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 the Signless wrote:
Well this has been a. . . disappointment to put it politely.

Is this just a one off release with a single supplement or is there more ork stuff coming, like say a campaign book? Is there any hope at all for my poor horde?

Seems like they pushed out some updates for the supplements for unknown reasons. No word on anything big for the Orks but I'm sure we will see an Ork campaign release when GW wants a part 1 punching bag to warm up the heroes before the real threat shows up in part 2.

Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
Also Does the New Kill Mob have have the DA BOSS IZ WATCHING and DA BIGGEST AN' DA BEST rules ?

It was part of the Sanctus reach formations, so didnt have it originally.

Very good question. I am wondering what the rules are for that as well as the WAAAGGGHH band. I hope they got some nice bonuses. As it stands the waaggghh band old rules (ork warband) are entirely worthless when used in the decurion.

I am also curious as to what relics can be used for these formations.

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:If they didnt gain the grot turd rules (Da boss iz watchin and Biggest an'da best), the Goff Kill Mob I may run out side the orkcurion.

It says in the main rules for the supplement that all formations and detachments from the supplement get Da boss is watching and Da biggest an da best rules.
This is one of those things that make the formation datasheets seem so poorly handled. For some of the old formations someone copypaste in those rules under special rules. Even the blitz brigade got these rules even though they are not affected by them. But some of the newly added formations as the Waaagh band and Goff killmob they didn't have the time to copypaste in those rules. But they still got em according to the supplements main rules.

You can choose relics both from Waagh Ghazkull and codex orks now.

warhead01 wrote:Any word on the Green tide?

The Green tide is out. I repeat, they killed of the Green tide. :(

Yikes. Wonder what caused them to drop the Green tide.
Maybe the horde would be better by being more flexible?
I'm not thrilled to be so forced to change how I play.
Maybe it just seems like a bigger thing than it is?

Well, I will say that the email I got from gw for the updated download said the rules from the previous supplement were still valid. Granted they aren't available anymore but they are still valid...

Original codex has the Ork Warband, not Green Tide. Green Tide is definitely in the original suppliment. I imagine since this is such an ungodly bad write they probably forgot about green tide.

Green Tide would be another core if it still exists. 1 warboss + 10 boyz all forming 1 unit. Quite frankly i dont know how people run it....10man squads with nob + klaw and the warboss with 'eavy armor, big bosspole, pk being ~100 its over 1000pts of boyz that cannot get speedier.
Ive tried running a list with them. Not enough points for another formation that's useful, and by the time i add in the troop/HQ requirements in a CAD (which also gives me a painboy for the greentide) i have nowhere near enough points for a proper supporting list (deffkoptas, warbikes, MANz missiles, lobbas, etc)

Maybe they'll put it in the white Dwarf like they did with the Looted vehicle...

It doesn't matter what our analysis of this is on paper, or our first reactions. The internet has been wrong when predicting the competitive viability 100% of the time a new army/detachment/codex is released.

That said, I like the Khorne Demonkin, and now Wulfen and Ork updates, because it's giving us armies that can reliably get into combat with speed. This is good for fighting against a shooty-dominant 7th edition. A little something for every play style.

These Ork formations are a good value, because there are models and special rules included for free.

 brassangel wrote:
It doesn't matter what our analysis of this is on paper, or our first reactions. The internet has been wrong when predicting the competitive viability 100% of the time a new army/detachment/codex is released

The less apt a man is to make declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in hindsight.

So it's possible to fit in the Waagh horde and the Council + deffkopta at 1850. But it seems like it's constructed for 2000-3000p games more than anything else. Probably unintentional as they didn't even read through the book before publishing it.

 warhead01 wrote:
Yikes. Wonder what caused them to drop the Green tide.
Maybe the horde would be better by being more flexible?
I'm not thrilled to be so forced to change how I play.
Maybe it just seems like a bigger thing than it is?

Oh no! You can't play the exact same way forever and ever? You mean you may have to learn to adapt to new tactics and try out a different model?!

Holy buckets, that evil GW!

Also, you are making it a bigger deal than it is.

 brassangel wrote:

Oh no! You can't play the exact same way forever and ever? You mean you may have to learn to adapt to new tactics and try out a different model?!
...

Cool it. No need to be antagonistic.

I don't think this new uber detachment is worth it. It is much like taking an Ork Cad with less flexibility, and worse special rules. I don't see a reason to take it, unless I'm trying to nerf myself for a friendly game.

Do you we have information on the completeness of the update? Is there a chance that the individual formations, and other special rules are getting updates as well?

 brassangel wrote:
It doesn't matter what our analysis of this is on paper, or our first reactions. The internet has been wrong when predicting the competitive viability 100% of the time a new army/detachment/codex is released.

That said, I like the Khorne Demonkin, and now Wulfen and Ork updates, because it's giving us armies that can reliably get into combat with speed. This is good for fighting against a shooty-dominant 7th edition. A little something for every play style.

These Ork formations are a good value, because there are models and special rules included for free.

The problem is the special rules Da boss is watchin and Da biggest an da best. Those rules are just puniching. Orks tend to lose morale test quite easily as they have leadership 7 and poor armour saves. The current mob rule makes it somwhat better to manage it by rolling 2-3 breaking heads or a 1 when you are in close combat. But with the +2 to mob rule you will only manage this if you roll a 1. If you are 10+ you can manage it by rolling 1-4, but even if you manage the mob rule your nob will deal out 3+d3 hits. That's minimum 4 hits and you will rapidly loose more models and get destroyed or fail the morale next time.

Warbosses usually don't want to challenge either as they almost always strike last with their powerklaw. But they have to with this rule.

Even without those rules orks biggest weakness is the morale and challenges. Those rules just makes orks much much weaker. The only way in this codex to get around this is fearless, which you either can get via Ghazkulls council or from tha big bosspole which will only affect one unit.

 brassangel wrote:
IThese Ork formations are a good value, because there are models and special rules included for free.

Um...what? Orks dont get free units. Anywhere. At all. We dont get free anything. Even the extra rules arent free, as i would have to take units i never had any intention of ever taking.

 brassangel wrote:


Oh no! You can't play the exact same way forever and ever? You mean you may have to learn to adapt to new tactics and try out a different model?!

Holy buckets, that evil GW!

Also, you are making it a bigger deal than it is.

Firstly, chill.

Secondly, most Ork players have had to basically re-buy their entire fething army to make this new book work. I know i would have, which i didnt, cuz i wasnt spending another 400+ bucks just to make them function on a basic level. The Ork-Curion doesn't help this, it just continues that trend.

brassangel wrote:It doesn't matter what our analysis of this is on paper, or our first reactions. The internet has been wrong when predicting the competitive viability 100% of the time a new army/detachment/codex is released.

What? After the rules are released, the analysis of what is good or not is usually pretty spot on. The only exception that I can think of in recent months is that Tau did not turn out to be completely game breaking and instead were merely very powerful.

brassangel wrote:That said, I like the Khorne Demonkin, and now Wulfen and Ork updates, because it's giving us armies that can reliably get into combat with speed. This is good for fighting against a shooty-dominant 7th edition. A little something for every play style.

This is true, but it requires lots of units (which need upgrades to be useful) before you take the upgrades needed to get into combat quickly (trukks and boarding planks).

brassangel wrote:These Ork formations are a good value, because there are models and special rules included for free.

I have no idea what you mean with this statement.

brassangel wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
Yikes. Wonder what caused them to drop the Green tide.
Maybe the horde would be better by being more flexible?
I'm not thrilled to be so forced to change how I play.
Maybe it just seems like a bigger thing than it is?

Oh no! You can't play the exact same way forever and ever? You mean you may have to learn to adapt to new tactics and try out a different model?!

Holy buckets, that evil GW!

Also, you are making it a bigger deal than it is.

The green tide has been a part of the orks since formations were a thing back in apocalypse. It would be like removing drop pods and trying to justify it by saying it is to make Space Marine players try out new tactics.

I generally try and give people the benefit of the doubt, but I think that you are just fishing for a response with your posts now. You have this weird confrontational attitude in all of your posts and tried to justify removing Green Tide with a "Learn to Play." Maybe its just that I am mad at the supplement and am irrationally directing it at you, and if so I apologise, but what is your problem with people complaining about this truly bad supplement? How is it hurting you?

 warhead01 wrote:
Any word on the Green tide?

Not in the ghaz formation but it should have been a core choice. That way you could take a green tide with its warlord and a painboss. It still would have been a 1000pt list but it would have been cheaper then the current list design of tide plus cad with painboss 2x gretchin and void generator relay.

gungo wrote:

Add in a Lukky stick to one of the warbosses in mega armour (for 2+ reroll armour) and ghaz has WS8 with the rest of the formation at ws7.

That's a no-go - unless something has changed, all HQs from waaagh! ghaz must take relics from waaaagh! ghaz.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

gungo wrote:

Add in a Lukky stick to one of the warbosses in mega armour (for 2+ reroll armour) and ghaz has WS8 with the rest of the formation at ws7.

That's a no-go - unless something has changed, all HQs from waaagh! ghaz must take relics from waaaagh! ghaz.

They have, they can take Relics from both books now. Pretty much the only real positive i've seen out of this unless you already ran Trukk Boyz.

On the topic of the orkcurioun......

I won't disagree that's its a bit lazy, and not very helpful. But it exists, which is something that I didn't expect as of a week ago.

And there is some potential for fun stuff, like ghaz getting endless waaaaghs.

I feel as if using it has too much cost associated with it - the core requirements are too costly (what is the necron core? Like 2 warriors and tomb blades?).

But it's a thing, that does things, and I'm excited to try it out, at least. It may not be amazing, or even good really, but at this point what do you expect.

I'm just pleasantly surprised we even got a decurion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

gungo wrote:

Add in a Lukky stick to one of the warbosses in mega armour (for 2+ reroll armour) and ghaz has WS8 with the rest of the formation at ws7.

That's a no-go - unless something has changed, all HQs from waaagh! ghaz must take relics from waaaagh! ghaz.

They have, they can take Relics from both books now. Pretty much the only real positive i've seen out of this unless you already ran Trukk Boyz.

Really? That's news to me. Hrmm, that's interesting, as the ghaz relics were mostly garbage anyways (big bosspole / MFF are decent).

Am i the only one that kinda wishes the MFF was a 12" 5++ instead of a 6" 4++? 6" bubble is so hard to get more than a couple models in it without fear of large blasts, though its great when hiding behind a naut on a bike since blasts that make walkers scared are kinda rare and due to large bases still only get 2-3 things anyway.

Really not sure which is better, though i could use the 12" 5++ a bit more universally it obviously isnt as potent for walkers.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
On the topic of the orkcurioun......

I won't disagree that's its a bit lazy, and not very helpful. But it exists, which is something that I didn't expect as of a week ago.

And there is some potential for fun stuff, like ghaz getting endless waaaaghs.

I feel as if using it has too much cost associated with it - the core requirements are too costly (what is the necron core? Like 2 warriors and tomb blades?).

But it's a thing, that does things, and I'm excited to try it out, at least. It may not be amazing, or even good really, but at this point what do you expect.

I'm just pleasantly surprised we even got a decurion. .

The Necron Core is:

1 Overlord
2-8 Warriors
1-4 Immortals
0-2 Lychguard
1-3 Tomb Blades
0-3 Monoliths

Its a good Core, the minimum is reasonable, and it has the potential to take more if you happen to like Warriors or something. If ours was say:

1 Warboss
0-1 Painboy
3-6 Boyz Mobs
1-3 Nobz or Meganobz (in any combination)
0-2 Deff Dredds
0-2 Gorkanaughts or Morkanaughts (in any combination)

I can work with this, i have options, im taking things i want, not have to. This is a decent Core.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Am i the only one that kinda wishes the MFF was a 12" 5++ instead of a 6" 4++? 6" bubble is so hard to get more than a couple models in it without fear of large blasts, though its great when hiding behind a naut on a bike since blasts that make walkers scared are kinda rare and due to large bases still only get 2-3 things anyway.

Really not sure which is better, though i could use the 12" 5++ a bit more universally it obviously isnt as potent for walkers.

I firmly believe it shoulda been a 12" bubble to begin with, as they changed it to models not units, that or make it cheaper. I mean Necron Crypteks have the Chronometron which gives a 5++ against shooting to a single unit, which is pretty much all the KFF does now, except theres is only 25 points.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Am i the only one that kinda wishes the MFF was a 12" 5++ instead of a 6" 4++? 6" bubble is so hard to get more than a couple models in it without fear of large blasts, though its great when hiding behind a naut on a bike since blasts that make walkers scared are kinda rare and due to large bases still only get 2-3 things anyway.

Really not sure which is better, though i could use the 12" 5++ a bit more universally it obviously isnt as potent for walkers.

I'd be fine with 6" if it was units and not models.

I just don't understand why we have to take six units of boyz. 3-8 or something like that. Don't shoe horn me into a playstyle, because I'm just going to go into CAD.

"Oh no! You can't play the exact same way forever and ever? You mean you may have to learn to adapt to new tactics and try out a different model?! "

That's all well and good, sure. Except, All last year I bought loads and loads more Ork boys just to run several Green tides.
I'm still in the process of painting the last 200 shoota boys.
So, ya, I'm a bit disappointed at the loss of the Green Tide.
(Ebay, how I love you...)
As was pointed out to me a page ago, it's still a legal formation. Even if it's not a current one. And I'm completely ok with not being able to apply the WAAAAGH with it on turn one if need be.
I do think you red a little too much into what I posted.
I am going to try a different list with a trukk tax, just like most all the other warbosses. Just to see what it'll do.
But you know it's more about what I enjoy pushing across the table than anything else. there's just something I find satisfying about the green tides.

Oh believe me im still pissed it went to a model basis and didnt get a price cut. Most expensive invul in the game. Tau MCs pay 50pts for a 4++ but thats also on an MC and a better save, so that price is justified, why the hell is the only ork invul so expensive and hard to get?

I havnt even used a KFF in eons because getting a big mek in the army is so damn difficult thanks to painboyz being an IC instead of akin to mekboyz. Random warbiker unit with a painboy is far, far better than a more expensive 5++.
And dont get me started on morkanauts. Just shy of 300pts, terrible shooting, lack of melee rules, still only a 5++.

I was running 3 KFF's and a pain boys for a while while leaving my grotts in reserve. I just got a 4th KF mek a month ago to boost my coverage.
I'd probably been better off just building a VSG. less dice to roll.

 warhead01 wrote:
"Oh no! You can't play the exact same way forever and ever? You mean you may have to learn to adapt to new tactics and try out a different model?! "

That's all well and good, sure. Except, All last year I bought loads and loads more Ork boys just to run several Green tides.
I'm still in the process of painting the last 200 shoota boys.
So, ya, I'm a bit disappointed at the loss of the Green Tide.
(Ebay, how I love you...)
As was pointed out to me a page ago, it's still a legal formation. Even if it's not a current one. And I'm completely ok with not being able to apply the WAAAAGH with it on turn one if need be.
I do think you red a little too much into what I posted.
I am going to try a different list with a trukk tax, just like most all the other warbosses. Just to see what it'll do.
But you know it's more about what I enjoy pushing across the table than anything else. there's just something I find satisfying about the green tides.

And i like a few large Mobz of boyz being supported by mass artillery fire and Speshulist Boyz. And the Ork-Curion doesnt support either of these play-styles. If you run a Trukk Boyz army, its wonderful, as you where probably running a fair amount of boyz mobz anyway, but it does nothing for the rest of us.

Decurion style formations arent supposed to shoe horn you into one particular playstyle, at least if they are good (see Necrons and Eldar) or at least make that one style very, very good (Gladius) We get, decent if you take trukks. Not free trukks, not improved trukks, just a possible 1st turn charge if you take trukks.

Ya, this clinches it, im gonna re write this Orkcurion.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oh believe me im still pissed it went to a model basis and didnt get a price cut. Most expensive invul in the game. Tau MCs pay 50pts for a 4++ but thats also on an MC and a better save, so that price is justified, why the hell is the only ork invul so expensive and hard to get?

I havnt even used a KFF in eons because getting a big mek in the army is so damn difficult thanks to painboyz being an IC instead of akin to mekboyz. Random warbiker unit with a painboy is far, far better than a more expensive 5++.
And dont get me started on morkanauts. Just shy of 300pts, terrible shooting, lack of melee rules, still only a 5++.

Mogrok's Bossboyz are for spamming Big Meks, and the Formation bonus is actually decent on top of that. D3 Outflanking Acute senses units? Well if you twist my arm....

Except.you'll lose your unlimited Waaagh! by going with Mogrok who has to be the Warlord.

The formation is good, but you have to supplement it with a CAD for Painboyz.

Are the bonuses for a single Core choice or multiples?

 Frozocrone wrote:
Except.you'll lose your unlimited Waaagh! by going with Mogrok who has to be the Warlord.

The formation is good, but you have to supplement it with a CAD for Painboyz.

That you do, its a playstyle that really doenst use Waaagh, and can actually make the Kan wall viable again. Usually because your Outflanking a Battlewagon or something goofy.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Are the bonuses for a single Core choice or multiples?

You get 1 Oddboy per Core or a Council of the Waaagh

So ya take the Not-Warband and you can get 1 Painboy, Weirdboy, Mek or Big Mek.

Ya, not worth it.

 Grimmor wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
"Oh no! You can't play the exact same way forever and ever? You mean you may have to learn to adapt to new tactics and try out a different model?! "

That's all well and good, sure. Except, All last year I bought loads and loads more Ork boys just to run several Green tides.
I'm still in the process of painting the last 200 shoota boys.
So, ya, I'm a bit disappointed at the loss of the Green Tide.
(Ebay, how I love you...)
As was pointed out to me a page ago, it's still a legal formation. Even if it's not a current one. And I'm completely ok with not being able to apply the WAAAAGH with it on turn one if need be.
I do think you red a little too much into what I posted.
I am going to try a different list with a trukk tax, just like most all the other warbosses. Just to see what it'll do.
But you know it's more about what I enjoy pushing across the table than anything else. there's just something I find satisfying about the green tides.

And i like a few large Mobz of boyz being supported by mass artillery fire and Speshulist Boyz. And the Ork-Curion doesnt support either of these play-styles. If you run a Trukk Boyz army, its wonderful, as you where probably running a fair amount of boyz mobz anyway, but it does nothing for the rest of us.

Decurion style formations arent supposed to shoe horn you into one particular playstyle, at least if they are good (see Necrons and Eldar) or at least make that one style very, very good (Gladius) We get, decent if you take trukks. Not free trukks, not improved trukks, just a possible 1st turn charge if you take trukks.

Ya, this clinches it, im gonna re write this Orkcurion.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oh believe me im still pissed it went to a model basis and didnt get a price cut. Most expensive invul in the game. Tau MCs pay 50pts for a 4++ but thats also on an MC and a better save, so that price is justified, why the hell is the only ork invul so expensive and hard to get?

I havnt even used a KFF in eons because getting a big mek in the army is so damn difficult thanks to painboyz being an IC instead of akin to mekboyz. Random warbiker unit with a painboy is far, far better than a more expensive 5++.
And dont get me started on morkanauts. Just shy of 300pts, terrible shooting, lack of melee rules, still only a 5++.

Mogrok's Bossboyz are for spamming Big Meks, and the Formation bonus is actually decent on top of that. D3 Outflanking Acute senses units? Well if you twist my arm....

Right, its the same complaint im raising in the tactics thread. The counterargument is "just take a cad" well no duh we can take a cad, but guess what orks are so lousy we are severely gimping ourselves because we dont want to run the same damn list every game which this orkcurion style is forcing us to do.

Biker lists are impossible, Wagon lists are impossible, Dreadmob lists are impossible unless you dont use the orkcurion, which defeats the flippin' point of the update. Granted, the orcurion bonuses really dont do much for walkers/bikers, but army-wide potential fearless for bikers or army-wide run + charge for Dreadmob walkers is still very powerful...just impossible to get in a normal game. All thanks to those insane unit counts and random tax units (nobz, grots, why does the Dreadmob add a painboy?).

I shouldnt have to completely ignore formations to run a staple tactic of the orks for years upon years, and thats exactly what this update is making me do.

Also Mogrok's Bossboyz suffer from the pathetic Ghazzy sup rules (Da Boss Iz Watchin, Biggest n Da Best), which really makes me not like them. And i still think not having a warboss on bike the warlord is a suicide mission, as pretty much every other warlord option is easily dispatched.