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The ghostkeel nerf is the only one that makes no sense. Its not even worded badly, its pretty clear its a model by model basis. Unless you sport ignores cover, theyre MORE durable than a riptide but they dont have the uber long range ap2 so you usually dont hear people flip out about them.

Coordinated Fire would be straight up beyond broken if it worked the way its read. Buffmander perks army-wide? Are you kidding me? ML requirements right out the window and then some.
Piranha Wing technically wasnt even a nerf. Theres a rule already preventing units from entering reserves the same turn they arrived. Not the first time (by a long shot) reece has put something in the ITC FAQ that was a straight up rule to begin with.
Even if it was legal, that would get out of hand quickly. The people who dont think its OP dont understand how nasty gun drones can be when massed. A simple 10man squad i dump off my 5 piranhas i run casually tends to do more damage than my firewarriors....thats kinda sad lol.
Yeah, they cant score unless a commander joins them, but who cares? They arent worth kill points, so they cant trigger any objective cards and theyre nasty enough to force your attention. Complete waste of your time but it will eat your face off if you ignore it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The ghostkeel nerf is the only one that makes no sense. Its not even worded badly, its pretty clear its a model by model basis. Unless you sport ignores cover, theyre MORE durable than a riptide but they dont have the uber long range ap2 so you usually dont hear people flip out about them.

Coordinated Fire would be straight up beyond broken if it worked the way its read. Buffmander perks army-wide? Are you kidding me? ML requirements right out the window and then some.
Piranha Wing technically wasnt even a nerf. Theres a rule already preventing units from entering reserves the same turn they arrived. Not the first time (by a long shot) reece has put something in the ITC FAQ that was a straight up rule to begin with.
Even if it was legal, that would get out of hand quickly. The people who dont think its OP dont understand how nasty gun drones can be when massed. A simple 10man squad i dump off my 5 piranhas i run casually tends to do more damage than my firewarriors....thats kinda sad lol.
Yeah, they cant score unless a commander joins them, but who cares? They arent worth kill points, so they cant trigger any objective cards and theyre nasty enough to force your attention. Complete waste of your time but it will eat your face off if you ignore it.

Can you build this scary drone list? I can almost promise you it will not have more than 1 unit of 5 piranhas, and at that point its not a true drone factory.

Although I dont plan on using the piranha formation as it is weak with or without the ruling.

I don't know why you keep saying anything less than a certain number of piranhas is not a "true drone factory". Its a formation that makes tons of drones, people refer to it as a drone factory. It is a nickname, not something that arises from a set number of models made per turn.

How many piranhas does it have to have to be a true drone factory? It has to be able to create a large amount of drones in order to be a drone factory, right?

No Its just a nickname for the formation

Name without meaning if there is no data or facts behind it! Lucky for us Nova is allowing it and we will see if it is broken I am sure someone will bring it only to realize how weak it is maybe as a complimentary to an army is the best it can do 360 points for drones is not a good deal add another 224 for the drone network at this point your getting low on points, trust me its not OP, the average player will struggle against it so I understand the fear factor.

Still waiting for a tau vs foot orks match =(

Its a nickname not a scientific name. Seriously like communities don't get together and look over a bunch of data and then give something a nickname they just happen. It's not hard to imagine how this nickname came up. Its a formation that makes drones, hence drone factory.

Like are you gonna go up to somebody saying they are running a cent star and tell them it isn't technically a cent star because they are only running 4 centurions not 6. There is no scientific, or regulated way to determine what is and is not a centstar. Its just a nickname.

Let me rephrase the question, how many drones per turn is to many?

 koooaei wrote:
Still waiting for a tau vs foot orks match =(

I just did that last night. used the Tidewall Rampart which was fun. My Fire Warriors were heroic, slaying his Stompa. hehehe.

 CKO wrote:
Let me rephrase the question, how many drones per turn is to many?

That's not a rephrasing of the question that is an entirely different question.

 coblen wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Let me rephrase the question, how many drones per turn is to many?

That's not a rephrasing of the question that is an entirely different question.

Well answer it, you obviously understand what I am talking about! I applaud your political skills and ability to dance around the question.

 CKO wrote:

 coblen wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Let me rephrase the question, how many drones per turn is to many?

That's not a rephrasing of the question that is an entirely different question.

Well answer it, you obviously understand what I am talking about! I applaud your political skills and ability to dance around the question.

Its not me dancing around the question. Its me not letting you change the conversation. The question was "How many piranhas does it have to have to be a true drone factory?". The answer is still none because it is a nickname to a formation, not a scientific description.

 coblen wrote:

 CKO wrote:

 coblen wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Let me rephrase the question, how many drones per turn is to many?

That's not a rephrasing of the question that is an entirely different question.

Well answer it, you obviously understand what I am talking about! I applaud your political skills and ability to dance around the question.

Its not me dancing around the question. Its me not letting you change the conversation. The question was "How many piranhas does it have to have to be a true drone factory?". The answer is still none because it is a nickname to a formation, not a scientific description.

Just say you dont know!

 CKO wrote:

 coblen wrote:

 CKO wrote:

 coblen wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Let me rephrase the question, how many drones per turn is to many?

That's not a rephrasing of the question that is an entirely different question.

Well answer it, you obviously understand what I am talking about! I applaud your political skills and ability to dance around the question.

Its not me dancing around the question. Its me not letting you change the conversation. The question was "How many piranhas does it have to have to be a true drone factory?". The answer is still none because it is a nickname to a formation, not a scientific description.

Just say you dont know!

How many spiders are a scarab farm?
Scarab farming refers to the tactic, not a discrete amount.

 =Angel= wrote:

 CKO wrote:

 coblen wrote:

 CKO wrote:

 coblen wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Let me rephrase the question, how many drones per turn is to many?

That's not a rephrasing of the question that is an entirely different question.

Well answer it, you obviously understand what I am talking about! I applaud your political skills and ability to dance around the question.

Its not me dancing around the question. Its me not letting you change the conversation. The question was "How many piranhas does it have to have to be a true drone factory?". The answer is still none because it is a nickname to a formation, not a scientific description.

Just say you dont know!

How many spiders are a scarab farm?
Scarab farming refers to the tactic, not a discrete amount.

I am not afraid to admit I dont know what would you consider a scarab farm.

Wowow.

How many piranhas In a drone factory?

However many a given list has that depends on making drones...

Lists can be different! (Though I realize net listing tends to mitigate this somewhat).

What is a "drone factory" or "daemon factory" here is not the same as in Caifornia I bet.

 CKO wrote:

Can you build this scary drone list? I can almost promise you it will not have more than 1 unit of 5 piranhas, and at that point its not a true drone factory.

 CKO wrote:

I am not afraid to admit I dont know what would you consider a scarab farm.

You do know, definitively, what a true drone factory is and is not but can't figure out what I, a 40k player, would consider a scarab farm.
That's all to do with player choice though (I would only ever choose to bring 3 Riptides, I'm a casual!) and none of that's really relevant to the discussion of how a broken codex should be balanced for tournament play.

 Jancoran wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Still waiting for a tau vs foot orks match =(

I just did that last night. used the Tidewall Rampart which was fun. My Fire Warriors were heroic, slaying his Stompa. hehehe.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that that was for me. I said I'd play a vassal match against him. koooaei, one of the links you sent me was infected. I'm fixing my computer now.

i wouldnt run a piranha wing for the sheer fact that i dont want that many piranhas. I could technically do it with my current 5 piranhas but nah i prefer to keep my mobile wall. They + the 10 drones usually keep my army safe from charges for 3 turns on average.

I have avoided posting in this thread until now, but I suppose I must finally take the bait.

OP, most of your arguments thus far can be succinctly summarized as "L2P, git gud scrub". When presented with evidence to the contrary, you either provide biased examples or move the goalposts for disproving your argument.

I don't hate Tau. I hate the kind of players that Tau brings, the ones with a genuine sense of entitlement that their army should simply be better than the rest. Screw game balance, I've got mine and you should just wait around until you get your army's overpowered buff. This doesn't apply to all Tau players naturally, but the OP is certainly one of them.

The OP claims that the ITC is biased against Tau in favor of Eldar and Space Marines. Nothing could be further from the truth. Teh ranged D restrictions in the ITC were a direct result of the new Eldar codex dropping. Warp Spiders are nerfed, and Scatbikers were almost nerfed. If put to a vote, I would vote to nerf Scatbikers because I believe that they are bad for the balance of the game as a whole. The Allies shenanigans that the Imperium can pull off are nerfed by source and detachment restrictions.

The conspiracy theory that DE were left alone to make Eldar more powerful doesn't hold up either. Sure, DE can take a 10 point HQ. This unit also has only one wound, and unimpressive statline, and a 5+ armour save. Not exactly the height of game-breaking power.

I think that the OP has fundamentally misunderstood the concept behind groups like the ITC and NOVA. They are not there to be biased against certain armies. They exist to allow most every army to at least be able to show up and have fun at their tournaments, even if they have no shot at winning. Winners are decided primarily by player skill and luck of the dice. Tau are nerfed, along wiht others, to create a more inclusive environment at tournaments.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
I have avoided posting in this thread until now, but I suppose I must finally take the bait.

OP, most of your arguments thus far can be succinctly summarized as "L2P, git gud scrub". When presented with evidence to the contrary, you either provide biased examples or move the goalposts for disproving your argument.

I don't hate Tau. I hate the kind of players that Tau brings, the ones with a genuine sense of entitlement that their army should simply be better than the rest. Screw game balance, I've got mine and you should just wait around until you get your army's overpowered buff. This doesn't apply to all Tau players naturally, but the OP is certainly one of them.

The OP claims that the ITC is biased against Tau in favor of Eldar and Space Marines. Nothing could be further from the truth. Teh ranged D restrictions in the ITC were a direct result of the new Eldar codex dropping. Warp Spiders are nerfed, and Scatbikers were almost nerfed. If put to a vote, I would vote to nerf Scatbikers because I believe that they are bad for the balance of the game as a whole. The Allies shenanigans that the Imperium can pull off are nerfed by source and detachment restrictions.

The conspiracy theory that DE were left alone to make Eldar more powerful doesn't hold up either. Sure, DE can take a 10 point HQ. This unit also has only one wound, and unimpressive statline, and a 5+ armour save. Not exactly the height of game-breaking power.

I think that the OP has fundamentally misunderstood the concept behind groups like the ITC and NOVA. They are not there to be biased against certain armies. They exist to allow most every army to at least be able to show up and have fun at their tournaments, even if they have no shot at winning. Winners are decided primarily by player skill and luck of the dice. Tau are nerfed, along wiht others, to create a more inclusive environment at tournaments.

Also, don't forget that battle companies were single-target nerfed without a vote by moving the purge mission up to round 3 and returning the tertiaries to the normal fb,lb,stw. They used to sneak through round 2 purge by winning 7-4 with maelstrom plus objective-based tertiaries, while having a good chance of still having an easy opponent. Now the chances of an easy opponent are hilariously lower, and all the opponent needs to do is snag first blood, linebreak at the end of the game, and not get tabled and the battleco literally can't win.

Can we get a mod to lock this thread please? There's literally no tactics discussion here other than a couple people arguing "More players need to L2P, their armies aren't bad, they just suck as generals!", people complaining about the ITC Tau rulings (not the place for it) and people taking shots at each other/posting snarky replies.

This was entertaining, but it's been 11 pages of just a mess.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 CKO wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Don't be TFG. Acknowledge that your codex is top tier. Eldar / necron and SM players acknowledge it. You should too.

I am not trying to deny which armies are top tier I am saying that they all can be beat with superior tactics

That may be the case at your FLGS. If someone is playing Tau at your FLGS, they might be able to be bested by the ork player in the corner who has a deep understanding of the game.

That does not apply to everyone, and certainly does not apply to national events like NOVA, LVO, and Adepticon. There is a reason you see Tier 1 armies placing in the top brackets at those events -- it's because they are the most effective. If just 'using better tactics' was the solution, you would see a variety of armies instead.

Years ago, I used to say similar things that you do. "Anyone can win with anything with the right tactics" I was always the best player at my FLGS.
Then I started attending competitive events with extremely skilled players and realized how much more I had to learn about the game of 40k.
I would like to invite you to come try those events as well. I expect it would greatly change your perspective on this game.

Quoted for truth. Haha.

When I first started playing two and half years ago I was bad. No doubt about it. After a year or so, I won 2-3 local tournaments at my FLGS and I was like "damn, I'm getting pretty good at this game".

About 3 months after that, 2 gentleman that have been playing for over 12 years and attended hundreds of small or large GTs over the years came in and swept everyone in my gaming group. We got their names and numbers and we invited them over to our weekly games. 2 years later we're all still playing together. The two new additions to the group suggested that we try out NovaOpen 2014. We did and I did the best out of our original gaming group at Rank 150+? Haha. I was embarrassed but I had a blast. This past year at NovaOpen 2015 I placed Rank 45 (mid 40s). Definitely improved and got better but I still have tons to learn.

I have been following this post from the beginning and I feel like it's a lot of back and forward with personal attacks and literally reading each others posts in the worst light possible. I believe that both sides have valid points but they fail to express themselves correct.

In my personal opinion, the top tier armies keep getting top8 at GTs because they are good. They are simply better and have better rules. Other armies, like Orks, CAN win, but they have to use superior tactics in order to win against the top tier codexes. That being said, all top tier players are exactly that, top tier. They aren't going to let Orks beat them when they have a better codex backing them up. Both sides of the argument in this post can be right, stop reading the posts as if the other person can't be right because you both are.

Saythings wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 CKO wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Don't be TFG. Acknowledge that your codex is top tier. Eldar / necron and SM players acknowledge it. You should too.

I am not trying to deny which armies are top tier I am saying that they all can be beat with superior tactics

That may be the case at your FLGS. If someone is playing Tau at your FLGS, they might be able to be bested by the ork player in the corner who has a deep understanding of the game.

That does not apply to everyone, and certainly does not apply to national events like NOVA, LVO, and Adepticon. There is a reason you see Tier 1 armies placing in the top brackets at those events -- it's because they are the most effective. If just 'using better tactics' was the solution, you would see a variety of armies instead.

Years ago, I used to say similar things that you do. "Anyone can win with anything with the right tactics" I was always the best player at my FLGS.
Then I started attending competitive events with extremely skilled players and realized how much more I had to learn about the game of 40k.
I would like to invite you to come try those events as well. I expect it would greatly change your perspective on this game.

Quoted for truth. Haha.

When I first started playing two and half years ago I was bad. No doubt about it. After a year or so, I won 2-3 local tournaments at my FLGS and I was like "damn, I'm getting pretty good at this game".

About 3 months after that, 2 gentleman that have been playing for over 12 years and attended hundreds of small or large GTs over the years came in and swept everyone in my gaming group. We got their names and numbers and we invited them over to our weekly games. 2 years later we're all still playing together. The two new additions to the group suggested that we try out NovaOpen 2014. We did and I did the best out of our original gaming group at Rank 150+? Haha. I was embarrassed but I had a blast. This past year at NovaOpen 2015 I placed Rank 45 (mid 40s). Definitely improved and got better but I still have tons to learn.

I have been following this post from the beginning and I feel like it's a lot of back and forward with personal attacks and literally reading each others posts in the worst light possible. I believe that both sides have valid points but they fail to express themselves correct.

In my personal opinion, the top tier armies keep getting top8 at GTs because they are good. They are simply better and have better rules. Other armies, like Orks, CAN win, but they have to use superior tactics in order to win against the top tier codexes. That being said, all top tier players are exactly that, top tier. They aren't going to let Orks beat them when they have a better codex backing them up. Both sides of the argument in this post can be right, stop reading the posts as if the other person can't be right because you both are.

I agree that this post has devolved into personal attacks, you all have to admit, its amusing when forum posts turn into "The real housewives of dakka dakka" the past few weeks its mostly been Tau players. Not to say all Tau players are a pain in the ass but come on. If you got nerfed to gak and 2 players of your army still ranked around 8th in that bloody tournament then you can't complain, let alone write countless bitchy threads and flood the general discussion with "boycott the tournament" or "look at this injustice!" I mean am I the only one who thinks that is a bit immature?

Reavas wrote:

Saythings wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 CKO wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Don't be TFG. Acknowledge that your codex is top tier. Eldar / necron and SM players acknowledge it. You should too.

I am not trying to deny which armies are top tier I am saying that they all can be beat with superior tactics

That may be the case at your FLGS. If someone is playing Tau at your FLGS, they might be able to be bested by the ork player in the corner who has a deep understanding of the game.

That does not apply to everyone, and certainly does not apply to national events like NOVA, LVO, and Adepticon. There is a reason you see Tier 1 armies placing in the top brackets at those events -- it's because they are the most effective. If just 'using better tactics' was the solution, you would see a variety of armies instead.

Years ago, I used to say similar things that you do. "Anyone can win with anything with the right tactics" I was always the best player at my FLGS.
Then I started attending competitive events with extremely skilled players and realized how much more I had to learn about the game of 40k.
I would like to invite you to come try those events as well. I expect it would greatly change your perspective on this game.

Quoted for truth. Haha.

When I first started playing two and half years ago I was bad. No doubt about it. After a year or so, I won 2-3 local tournaments at my FLGS and I was like "damn, I'm getting pretty good at this game".

About 3 months after that, 2 gentleman that have been playing for over 12 years and attended hundreds of small or large GTs over the years came in and swept everyone in my gaming group. We got their names and numbers and we invited them over to our weekly games. 2 years later we're all still playing together. The two new additions to the group suggested that we try out NovaOpen 2014. We did and I did the best out of our original gaming group at Rank 150+? Haha. I was embarrassed but I had a blast. This past year at NovaOpen 2015 I placed Rank 45 (mid 40s). Definitely improved and got better but I still have tons to learn.

I have been following this post from the beginning and I feel like it's a lot of back and forward with personal attacks and literally reading each others posts in the worst light possible. I believe that both sides have valid points but they fail to express themselves correct.

In my personal opinion, the top tier armies keep getting top8 at GTs because they are good. They are simply better and have better rules. Other armies, like Orks, CAN win, but they have to use superior tactics in order to win against the top tier codexes. That being said, all top tier players are exactly that, top tier. They aren't going to let Orks beat them when they have a better codex backing them up. Both sides of the argument in this post can be right, stop reading the posts as if the other person can't be right because you both are.

I agree that this post has devolved into personal attacks, you all have to admit, its amusing when forum posts turn into "The real housewives of dakka dakka" the past few weeks its mostly been Tau players. Not to say all Tau players are a pain in the ass but come on. If you got nerfed to gak and 2 players of your army still ranked around 8th in that bloody tournament then you can't complain, let alone write countless bitchy threads and flood the general discussion with "boycott the tournament" or "look at this injustice!" I mean am I the only one who thinks that is a bit immature?

Top Tau ranks were 12 and 18. I wouldn't exactly call that exactly amazing.

notredameguy10 wrote:
Top Tau ranks were 12 and 18. I wouldn't exactly call that exactly amazing.

What were top Ork ranks?
How about SoB? Blood Angels? Harlequins? CSM? Dark Eldar?

Tau are far from the bottom

notredameguy10 wrote:


Top Tau ranks were 12 and 18. I wouldn't exactly call that exactly amazing.

Yeah it is amazing. Considering the 8th spot was a a 3 way tie with 9th and 10th place That means Tau was two spots away from qualifying for Top 8. Not only that but considering how luck based 40k tounraments are (maelstrome objectives, match ups, dice rolls) pretty much anyone if the top 24 would have been able to make it to Top 8 if they were just a little luckier

War Convocation did worse than Tau too.

FLG is planning on doing a vote for the Tau stuff, they only made a ruling for the tournament.

Y'all need to cool it.

Pff this post is nothing but personal attacks and claims.

As a tau player myself I feel that ITC doesn't like in its current state. I can understand where they are coming from but doing all this nerfes without real testing just feels wrong to me. I have to admit tau where getting an awesome boost in a meta that already skewed towards shooting. However with this lots of nerds I see against tau i just feel they are biased. Focus on the word feel! Nobody likes that there toys/good tactics are removed or adapted, especially if you have been practicing and relying on certain techniques.

No I am not a cheese monger I play to have the most fun. That's means for me and my opponent. So I play friendly versions of the rules. I understand the hate issues that the OP tries to address and I agree with his statement that people just don't like tau by default that makes me a sad fish:( I just walk in with tau people are like not this army again. Anyway just wanted to share my thoughts. Hope they close the post soon..