New Orks & Tau WD 108

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Grimmor**

matphat wrote:
Haven't Orks been low to mid tier since 4th? Why does anyone expect Orks to get better when they've been pretty bad for 10+ years?

As a fairly new player, and a dedicated Ork player, I have never expected anything more.

Uh no. 4th edition we where in the top 4, and in 5th we were somewhere around the top as well. It wasn't until 6th edition that it got bad, and boy did it get bad.

Vineheart01 wrote:

Im not really a fan of them either. I use them in either big games or when i know my opponent is going to abuse them (i.e. literally any eldar/necron player, most of the SM players around here of every chapter doesnt really use the formations). Only formation im fine bringing with my tau regularly is the retal cadre because another commander + crisis suits...since its the tamest formation rule-wise we got it just has awesome unit slots.

I dont even care if i lose with orks, but i want to put up a fight. If i get tabled, but he only has 1-3 units left, i call it a good game. That doesnt happen anymore, which is why i shelved them. All the top/2nd tier codexes just casually crush orks, its no fun getting tabled almost every game by turn 4 and most of their army is still standing (had a necron warrior squad in my last ork game stall my bikerstar for 4 combat phases. Warboss with stikk, nobklaw, 14 warbikers, painboy, and even a MANz missile for the 3rd/4th phase. WARRIORS just laughed at a crapton of PKs, taking me to the 5th phase before i finally swept him. And somehow this is balanced? Riiight....)
Unless i am utterly spamming MANz missiles and warbikers, everything i bring is countered by joke lists. MANz missiles and warbikers arent reliable either, since the moment you face S8 AP2 or better guns the MANz missiles just became very difficult to utilize and just about any ignores cover takes out our bikers, or they just get trumped by other melee units since yaknow...S3 if you charge me first even though im a tough as nails ork.

That is some lousy luck there. Honestly ive never had that big of an issue with Crons, except the Nightbringer. I hate that guy.

**Vineheart01**

matphat wrote:
Haven't Orks been low to mid tier since 4th? Why does anyone expect Orks to get better when they've been pretty bad for 10+ years?

As a fairly new player, and a dedicated Ork player, I have never expected anything more.

Orks were beastmode in 5th. The Kan Wall was insane and since we didnt remove models from the front our PK Nobz in boy blobs were pretty difficult to kill before they wrecked things. Also consolidation into another combat.

6th comes around, walkers become pathetic as we all know, removing from the front usually makes ork boyz take a full extra turn on average to get anywhere, and our pk nob gets challenged out/sniped all the flippin time. Consolidation into another combat needed to go away, since that was just...just plain dumb and silly lol

**Grimskul**

Vineheart01 wrote:
matphat wrote:
Haven't Orks been low to mid tier since 4th? Why does anyone expect Orks to get better when they've been pretty bad for 10+ years?

As a fairly new player, and a dedicated Ork player, I have never expected anything more.

Orks were beastmode in 5th. The Kan Wall was insane and since we didnt remove models from the front our PK Nobz in boy blobs were pretty difficult to kill before they wrecked things. Also consolidation into another combat.

6th comes around, walkers become pathetic as we all know, removing from the front usually makes ork boyz take a full extra turn on average to get anywhere, and our pk nob gets challenged out/sniped all the flippin time. Consolidation into another combat needed to go away, since that was just...just plain dumb and silly lol

I thought 4th ed was when you could consolidate into combat, you couldn't do that in 5th.

**gigasnail**

you could not consolidate into combat in 5th.

**Vineheart01**

Did that go away in 5th? honestly cant remember when that went away lol. I barely played in those editions, think i had like 1200pts of orks tops and mostly AOBR boyz

**geargutz**

Grimmor wrote:

I just found that issue and i read the stuff one of the guys who wrote it said. In his top 3 favorite things about the Dex he never once mentioned a rule, he just kept going on and on about aestetics, and then i saw his list for a Battle Report and i nearly lost it. He had 4 different types of Mek Gunz in the same unit and had 2004 points while his Nid opponent had 1975. I almost screamed at my computer.

You think that is bad, try the white dwarf where they praised the new flashy lookin flash gitz. The battle report was between orks and imp knights. A walker vrs walker game.
In knights had 3 knight paladins and 3 knight errant at 2235pts.
The orks were 1 bar bones stompa, 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts with kff each, 4 deffdredds, 6 killa kanz.
It was listed at 2455 pts....I checked my dex, and if those killa kanz and deffdredds were bare bones then that comes to 2685pts...not sure if typo or just plain attempt to deceive us. Any way that's a 450 pt difference.
The game ended with only a gorkanauts and knight paladin left. The knights optained both objectives of destroy a factory and the stompa. OrKS lose.

**Cleatus**

geargutz wrote:
Grimmor wrote:

I just found that issue and i read the stuff one of the guys who wrote it said. In his top 3 favorite things about the Dex he never once mentioned a rule, he just kept going on and on about aestetics, and then i saw his list for a Battle Report and i nearly lost it. He had 4 different types of Mek Gunz in the same unit and had 2004 points while his Nid opponent had 1975. I almost screamed at my computer.

You think that is bad, try the white dwarf where they praised the new flashy lookin flash gitz. The battle report was between orks and imp knights. A walker vrs walker game.
In knights had 3 knight paladins and 3 knight errant at 2235pts.
The orks were 1 bar bones stompa, 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts with kff each, 4 deffdredds, 6 killa kanz.
It was listed at 2455 pts....I checked my dex, and if those killa kanz and deffdredds were bare bones then that comes to 2685pts...not sure if typo or just plain attempt to deceive us. Any way that's a 450 pt difference.
The game ended with only a gorkanauts and knight paladin left. The knights optained both objectives of destroy a factory and the stompa. OrKS lose.

That's some good narrative forging right there.

**Frozocrone**

Well its not like they were going to say 'Hey look at these Flash Gitz! Pretty men, amirite?'

GW do some daft things but they ain't that bad.

That batrep seemed stacked against Orks from the start

**Accolade**

Cleatus wrote:
geargutz wrote:
Grimmor wrote:

I just found that issue and i read the stuff one of the guys who wrote it said. In his top 3 favorite things about the Dex he never once mentioned a rule, he just kept going on and on about aestetics, and then i saw his list for a Battle Report and i nearly lost it. He had 4 different types of Mek Gunz in the same unit and had 2004 points while his Nid opponent had 1975. I almost screamed at my computer.

You think that is bad, try the white dwarf where they praised the new flashy lookin flash gitz. The battle report was between orks and imp knights. A walker vrs walker game.
In knights had 3 knight paladins and 3 knight errant at 2235pts.
The orks were 1 bar bones stompa, 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts with kff each, 4 deffdredds, 6 killa kanz.
It was listed at 2455 pts....I checked my dex, and if those killa kanz and deffdredds were bare bones then that comes to 2685pts...not sure if typo or just plain attempt to deceive us. Any way that's a 450 pt difference.
The game ended with only a gorkanauts and knight paladin left. The knights optained both objectives of destroy a factory and the stompa. OrKS lose.

That's some good narrative forging right there.

Even in their own dreams, Orks can't win a battle. They're like Bad Luck Brian under GW's rules department.

**tag8833**

geargutz wrote:
You think that is bad, try the white dwarf where they praised the new flashy lookin flash gitz. The battle report was between orks and imp knights. A walker vrs walker game.
In knights had 3 knight paladins and 3 knight errant at 2235pts.
The orks were 1 bar bones stompa, 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts with kff each, 4 deffdredds, 6 killa kanz.
It was listed at 2455 pts....I checked my dex, and if those killa kanz and deffdredds were bare bones then that comes to 2685pts...not sure if typo or just plain attempt to deceive us. Any way that's a 450 pt difference.
The game ended with only a gorkanauts and knight paladin left. The knights optained both objectives of destroy a factory and the stompa. OrKS lose.

The batrep was written of a game they were using to playtest the Ork walkers. Clearly there was a problem with the outcome of the game, so they had to increase the cost of Ork Walkers to better balance the game.

**Mr. CyberPunk**

As some said, I dont really care if orks arent a top army. I like haw for mob of 10+ ad I feel it suits them well even though its not really strong. Still, this orkurion is a joke. That one of the bonus for the core formation is still the same and is now completely irrelevant in the big picture is insulting and shows the ammount of "work" GW put into this. Furthermore, these formations are just way too big. 5 bw ! 20 flash gitz! 3 gorkonauts... Finally, whats the point in making us the only army that needs to take special characters in their formations. I know they were taken from the waagh ghaz supplement, but they should have been tweaked a bit at the very least

**ORicK**

I play Orks since they exist and always liked small to medium units, in current age that is 10-15 models.

Never liked the maxed 30 boyz units, also never liked playing Orks as an assault army.IMO they are better and more fun as a shooty army that can fight in close combat as well.

What i have not read here is what the new book will do for an army based on shootaboyz, lootaz etc. I think that having these fearless is not a bad thing at all.
In current edition a small unit runs away after the first (or second) leadership test. Now small units can swarm the place and stand firm.

I do not need or want all my orks in trukks and everything tooled up for assault in turn 1 or 2. That is nice for a part of the army, but should never be the plan for the whole army, nor does it need to be IMO.

But these are not the rules i was waiting for either.
And always Ghazz, never any other clans.
Goff are the most boring clan IMO.The clan with most nobz and good in assault, but the worst in regard to flexibility and tactics.
Goff are more or less Khorne without armour. Goff find Khorne funny in the fluff; that is also where the Stormboyz of Khorne came from.
I find most, if not all, other Clans more interesting.

**MajorWesJanson**

Orks would be far better off if GW went with the carrot for large unit sizes instead of the stick.

What if instead of forcing you to take 6 units of boyz, or units of 20 models as part of formations, they gave bonuses for larger unit sizes- say if you take at least 20 boyz you can upgrade one to a nob for free, and if the unit is 30 models, the nob gets a free boss pole and special weapons for the unit are free (expanded to be 1 big shoota, rokkit, burna, or big choppa per 10 boyz)

Keep the idea of a mob rule table, but let you adjust the dice roll by 1 for each unit of 10 or more orks within 6"

Have a variety of builds as core- Green Tide, mixed mob, speed freeks (all must take a transport, may move 12" and disembark, Ld +1 within 6" of an ork transport)

Thats just 30 seconds of thought.

**r_squared**

I agree, the decurion concept would have been the best way for people to bring their klans to the table. At least an option to take a core based around each klan. It would have been simple to do, fluffy, and made many or players very happy.

**Jidmah**

Ugh. Despite no longer playing WH40k (because the awesome support GW has shown orks) this update makes me sad for the boxes full of awesome in my basement.

**Oguhmek**

Well at least there is a possibility for clan Orkurions - this one is basically the Goff one. How about a Great Evil Sunz Speedmob formation or a Great Bad Moon Dakkamob one?

Ar least they havent totally eliminated the possibility. If they will ever do it, though, is another question. Probably not, because it would make way too much sense...

**tneva82**

Thank god I bailed out of modern 40k into 2nd ed. Orks(well pretty much every army actually...) are much more fun there! This would have been quite a disapointment if I still was playing 7th ed. Especially tourny style where those formations are extremely unwieldy due to high minimum point costs(seems there's locally talk of 1500pts games as well due to time issues...)

**Agent_Tremolo**

At this point it's safe to say that Orks don't fit in wh40k anymore. Seriously, there's no way to play this army without heavy houseruling.

**warhead01**

"At this point it's safe to say that Orks don't fit in wh40k anymore. Seriously, there's no way to play this army without heavy houseruling. "

Which it seems is all competitive play seems to be any way.
What with all the army construction limitations. Maybe Orks should be the exception to the rule. Or have there own army construction format for tournaments.

**Vineheart01**

ITC or any other tourny ruling doesnt add rules to orks or remove BS rules from orks to make them playable. Thats what needs to be done.

Or change prices. Stompa is way too expensive...codex stompa should be ~200pts cheaper. Knights are stronger than a Stompa but have a lot less hp so it should still cost more than a knight, but not 3x more!
570pts before any missiles or forgeworld options are added sounds fair to me, since orky BS makes majority of his shooting not do much. Yeah i know its Supa-Gatling shoots 3 times and is potentially insane, but doubles on a 3D6 is pretty easy to get and it stops for the entire game if you roll doubles so im not that impressed. Deff Kannon is the only reliable one, since even an ork cant miss a Massive Blast lol.

**tag8833**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
What if instead of forcing you to take 6 units of boyz, or units of 20 models as part of formations, they gave bonuses for larger unit sizes- say if you take at least 20 boyz you can upgrade one to a nob for free, and if the unit is 30 models, the nob gets a free boss pole and special weapons for the unit are free (expanded to be 1 big shoota, rokkit, burna, or big choppa per 10 boyz)

Here is my solution to Ork Survivability, points cost, and a few other things.

If a Unit numbers 10 or more Orks it is +1 toughness against shooting. If a Unit numbers 20 or more Orks it is +2 toughness against shooting.

I think -200 points for the codex stompa would be fair. Flash Gitz should have Eavy Armor and Monster Hunter. Oddboyz: Painboys, Meks, and Weirdboys shouldn't take up a force org, though you should be limited to 1 per HQ choice just like Meks. Trukks should downgrade Pens on a 2+.

I think those few changes, and everything would be pretty solid for Orks.

**Cleatus**

It really seems to align with GW's push to turn 40K into Apocalypse. They just don't want to call it Apocalypse. This trend started with the roll out of 7th and the inclusion of LOW in the standard CAD, super heavies, formations, etc. And it just keeps rolling forward. You want to bring strength D weapons to a standard game, and your opponent is running an infantry horde? Sure, this is fair and legal. You want to bring a formation that gives you ridiculous bonuses? Yes, that's a great idea! Super convenient that you just happen to need a lot of models to field these formations, or a small number of more expensive models.

I know we don't have all the details yet, but it seems like this new super formation is designed to be taken in large games. It feels like they cherry picked stuff from Armageddon and Apocalypse, threw it all together, and said here go forge the narrative.

Am I reading the Aux choices right -- could you potentially field 10 Stompas for each Core choice? Or 50 Battlewagons (10 x Blitz Brigade)? Or is there some restriction?

Understand I'm not talking about games under 2000 points. The way this formation is written, it seems like GW just wants you to buy a crap-load of models, and here's some fun rules to give you a bonus for fielding those models.

**Nomeny**

It's also really nice bonus for those of us with large collections already, and the game works surprisingly well at smaller points values as well.

**tetrisphreak**

has anybody seen/leaked the Pain Mob formation yet?

**Jidmah**

Cleatus wrote:
Am I reading the Aux choices right -- could you potentially field 10 Stompas for each Core choice? Or 50 Battlewagons (10 x Blitz Brigade)? Or is there some restriction?

Understand I'm not talking about games under 2000 points. The way this formation is written, it seems like GW just wants you to buy a crap-load of models, and here's some fun rules to give you a bonus for fielding those models.

The restriction is basically the core unit. If memory serves me right (keep in mind that I have played once in the last two years) to field the Waagh! Band in any useful way you're already burning about 1200 points, and that's assuming you stick everyone in trukks and thus pretty much lose mob rule. Mobs of 30 would be more expensive. The core also has no bonus rules compared to the decurion, plus W!G imposes some heavy penalties onto you, like mob rule +2, characters being forced to accept challenges and a terrible Warlord table you must roll on.

You could just spam CADs and get your 10 stompas a lot cheaper.

Unless there is something really awesome hidden somewhere, this orkurion is useless outside of fielding a metric ton of boyz, which was never my play stile anyways.

**Vineheart01**

admittedly if youre fielding more than 3 stompas youre playing true apoc, which doesnt even have slots far as i know..people just bring gak to bring gak and dont even pay attention to slot requirements.

10 stompas alone is damn near 8000pts, before factoring in the impending mekspam inside each of them for a ton of repairs.

**warhead01**

I broke down and ordered the book today. A sell on Ebay has it for like $28.00 usd. And free shipping.
I'm an addict with near on 20,000 points so it was inevitable.

**the_Armyman**

If it makes you all feel any better, 12 Genestealer hybrids cost about the same as 12 Shoota Boyz and outclass them in nearly every single way! Better BS, S, I, Sv, Fearless, and Rending! Orks will be better in 8th Edition, I promise...

**matphat**

I played my last game of 7th about two weeks ago. I'm going to spend my hobby time finishing up the remainder of my Orks, and putting polish on both my Orks and my 1500 points of Iron Warriors, and then I'm going to box up both finished armies and chill till either A.) A new Ork or CSM Codex appears that is deemed actually fun (If not at least mid tier) or 8th drops and is neither AoS, and is better over all than 7th had been to me.

It's an easy choice at this point.

**Frozocrone**

the_Armyman wrote:
If it makes you all feel any better, 12 Genestealer hybrids cost about the same as 12 Shoota Boyz and outclass them in nearly every single way! Better BS, S, I, Sv, Fearless, and Rending! Orks will be better in 8th Edition, I promise...

But do they have have T4 and 2 S4 shots as well as the option to buy 'eavy armour? No? I didn't think so

*quietly sulks in corner*