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I still belive the painmob formation can be useful! But not when YOU are assaulting units. If you choose to assault something then you probably decided that it was a target that you could beat in 1-2 assault turns. But the time when the "Pile on tha pain" rule is useful is when a though unit have charged you instead! You probably lost the assault phase during the enemy turn, but you are still standing. Having an extra phase where you can put some hurt on the enemy without him fighting back is a great way to make a comeback. It also makes it more viable to decline a challenge during the enemy turn if your enemy has a character that very likely will kill your nob, The nob will still get a chance to swing his klaw during your turn without having to worry about a challenge.

edit1: Thats why it would be nice to be able to use it several times as well. Maybe your enemy have a very though assault oriented army like space wolves with thunderwolves and wulfen. Or maybe you are fighting necrons and they just won't die so you need more attacks to wear them down.

edit2: I would love this as command formation! Say Grotsnik and 1-3 Painboys. They give you "Pile on tha pain" to any unit they join. And you are able to use it through the whole game. In addition Grotsnik gives +4FNP :-D

Admittedly if i were to break out my orks again i'd be abusing the painmob and blitz brigade standalone formations.

Painmob isnt a terrible formation, its just not helping orks in the field theyre suffering in. BUT! its not a W!G formation so no terribad mob rule penalties.

Though i wish the deffdredd was optional. It really puts a stick in the mud for that formation. Best i can come up with utilizes two painmob formations and the blitz brigade at ~1600pts. Either sac some armor upgrades on dem boyz or nobz or take a squad of grotz for one of the require troops so you can bring a CAD with a warboss + the last boy squad for the 5th wagon, but i couldnt really get it under 1850 because of those damn deffdredds hogging ~100pts each. Really dont want to dock the nobz units to less than 5 since thats a LOT of empty space in a wagon as it is, and 5 nobz can still bring pain (just at a lousy cost ratio).

Could technically bring battlewagons for the boyz and trukks for the nobz via a cad, but then i lose scout
Once again, cant quite do what would be great because of the formation restrictions being so damn costly.

Detachment bonuses don't transfer to models outside it. So no painboy to give the green tide more fighting. Also in pretty sure the full rules say you have to use what it shows on the box.

A) The Great Waaagh! Detachment is out? Can someone please confirm this, as it's a harsh blow to competitive orks if so!

B) If out, can we somehow take W!G stuff in a CAD now?

B1) Most importantly can we take a big mek with a MFF in a warbikestar?

B2) Can we make a warboss who can take DLS and other Gifts of Gork and Mork and/or Kustom Gubbinz on the same model?

C) If we can take W!G in a CAD does the rules for Biggest and Best, and Da Boss is Watchin' follow along or are they cut out?


Please answer if you have the material.

Waaargh wrote:
A) The Great Waaagh! Detachment is out? Can someone please confirm this, as it's a harsh blow to competitive orks if so!

B) If out, can we somehow take W!G stuff in a CAD now?

B1) Most importantly can we take a big mek with a MFF in a warbikestar?

B2) Can we make a warboss who can take DLS and other Gifts of Gork and Mork and/or Kustom Gubbinz on the same model?

C) If we can take W!G in a CAD does the rules for Biggest and Best, and Da Boss is Watchin' follow along or are they cut out?


Please answer if you have the material.

A. No
B. No
B1. We could always do that if you had multiple detachments.
B2. Only if he is in the orkurion detachment
C. No because answer to B was no

mhalko1 wrote:

Waaargh wrote:
A) The Great Waaagh! Detachment is out? Can someone please confirm this, as it's a harsh blow to competitive orks if so!

B) If out, can we somehow take W!G stuff in a CAD now?

B1) Most importantly can we take a big mek with a MFF in a warbikestar?

B2) Can we make a warboss who can take DLS and other Gifts of Gork and Mork and/or Kustom Gubbinz on the same model?

C) If we can take W!G in a CAD does the rules for Biggest and Best, and Da Boss is Watchin' follow along or are they cut out?


Please answer if you have the material.

A. No
B. No
B1. We could always do that if you had multiple detachments.
B2. Only if he is in the orkurion detachment
C. No because answer to B was no

Do you have the tactical objectives?

The Painmob ain't bad, tbf. I mean, it's a formation that comes in a box designed to sell some minis, so it wasn't going to be groundbreaking stuff. Orks suffer in close combat if still engaged after a first turn charge, and this could be a bit of a boost in those scrums where you're in danger of getting bogged down. It's a bump, not a crutch.

 the_Armyman wrote:
The Painmob ain't bad, tbf. I mean, it's a formation that comes in a box designed to sell some minis, so it wasn't going to be groundbreaking stuff. Orks suffer in close combat if still engaged after a first turn charge, and this could be a bit of a boost in those scrums where you're in danger of getting bogged down. It's a bump, not a crutch.

In a sense, it's not bad because it at least helps the orks instead of helping your opponent (imagine if the painboy had to challenge and accept challenges!)

Since it uses commonly included units, that's also a non-negative. I'd take if if I was taking a Deff Dread anyway, but I doubt I'd pay the "Dread Tax" in a non-walker list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orock wrote:
Detachment bonuses don't transfer to models outside it. So no painboy to give the green tide more fighting. Also in pretty sure the full rules say you have to use what it shows on the box.

What's this "green tide" you are referring to?

mhalko1 wrote:

Waaargh wrote:
A) The Great Waaagh! Detachment is out? Can someone please confirm this, as it's a harsh blow to competitive orks if so!

B) If out, can we somehow take W!G stuff in a CAD now?

B1) Most importantly can we take a big mek with a MFF in a warbikestar?

B2) Can we make a warboss who can take DLS and other Gifts of Gork and Mork and/or Kustom Gubbinz on the same model?

C) If we can take W!G in a CAD does the rules for Biggest and Best, and Da Boss is Watchin' follow along or are they cut out?


Please answer if you have the material.

A. No
B. No
B1. We could always do that if you had multiple detachments.
B2. Only if he is in the orkurion detachment
C. No because answer to B was no

Thanks mhalko

Someone got me worried earlier.

I know these questions are answered, but I will just elaborate some more on the answers.

Waaargh wrote:
A) The Great Waaagh! Detachment is out? Can someone please confirm this, as it's a harsh blow to competitive orks if so!

B) If out, can we somehow take W!G stuff in a CAD now?

B1) Most importantly can we take a big mek with a MFF in a warbikestar?

B2) Can we make a warboss who can take DLS and other Gifts of Gork and Mork and/or Kustom Gubbinz on the same model?

C) If we can take W!G in a CAD does the rules for Biggest and Best, and Da Boss is Watchin' follow along or are they cut out?


Please answer if you have the material.

A) Kind of, the digital editions are out. At least for us that already had an versioon of Waagh Ghazkull already. Don't know if you can buy a new digital edition copy and get it right away though.

B) No.

B1) Yes, if you take a formation which include a big mek (Dred mob is the only one), or take a Great waaagh band-detachment. Then you have to take either a Waagh band or a Goff killmob as a core choice. Then you can take a single big mek as a command choice.

B2) The warboss can have one Gift of Gork and mork relic and several Orkimedes kustom gubbinz relics.

C) If you by that mean that you take an IC from the Waaagh Ghaz supplement and put the IC in a unit from a CAD. Then the rules Da biggest an da best and the Boss is watchin from the Waagh Ghaz supplement will carry over to that unit. It specifically says so in the Ghaz supplement rules.

 Multimoog wrote:

 warboss wrote:
That's just a wordier version of the stock response. Acknowledge your concerns, empathize, pass the buck, encouragement. It's the same format that others have posted and what I got when expressing concerns regarding 6th and 7th editions of 40k.

Yeah, but it's slso coming from customer support. About a product that still hasn't seen wide release (right now it's still just early updates to digital versions). The people answering these emails literally don't have anything else TO say. We're not looking to get a response from them that rules are changing, we're asking them to pass these complaints and comments along to the design team in the hopes they'll announce a change. It's sending these emails in volume to let GW know we're not OK with the rules.

Hopefully you are also limiting your purchases as well because as long as purchases continue as usual GW doesn't CARE whether or not you are happy with rules.

It's sales they are after. Not satisfaction for rules. That's only of interest if it limits sales.

Voting with wallet is only way to make them change anything.

Thanks for trying to help me out here.

By "out" I mean is the Great Waaagh! Detachment stricken from the records, is it removed from the Waaagh! Ghazghkull supplement, is it out of the game?

So far I've had a "yes" and a "no" to my first question.

I don't think it is possible to make a decent warbikestar if you try to fit in the Great Waaagh!-band Detachment.

Waaargh wrote:
Thanks for trying to help me out here.

By "out" I mean is the Great Waaagh! Detachment stricken from the records, is it removed from the Waaagh! Ghazghkull supplement, is it out of the game?

So far I've had a "yes" and a "no" to my first question.

I don't think it is possible to make a decent warbikestar if you try to fit in the Great Waaagh!-band Detachment.

It's not in v2 of W!G, but GW has said the first version is still completely valid in 7E. The only people saying it's invalidated are people assuming tournaments will ban content from v1 as it's "not the most current volume". Which hasn't actually been said by any tournament officials and likely WON'T be, because that would be moronic.

The argument goes that because there's an updated version, it must be used; otherwise people could take a 5E codex and use it in tournaments. Which is doubly moronic, because W!G v1 is still a 7E book, and all its rules are compatible with the current edition.

Then again, if a tournament flatly bans the book because of that technicality without taking anything else into consideration, those people are idiots and that's another of the many, MANY reasons not to play tournament 40K.

E: And if someone won't play you in a casual game due to that technicality, you have every reason in the world to punch them in the stomach as hard as you can, no jury would convict you.

 Multimoog wrote:
It's not in v2 of W!G, but GW has said the first version is still completely valid in 7E. The only people saying it's invalidated are people assuming tournaments will ban content from v1 as it's "not the most current volume". Which hasn't actually been said by any tournament officials and likely WON'T be, because that would be moronic.

ITC:

All current source material is allowed

Now...Do they define an older version of the book, while still 7E, "current"? It doesn't say "written under the current edition of 40k" it just says "current". Is it possible for a book to have 2 versions that are both "current" when they have different ages?

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
It's not in v2 of W!G, but GW has said the first version is still completely valid in 7E. The only people saying it's invalidated are people assuming tournaments will ban content from v1 as it's "not the most current volume". Which hasn't actually been said by any tournament officials and likely WON'T be, because that would be moronic.

ITC:

All current source material is allowed

Now...Do they define an older version of the book, while still 7E, "current"? It doesn't say "written under the current edition of 40k" it just says "current". Is it possible for a book to have 2 versions that are both "current" when they have different ages?

GW says the first version is valid in games of 40K 7E. Like I said, if a tournament is denying that's current, they're dumb. Then again, there hasn't been any tournament ruling anywhere. Ask a tournament official or wait until an official statement is made either way. The first version is officially still valid in casual games. Or cry and moan, I don't care (that's the most appealing aspect of the hobby for most 40K players these days anyway).

Itc has already switched over to the newest ghazzy suppliment, and stated they were saddened they could no longer run the green tide, and even ran a game thursday with the new suppliment.

Also its not just tournaments. Its VERY clearly the updated version, I wouldnt let anyone playing me use it anymore than I would let them use their 5th ed core rule book. Things change and you have to adapt or move on.

Really? I saw their stream that they did Friday, the same one where they talked about being swarmed with deliveries, and they didn't seem to give an answer one way or the other; in fact I remember Reece saying specifically that he didn't know how they were gonna handle that and that it really sucks having your army invalidated.

Just had a positive thought. This is still the Waaagh ghazkull supplement afterall, not the full ork codex.maybe the reason the green tide was removed was so they can put it in the Ork codex proper as a core choice there instead. Bad news in the short term, but better in the long run as being in the core book would mean no boss is watching or biggest and best. They could do say green tide and a speed freeks based formation as core (to push new buggy kits they would be required) and maybe borrow a few others like how far sight shares some formations with core tau. And a proper ork book that updates units could help Waaagh ghazkull formations in return like making the nauts into superheavies and buffing dreads.

In the "Core" section it has a parenthetical 1 by Warboss - can Ghaz be brought as the Warboss in the core detachments? Or is that parenthetical 1 just a note for Grukk to be okay to bring?

That smells balls.

Don't quite know where I am with competitive 40K now. With tau silliness about, and everything else with easy access to ignore cover (White Scars).

That's so absurd to have 2 versions of the same book be legal.. and have different things in each book.

I wish Tau or Eldar had had a similar kind of revised and updated detachment.

 Orock wrote:
Itc has already switched over to the newest ghazzy suppliment, and stated they were saddened they could no longer run the green tide, and even ran a game thursday with the new suppliment.

Also its not just tournaments. Its VERY clearly the updated version, I wouldnt let anyone playing me use it anymore than I would let them use their 5th ed core rule book. Things change and you have to adapt or move on.

You sound like a reasonable and thoughtful opponent, but are you saying that since I've only got the original, more expensive edition that you would refuse to play against my council of the waagh formation?
I also use gunwagons from IA8 in tournaments, should I shred these books?

 r_squared wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Itc has already switched over to the newest ghazzy suppliment, and stated they were saddened they could no longer run the green tide, and even ran a game thursday with the new suppliment.

Also its not just tournaments. Its VERY clearly the updated version, I wouldnt let anyone playing me use it anymore than I would let them use their 5th ed core rule book. Things change and you have to adapt or move on.

You sound like a reasonable and thoughtful opponent, but are you saying that since I've only got the original, more expensive edition that you would refuse to play against my council of the waagh formation?
I also use gunwagons from IA8 in tournaments, should I shred these books?

You probably should, yes considering how old IA8 :p Don't blame the PLAYER for GW"s lack of giving-a-damn about rule clarity. There has never been an instance where two copies of the same book have been legal.

Personally I'm hoping MajorWes was on to something and a new Ork codex is coming sooner rather than later, but I doubt it.

This is my guess. Green Tide was deleted since relic options were expanded to include access to Orkimedes Kustom Gubbins and Relics of Gork and Mork.

This means that you could have combined Big Bosspole and DLS in the same mass unit of ork boyz, which would mean 10 combined units of orks that each have WS 5 and fearless in the same unit. It's just too obvious of a thing to do.

If a new Ork codex came out and wasn't terrible, that would save me from shelving the entire game. I'm old, and busy, and hobby time is at a premium so it's really hard to spend it on a game who's creators wont invest in it appropriately.

 Multimoog wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
It's not in v2 of W!G, but GW has said the first version is still completely valid in 7E. The only people saying it's invalidated are people assuming tournaments will ban content from v1 as it's "not the most current volume". Which hasn't actually been said by any tournament officials and likely WON'T be, because that would be moronic.

ITC:

All current source material is allowed

Now...Do they define an older version of the book, while still 7E, "current"? It doesn't say "written under the current edition of 40k" it just says "current". Is it possible for a book to have 2 versions that are both "current" when they have different ages?

GW says the first version is valid in games of 40K 7E. Like I said, if a tournament is denying that's current, they're dumb. Then again, there hasn't been any tournament ruling anywhere. Ask a tournament official or wait until an official statement is made either way. The first version is officially still valid in casual games. Or cry and moan, I don't care (that's the most appealing aspect of the hobby for most 40K players these days anyway).

I've sent my own feedback to GW as well but I never heard anything back. I also haven't seen GW post anything about both books being validated. i know it's something GW would say but until something official comes out I wouldn't allow old books to be valid.

Regarding IA8 rumour again says forgeworld has no intention of updating that book. Someone online stated forgeworld wasn't impressed with the sales of models related to that book.

 r_squared wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Itc has already switched over to the newest ghazzy suppliment, and stated they were saddened they could no longer run the green tide, and even ran a game thursday with the new suppliment.

Also its not just tournaments. Its VERY clearly the updated version, I wouldnt let anyone playing me use it anymore than I would let them use their 5th ed core rule book. Things change and you have to adapt or move on.

You sound like a reasonable and thoughtful opponent, but are you saying that since I've only got the original, more expensive edition that you would refuse to play against my council of the waagh formation?
I also use gunwagons from IA8 in tournaments, should I shred these books?

Hey I play orks too ya know. If I was playing someone and they had the original I wouldnt mind if they printed out the new updates and slipped em into their book, or heck just printed out the new stuff and ddi not have the old book. But yet I would insist on the most recent updated rules regardless of how crap they are. As far as IA8, I still use it. Its so old it dosent even have hull points listed for vehicles, but there are updated faq's out there with them. They havent replaced IA8 yet so I would be ok with it. But if they did, and for example got rid of everyones favorite bike-making-troop warboss wazdakka, I would not let someone continue to run him, regardless of how much it invalidates their army. You sholdnt have to spend half an hour pre game on a pickup discussing what is and isnt illegal. Even if the book is crap, its at least universal.

Also if you want to complain about units suddenly becoming invalidated, there is a long history of that. Ask space wolves players if they miss their leman russes ( yes they used to have them) or iron warrior players if they miss their imperial guard basalisks.

 TedNugent wrote:
This is my guess. Green Tide was deleted since relic options were expanded to include access to Orkimedes Kustom Gubbins and Relics of Gork and Mork.

This means that you could have combined Big Bosspole and DLS in the same mass unit of ork boyz, which would mean 10 combined units of orks that each have WS 5 and fearless in the same unit. It's just too obvious of a thing to do.

You can anyway, I used to run the tide with a second Warboss from a CAD equipped with DLS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orock wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Itc has already switched over to the newest ghazzy suppliment, and stated they were saddened they could no longer run the green tide, and even ran a game thursday with the new suppliment.

Also its not just tournaments. Its VERY clearly the updated version, I wouldnt let anyone playing me use it anymore than I would let them use their 5th ed core rule book. Things change and you have to adapt or move on.

You sound like a reasonable and thoughtful opponent, but are you saying that since I've only got the original, more expensive edition that you would refuse to play against my council of the waagh formation?
I also use gunwagons from IA8 in tournaments, should I shred these books?

Hey I play orks too ya know. If I was playing someone and they had the original I wouldnt mind if they printed out the new updates and slipped em into their book, or heck just printed out the new stuff and ddi not have the old book. But yet I would insist on the most recent updated rules regardless of how crap they are. As far as IA8, I still use it. Its so old it dosent even have hull points listed for vehicles, but there are updated faq's out there with them. They havent replaced IA8 yet so I would be ok with it. But if they did, and for example got rid of everyones favorite bike-making-troop warboss wazdakka, I would not let someone continue to run him, regardless of how much it invalidates their army. You sholdnt have to spend half an hour pre game on a pickup discussing what is and isnt illegal. Even if the book is crap, its at least universal.

Also if you want to complain about units suddenly becoming invalidated, there is a long history of that. Ask space wolves players if they miss their leman russes ( yes they used to have them) or iron warrior players if they miss their imperial guard basalisks.

So, can I play the Council of the Waaagh formation against you or not? My printer is busted, and besides, most GW stores may frown on me bringing printed out pages from one of their books. ;-)