become a great player. You will never progress if you believe its not your fault!

 labmouse42 wrote:

That may be the case at your FLGS. If someone is playing Tau at your FLGS, they might be able to be bested by the ork player in the corner who has a deep understanding of the game.

That does not apply to everyone, and certainly does not apply to national events like NOVA, LVO, and Adepticon. There is a reason you see Tier 1 armies placing in the top brackets at those events -- it's because they are the most effective. If just 'using better tactics' was the solution, you would see a variety of armies instead.

Years ago, I used to say similar things that you do. "Anyone can win with anything with the right tactics" I was always the best player at my FLGS.
Then I started attending competitive events with extremely skilled players and realized how much more I had to learn about the game of 40k.
I would like to invite you to come try those events as well. I expect it would greatly change your perspective on this game.

http://www.wargamescon.com/2012/06/wargamescon-2012-40k-grand-tournament.html

Been there done that my name is Chad Knight, thus CKO. I have won several tournaments in my day I don't like to go around bragging about winning. I still want to win a big one top 8 is not good enough, thus the reason why I want Tau restraints to be released so I can win not just top 8. I understand this causes confusion because a lot of people believe them to already be strong but their power needs a little bit more juice to beat Eldar.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
That CKO guy already stated he just came back to the game and has not even build a list yet (Tau was on his mind). He claims he was a very good player, but haven't had the chance to play in tourney yet so in the mean time he will just continue to argue whatever his opinions (rather annoying) on the forums.

I have played in tournaments I have either won or top three in tournaments using Draigostar before people knew about Draigostar. I haven't built a Tau list I have a marine list ready to rock and roll.

harkequin wrote:
If he made an appropriate thread hee would get plenty of advice with little to no hostility.
Title it , "With current ITC trends, What units will most likely stay competitive for Tau?"

I don't need your advice, I want your opinion there is a difference.

harkequin wrote:
Don't make one thread whining about Tau nerfs used to balance the tournament scene.
Don't make another saying the only reason people dont like Tau is because people are bad players.

I never said that, I said if you know the rules fighting tau would be easier that goes without saying including myself. I don't know why you are trying to warp my post into malicious attacks against others.

harkequin wrote:
He straight up said that people lose to Tau because they are bad at the game,

Please find the post where I said this, and do not warp my first post as it was an attack on people only knowing the shooting phase I just used Tau as an example I could have and should have used Eldar.

harkequin wrote:
when as evidenced by the tournament scene, Tau are doing pretty solid POST nerfs. This means either Tau generals are just better than other armies generals because they can win despite the nerfs, or Tau was too powerful, and the nerf has largely balanced them.
It's not the former.

Or it could mean they stayed in the exact same spot that they were in prior to their new codex despite having rules that would push them up the latter but because of bias players the ITC managed to keep them in the exact same spot!

harkequin wrote:
So when he said that it's other people's fault they don't know the rules, its rude as feth.

You are so offended by my post I am going to apologize to you, that is the way I think if I lose I blame myself no one else, you have a different mentality I did not mean to be rude.

harkequin wrote:
Simply he asked "do people hate tau because they focus too much on the shooting phase"
And refused to accept the answer "People hate Tau because they are over powered"

Why are they over powered? Shooting Phase
What is their weakness? Assault Phase
I need to use the movement phase to get in position to charge and hide in cover but it doesn't matter because of their marker lights and shooting phase
Use the psychic phase against them psychic shriek is a thing but their shooting phase

This is basically the responses I have gotten.The majority of players feel they have no chance before the match even starts and, that blows my mind!

harkequin wrote:
I've been on the receiving end of this. People were livid when Newcrons dropped, we sat atop the tier list and it was good, people were upset my army could shrug off every other wound with no counterplay. They were right to be upset, Newcrons were completely OP for a lot of codexes before eldar dropped.
Tau are now completely OP for a lot of codexes , we'll see when the next codex drops.

Can you show me the major tournament that Tau have won? Can you show me the major tournament that Tau has have multiples in top 8 like eldar!

Kenpachi takes eye patch off

Truth of the matter is you guys are being taken advantage of and you don't even now it. You need players like me who can call bs when he sees and has tough enough skin to handle the backlash of the community but keep on fighting. When were you taken advantage of you ask?

Remember the vote of the court of the archon where you guys decided to let dark eldar players take them as an HQ choice? This question became an issue when another codex came out and made them look as if it was possibly legal. First was this a major issue, was the inability to take the court as a solo hq causing problems? What is worse about the scenario is that it was only brought up because another codex got something!

So what happens the vote comes you guys think its harmless and bam they get a 10 point HQ! You just gave the strongest codex which is Eldar an extra 50 points which is ironically 5 points shy of an extra venom for bs 5 firedragons. Did anyone point this out, because I would have by the way 6th place at LVO took advantage of this rule and I cant blame him!

Show me a major tournament where orks, tyranids, guard or chaos space marine (note not codex chaos super friends) have place even in the top eight.

 CKO wrote:
I want Tau restraints to be released so I can win not just top 8. I understand this causes confusion because a lot of people believe them to already be strong but their power needs a little bit more juice to beat Eldar.

Really?
This whole thing was just a QQ because "My army is not powerful enough to beat Eldar!"?

Good luck with that.

Wait... So he's been going on and on about how anyone can beat anyone regardless of relative army strengths (good ol' l2p stance,) and now he's saying that his army isn't good enough to beat another certain army?

What am I even reading? \O.o/

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Show me a major tournament where orks, tyranids, guard or chaos space marine (note not codex chaos super friends) have place even in the top eight.

Tyranids have here, recently. Lictor shame won also. A big un.

Do you know what the list look like ? Also how big was ?

Lictor shame list is easily found. it was all over the net obviously. Was it NOVA? I think so.

As for the other one, which was a while ago but noteworthy:

TYRANID ENTOURAGE
240PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer, Brainleech Worms, Electroshock Grubs, Wings)
230PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Wings).
== Elites ==
45 pts Venomthrope
165 pts 3 Hive Guard Brood (Impaler Cannon)
== Troops ==
235pts Tervigon (Stinger Salvo, Crushing Claws, Thorax - Electroshock Grubs, Adrenal Glands,
160pts 30 Termagant Brood (20xFleshborer, 10x Devourer).
== Fast Attack ==
155 pts Hive Crone
270 pts 6 Ravener Brood (Rending Claws, Deathspitter)
== Heavy Support ==
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
170 pts Exocrine
== Total ==
2000 pts

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Do you know what the list look like ? Also how big was ?

Here is the list

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/40k-unbeatable-lists-lvo-edition.html

It won the LVO last year. The environment was very different back then however, and I don't think it really works anymore.

No one expected Lictorshame though which led to it's success.

The general is also very skilled, he managed to make LVO final this year, losing to SpiderSpam.

The list is still decent, it dictates movement with the amount of spore mines, mucolids and lictors you have you. Flyrants and Mawlocs do heavy lifting. Tyrant Guard were ingenious, easy Objective Grabbers and make for decent anti tank for rear armour 10

 labmouse42 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I want Tau restraints to be released so I can win not just top 8. I understand this causes confusion because a lot of people believe them to already be strong but their power needs a little bit more juice to beat Eldar.

Really?
This whole thing was just a QQ because "My army is not powerful enough to beat Eldar!"?

Good luck with that.

CKO, could you please elaborate on this statement?

I find it ludicrous logic to want to balance your army against what almost everyone considers to be the most powerful army in the game. This is the very definition of the Power Creep, where one codex gets better then the next needs to be better or as good as that until the best army is the latest to be released. Why would you support a business model like this? That forces you to buy or update your army every release or be left behind in the meta. Wouldn't the logical conclusion be to nerf the over preforming armies onto the same level as armies that have had a consistent power level for a long time (The most balanced internally codex is probably Dark Eldar, closely followed by guard) so we actually can have fair, unskewed games that rely on tactics from BOTH players? Currently it's undeniable pre-necron codexs need a miracle or masterful play to stand on common ground with post-necron codexes, to me at least this is a clear message of bad design.

Stop the power creep, stop balancing things off of something everyone knows to be unbalanced in the first place/

But where would the money go? I want the best units possible! Think of the TFGs!

But I agree with you fully ALEXisAWESOME.

 Frozocrone wrote:
No one expected Lictorshame though which led to it's success.

The general is also very skilled,

Theres a lesson in there somewhere for all of us. =)

 Jancoran wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
No one expected Lictorshame though which led to it's success.

The general is also very skilled,

Theres a lesson in there somewhere for all of us. =)

Yup. I played against my mates Tau (6th edition) with my Tyranids, brought Endless Swarm as opposed to MCSpam, 2 Trygons and 2 Flyrants, couple Zoeys for Synapse and Psyker purposes. I won that game quite convincingly, although a clutch 11 on the Buffmanders ld 10 and him running off the board might have helped that victory a bit. Too many bodies to deal with, particulary when they drop 30 S4 shots wherever the Trygons decide to pop up.

Brought same list against CentStar w/ IK but lost that game, let's not talk about that...

 labmouse42 wrote:

Really?
This whole thing was just a QQ because "My army is not powerful enough to beat Eldar!"?

Good luck with that.

I see how it can be viewed that way but it is not the case, I would be the biggest hypocrite if that was the case. How could I preach tactics and at the same time ask for a power boast! Is it a power boast if you want them to leave it as is? Truth of the matter is this Eldar players fear Tau because they know that they can replace them on the throne but Eldar has larger numbers that's why they can squeeze the 10 point hq and get a free transport rule underneath your nose and you not know it. Crazy part is why is that even up for a vote? Was the community wanting a vote or did a select elite who wanted an extra transport for their bs 5 fire dragons want a vote? They disguised it as a rule question? I don't know you be the judge.

My Tau army is going to be strong regardless and more than capable of beating Eldar! Its just that the percentile increases by maybe 5-10% depending on the vote. If the vote happens and the community continue to be bias than I go CAD and use forgeworld units, if the community is un-bias than I use the formation, either way I win! I just think players would enjoy the game a lot more if they didn't have to face all these forge world units. I haven't even bought a model, I am waiting to see if Frontline addresses the issue so I can build a list and not waste money. I play marines and haven't bought a single model so the argument that my army is not strong enough does not apply to me.

I care about the players that needed the power creep but it was taken away from them because of people being bias towards Tau. I will feel the same towards any codex that got hit the way Tau got hit.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
No one expected Lictorshame though which led to it's success.

The general is also very skilled,

Theres a lesson in there somewhere for all of us. =)

Suprise gimmick lists only work one because after the first time its not a suprise

Also lictor shame was pre 7.5 codexs

True. But in a tournament you'll probably only see that list once so you can keep the surprise up.

Ordosean (guy behind the list) had also used the list extensively before hand and perfected it for the tournament. Had two Flyrants to begin with and won a tournament with it, changed to three when two wouldn't cut it.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:


CKO, could you please elaborate on this statement?

I find it ludicrous logic to want to balance your army against what almost everyone considers to be the most powerful army in the game. This is the very definition of the Power Creep, where one codex gets better then the next needs to be better or as good as that until the best army is the latest to be released. Why would you support a business model like this? That forces you to buy or update your army every release or be left behind in the meta. Wouldn't the logical conclusion be to nerf the over preforming armies onto the same level as armies that have had a consistent power level for a long time (The most balanced internally codex is probably Dark Eldar, closely followed by guard) so we actually can have fair, unskewed games that rely on tactics from BOTH players? Currently it's undeniable pre-necron codexs need a miracle or masterful play to stand on common ground with post-necron codexes, to me at least this is a clear message of bad design.

Stop the power creep, stop balancing things off of something everyone knows to be unbalanced in the first place/

Are we trying to stop power creep? That is impossible as everyone has different views on what is powerful. I thought the purpose of the ITC was to eradicate the easy win button when did it degenerate into we are going to fix all of the problems that GW has?

I get it now, people are not voting because its over powered they are voting to try to balance the game,

You guys are bold if you think you can fix everything and make everyone happy, such foolishness! I would laugh but at the moment all I can do is shake my head in disbelief at the audacity of this goal.

 CKO wrote:


I get it now, people are not voting because its over powered they are voting to try to balance the game,

Its pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Not only are those to basically the same thing but why would we not want to play a balanced game?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 CKO wrote:


I get it now, people are not voting because its over powered they are voting to try to balance the game,

Its pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Not only are those to basically the same thing but why would we not want to play a balanced game?

Voting to make 2+ re-rollable different is voting on something that is over powered. Voting on letting Dark Eldar get a 10 point hq I guess is trying to balance the game?

I get it we no longer play 40k, we play Frontline K!

 CKO wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 CKO wrote:


I get it now, people are not voting because its over powered they are voting to try to balance the game,

Its pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Not only are those to basically the same thing but why would we not want to play a balanced game?

Voting to make 2+ re-rollable different is voting on something that is over powered. Voting on letting Dark Eldar get a 10 point hq I guess is trying to balance the game?

I get it we no longer play 40k, we play Frontline K!

Givng an underpowred army a buff isn't trying to balance the game?

Crownaxe it was a cover up so that Eldar when allied with Dark Eldar they could get a free transport instead of paying 60 for the Archon they pay 10 for the court thus saving 50 points!

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
No one expected Lictorshame though which led to it's success.

The general is also very skilled,

Theres a lesson in there somewhere for all of us. =)

Suprise gimmick lists only work one because after the first time its not a suprise

Also lictor shame was pre 7.5 codexs

You can say that if you like. here's the lesson: There is always a new way to look at things and each time new stuff drops, you'd be well advised to learn from it and change.

A good general is still going to be good. Evidence is there. the tools change. dice rolls might go this way or that. But don't be a slave to the endless dogma of the interwebz. There are a lot of fun ways to win if you explore.

Welp, time to begin producing tin-foil hats . Seriously though, after the ranged D nerf I refuse to believe that eldar players rule the itc. Really, there isnt a single army controlling the itc. Just players who want the game to be in some way balanced again.

 CKO wrote:
Crownaxe it was a cover up so that Eldar when allied with Dark Eldar they could get a free transport instead of paying 60 for the Archon they pay 10 for the court thus saving 50 points!

Oh yeah. I forgot all the Eldar list that were running around using Dark Eldar transports instead of just using their already much better units of warp spiders and scat bikes

In fact the top two Eldar lists that were in LVO top 8 they were abusing the 10pt Dark Eldar HQ right?

They did not give the dark eldar codex anything. The codex has them listed as an HQ choice. Some people thought this was odd, and perhaps unintentional. The vote was about whether to take it away from them not give it to them. They choose not to take it away likely because people thought it was not overpowered.

I am confused. Why does your army need anything? Surely you can just use superior tactics and defeat the Eldar regardless of nerfs.

A man once said "the general is everything." Why should it matter if GW or ITC is putting the rules in place?

the_scotsman wrote:
I am confused. Why does your army need anything? Surely you can just use superior tactics and defeat the Eldar regardless of nerfs.

A man once said "the general is everything." Why should it matter if GW or ITC is putting the rules in place?

I have said this several times its not hurting me as an individual at all. I am doing this for our community its that simple! We cant go nerfing things out of irrational fear when it hasn't been play tested!

All of that doesn't matter now as I see people vote for a variety of reasons.

 CKO wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I am confused. Why does your army need anything? Surely you can just use superior tactics and defeat the Eldar regardless of nerfs.

A man once said "the general is everything." Why should it matter if GW or ITC is putting the rules in place?

I have said this several times its not hurting me as an individual at all. I am doing this for our community its that simple! We cant go nerfing things out of irrational fear when it hasn't been play tested!

All of that doesn't matter now as I see people vote for a variety of reasons.

This is mostly about you... 2 whine threads later lol

Community voted to nerf drone factory which has nothing to do with Tau shooting, you made a thread about it that got no where and got bashed. Made this thread about Tau, which we all know is just another shot at ITC, get bashed again.

Don't like ITC don't play the tourney. No one cares if you become another eldar player, wait for the changes and play accordingly.