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I don't think PP makes very good models- to the point that I consider them closer to board game pieces already, than to lines like wyrd, corvus belli, kingdom death, even GW in all their overwrought gaudiness, where the minis have varying degrees of merit and were considered a priority, beyond being game tokens (and yes, of course they're all game tokens, from the best display-painted character to the lowliest cardboard chit). I think that you should be allowed to use worse models regardless of if they're worse since they're still just game pieces.

In fact, I'd say that of all the above games- if they're recognizable and the right size, I think there's nothing wrong with discount space marines or monsters or whatever. I really like the hobby, but if you're just in it for the rules, why pay more for content you don't care about?

 MLaw wrote:
Look at the Dungeon Saga pieces.. they are utter GAK.. I am not sure how Mantic feels about using them in events but would you really want to?

Is this sarcasm?

Cause the Dungeon Saga models are more than good enough to stand up against the regular Mantic models, (some are arguably better) and not just compared to the lesser of Mantics offerings, like the much maligned men-at-arms, but they give the regular Undead range (generally considered Mantic's best stuff) a run for it's money.


Are people seriously claiming that the WW models, given a decent paintjob, would look out of place mixed in with PP's regular models?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I don't think PP makes very good models- to the point that I consider them closer to board game pieces already, than to lines like wyrd, corvus belli, kingdom death, even GW in all their overwrought gaudiness, where the minis have varying degrees of merit and were considered a priority, beyond being game tokens (and yes, of course they're all game tokens, from the best display-painted character to the lowliest cardboard chit). I think that you should be allowed to use worse models regardless of if they're worse since they're still just game pieces.

In fact, I'd say that of all the above games- if they're recognizable and the right size, I think there's nothing wrong with discount space marines or monsters or whatever. I really like the hobby, but if you're just in it for the rules, why pay more for content you don't care about?

If you're not a fan of PP models in the first place then you don't really have a dog in this fight..

On Mantic's DS stuff.. I'm not even going to respond to that. If you think they're of good quality then we don't have a legitimate frame of reference upon which to communicate.

No, not particularly, just discussing things b/c I used to like the company more, and a big discount on some okay-quality guys could have been enough to push me back their way, but they're not doing it.

 MLaw wrote:
On Mantic's DS stuff.. I'm not even going to respond to that. If you think they're of good quality then we don't have a legitimate frame of reference upon which to communicate.

This is going off topic so I won't belabor the point further. I'll just post some comparasion pictures and then leave it be.
Apparently you feel it's totally absurd to claim that these miniatures:

are even comparable to these:

I obviously feel they are (and arguably better looking), but whatever. That's just like, my opinion, man.

It might be the paint job, but the first set looks comparable but a bit better?

Those aren't the production miniatures. Mantic has a bad habit of using the master sculpts to represent what you're going to kit in their KS.. Watch some unboxing videos of DS contents.

Back on-topic but related to that point.. DS and WW are using soft plastics which have shrinkage and bendyness. That's where most of the loss of detail comes from. I'm personally glad PP is being so up front about the quality of minis because if they used the existing game versions of those models painted by studio painters and then gakky boardgame plastics with soft details showed up people would be livid.

Yeah I wasn't as super impressed with the DS minis as others seem to be, but they serve the purpose well enough.

Well, it looks like they're going to close out the week with a majority of days over the $1k line, though today (Friday's) pledges seem in no small part buoyed by the addition of a new, 'luxury' pledge level. I'm a fan of woodwork, but this new addition is pushing it, price wise.

I continue to find it difficult to muster enthusiasm as the campaign continues, and I think the reason is the very limited hero selection. I understand it: heroes, being individual sculpts, are going to be some of the most expensive things to add. On the other hand, I really think that they are the animating force for a boardgame campaign of this type. Look at all the big campaigns; Zombicide, Arcadia Quest, Super Dungeon Explore, even going back to Sedition Wars.

Unlike table top games, these kinds of games lend them-self easily to the idea of player-avatar, and if there isn't a hero that interests you, I think that it is very difficult for people to get emotionally interested in the game. The current line-up of heroes is... well, rather lacking, IMO. Not least of which because it's supposed to be a 'monster hero' game, and most of the heroes are now humans/elves. Not only that, but two of the seven are characters that already exist in WM/Hordes, and already have miniatures.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Well, it looks like the 'lul' period is well and truly in force now;

Spoiler:

Two days of sub $1k gains in the last week, no backsliding at least though.

For those curious, I stand by my earlier critique that the real excitement that drives a boardgame campaign is different heroes, and WW (for some reason) frontloaded all the heroes and hasn't (to the best of my knowledge) even teased any of the ideas people were advancing (they totally should be making the female warpborn skinwalker I suggested).

There remain a lot of choices in this campaign that I simply don't understand. The most inexplicable is the decision that the models are outright banned from tournament play. That just strikes me as a completely unnecessary poke in the eye to backers.

 Zywus wrote:
Does Warhahorde 'official tournaments' usually have painting requirements BTW?

The Steamroller format, as standard, doesn't - that's the one you're likely to see played at LGS-size events. I think there is a Steamroller variant that allows you to add a painting requirement, but if there is, I don't think it is a popular variant.

Some of the convention-level events may have painting requirements - I remember that the Hardcore format had them, for example, but I'm not sure if the replacement format does.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Zywus wrote:
Does Warhahorde 'official tournaments' usually have painting requirements BTW?

The Steamroller format, as standard, doesn't - that's the one you're likely to see played at LGS-size events. I think there is a Steamroller variant that allows you to add a painting requirement, but if there is, I don't think it is a popular variant.

Some of the convention-level events may have painting requirements - I remember that the Hardcore format had them, for example, but I'm not sure if the replacement format does.

If so, I'd say it's pretty obvious that disallowing the WW models in the official tournaments have nothing to do with any concerns about the game's presentation, since a force of painted and based WW models (even to a fairly rudimentary standard) would still look far more appealing to than a unpainted force of 'proper' bare metal/plastic/resin/restic Warmahode models.

It's a purely artificial restriction, intended to discourage the use of cheaper but fully functional models.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Zywus wrote:
Does Warhahorde 'official tournaments' usually have painting requirements BTW?

The Steamroller format, as standard, doesn't - that's the one you're likely to see played at LGS-size events. I think there is a Steamroller variant that allows you to add a painting requirement, but if there is, I don't think it is a popular variant.

Some of the convention-level events may have painting requirements - I remember that the Hardcore format had them, for example, but I'm not sure if the replacement format does.

Hardcore does/did

Champions (new format replacing Hardcore) will

Iron Gauntlet (PP's "premier" format) is also fully painted

Any SR event can be mandated as fully painted, but its rare to never enforced as it drives players away and that's never a good thing.

 MLaw wrote:


A Monopoly token is also quite bad quality compared to most wargaming miniatures. But as a boardgame token, it's perfectly acceptable. And still would be even if the company that makes Monopoly also made a wargame that used similarly designed but better quality miniatures.

THIS!

Look at the Dungeon Saga pieces.. they are utter GAK.. I am not sure how Mantic feels about using them in events but would you really want to?

For anyone who has much experience playing the Undercity game, what are your thoughts? Is the game fun? I like the premise, and really enjoy the Iron Kingdoms setting/fluff, the figures are all right looking (though, the rubbery nature of the minis kind of has me a little gun shy, as I'd like to use the figures for Warmahordes as well) .

And is this basically a carbon copy of Undercity, except in the woods rather than underground?

Best to ask these questions on BoardGameGeek. You can also find some reviews there about Undercity.

 Fango wrote:
(though, the rubbery nature of the minis kind of has me a little gun shy, as I'd like to use the figures for Warmahordes as well) .

Going by the painted pics shown earlier in the thread, they would be fine (outside of 'official' events, obviously). If they're the same plastic as the Grind miniatures, it's softer than the regular plastic and slightly flexible, but still more 'soft plastic' than 'hard rubber'..

 Fango wrote:
For anyone who has much experience playing the Undercity game, what are your thoughts? Is the game fun? I like the premise, and really enjoy the Iron Kingdoms setting/fluff, the figures are all right looking (though, the rubbery nature of the minis kind of has me a little gun shy, as I'd like to use the figures for Warmahordes as well) .

And is this basically a carbon copy of Undercity, except in the woods rather than underground?

I've played it. It's okish. You can level your characters and choose different traits/skills much like Imperial Assault. The game AI can be gamed so there are times where you will just steamroll the mission. The biggest question is if you subscribe to NQ, PPs magazine. If not, you're stuck with only the base 8 missions with NO variety in them. Yep, a 99usd rrp game only has base 8 missions with no variety. And it's linear too so if you fail the mission, it doesn't lead to another mission like imperial assault does. You just have to keep replaying it till you pass.

Sining wrote:

I've played it. It's okish. You can level your characters and choose different traits/skills much like Imperial Assault. The game AI can be gamed so there are times where you will just steamroll the mission. The biggest question is if you subscribe to NQ, PPs magazine. If not, you're stuck with only the base 8 missions with NO variety in them. Yep, a 99usd rrp game only has base 8 missions with no variety. And it's linear too so if you fail the mission, it doesn't lead to another mission like imperial assault does. You just have to keep replaying it till you pass.

That's a big reason I would recommend this Kickstarter if people are interested in getting the game, since the KS version will contain extra missions, including ones using the KS exclusive models. The heroes from Widower's Wood can also be used in the Undercity and vice-versa, which increases replayability as well.

Which brings me to a fairly sizable update. The Boss Swamp Gobber has been unlocked:


The Blackhide Wrastler has also been converted into a social stretch goal, with 1000 Facebook shares and 500 Twitter retweets needed to unlock it:


At the rate that it is going, it is likely that the Wrastler will be unlocked today or early tomorrow, before the 48 hour reminder emails go out. This is also good news, since it moves the Swamp Horror stretch goal down a slot, meaning that it is $25,000 closer than it was before.

The value of the KS is definitely still increasing, and I am hoping that we see a large upswing in the last 48 hours, so any help in spreading the word is appreciated. I also definitely recommend pledging to anyone who wants to get into the game, due to all the added value.

It'sgood to see that they're using the new Wrastler sculpt.

Which, come to think of it, should be showing up on store shelves fairly soon....

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
It'sgood to see that they're using the new Wrastler sculpt.

Which, come to think of it, should be showing up on store shelves fairly soon....

The KS sculpt is based on the new plastic Wrastler, but has a few unique features, for example the Ironback shell on the right arm and feathers added to the hood. As far as we know this particular sculpt will be KS exclusive.


The campaign is also halfway to the next stretch goal, which is another four club gatormen and another new scenario, which is another nice increase in value for people who want minis and increased replay value:


I will try to get a post together later tonight to show the rough wargaming value of the KS for those, like myself, who are looking at using the miniatures from Widower's Wood in non-convention games of Hordes and Warmachine.

 Zywus wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Zywus wrote:
Does Warhahorde 'official tournaments' usually have painting requirements BTW?

The Steamroller format, as standard, doesn't - that's the one you're likely to see played at LGS-size events. I think there is a Steamroller variant that allows you to add a painting requirement, but if there is, I don't think it is a popular variant.

Some of the convention-level events may have painting requirements - I remember that the Hardcore format had them, for example, but I'm not sure if the replacement format does.

If so, I'd say it's pretty obvious that disallowing the WW models in the official tournaments have nothing to do with any concerns about the game's presentation, since a force of painted and based WW models (even to a fairly rudimentary standard) would still look far more appealing to than a unpainted force of 'proper' bare metal/plastic/resin/restic Warmahode models.

It's a purely artificial restriction, intended to discourage the use of cheaper but fully functional models.

Not artificial at all, actually. There's shrinkage in the models with attached bases in stuff like the Unleashed box and Undercity. The bases are 1-2mm smaller in diameter than an actual WM/H 30mm base.

I guess it would have been impossible to take shrinkage into account to have them be the same size.

And it would be equally, if not more so, impossible for anyone to move the models to official bases:

The only solution is to disallow the models outright from 'official tournaments' or people will try to gain unfair advantages with their boardgame miniatures with 1-2mm smaller bases. Not artificial at all.

 Zywus wrote:
I guess it would have been impossible to take shrinkage into account to have them be the same size.

And it would be equally, if not more so, impossible for anyone to move the models to official bases:

The only solution is to disallow the models outright from 'official tournaments' or people will try to gain unfair advantages with their boardgame miniatures with 1-2mm smaller bases. Not artificial at all.

I've gotta jump in here and defend PP. My mother in law can determine clay shrinkage with a ruler made from calculations freely available online and a photoshopped pair of rulers. Do you think PP could just browse around the internet for 10 minutes or, say, their spend a few minutes to ask for manufacturers' calculations, and find those numbers for free to scale their minis appropriately? Time is money! Due diligence is too expensive!

This is a really bizarre place for gamer outrage to show up.

I"m guessing the models don't account for shrinkage because it doesn't matter in boardgame materials, and they simply used the same (or altered) masters as the pewter models.

Still, they want to make some pretty cool boardgame tokens. They don't want people to use them instead of the more expensive proper kits. If you think you've just cracked the case of the profit seeking company, take a bow Nancy Drew.

Pretty sure I mentioned shrinkage a few pages back. I think Polonius' notion is the right direction. For them to have the boardgame pieces in the exact same size as the proper line that would've meant new sculpts and tooling and all that.
As I mentioned previously this is probably why the vast majority of this KS is non-humans with broader features. Shrinkage doesn't destroy noses and fingers on models that have massive snouts and webbed flippers.

@ polonius- Man, way to overreact. I'm just poking at 'em with a stick since I think it was lazy at best and more likely just about protecting their (overpriced) prices.

 Polonius wrote:
This is a really bizarre place for gamer outrage to show up.

I"m guessing the models don't account for shrinkage because it doesn't matter in boardgame materials, and they simply used the same (or altered) masters as the pewter models.

Still, they want to make some pretty cool boardgame tokens. They don't want people to use them instead of the more expensive proper kits. If you think you've just cracked the case of the profit seeking company, take a bow Nancy Drew.

Well, duh.
You could almost describe it like:

 Zywus wrote:
It's a purely artificial restriction, intended to discourage the use of cheaper but fully functional models.

I've never argued otherwise. I just think it's petty. And it's silly that people pretend that there is another reason for disallowing the models.

You can just clip the model off the bases and rebase them. Or even just stick them on the actual base size with the boardgame base included. Actual model height doesn't matter since WMH has fixed heights for models

The last social stretch goal is a success, and the Blackhide Wrastler has been added to the deluxe edition pledge rewards, meaning that a pledge of that level now includes two heavy warbeasts:


We are currently less than $1500 away from the next stretch goal, four additional club gatormen and a new scenario, and look poised to unlock that goal before the 48 hour reminder e-mail goes out:


I am personally hoping for a big upsurge in pledges over the last few days of the campaign, and am excited to see what other stretch goals have not yet been revealed. The value of the pledge has increased a lot since the beginning of the campaign, and I am hopeful it will increase a great deal more before the campaign is over. Any assistance spreading the word is appreciated.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The campaign has entered its last 48 hours and the pace has certainly accelerated. Just today we have unlocked an additional four gatormen and another scenario:


And are already more than 2/3s of the way to the next goal, the boss small tatzylwurm:
https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/005/517/724/ec2bfcf1a7a31ced7edad5ed92548331_original.png?v=1457739127&w=680&fit=max&auto=format&lossless=true&s=079c54b6c5dcdc9510563c9e6a6bf9df

The deluxe edition pledge currently has 89 miniatures in it, as well as other Kickstarter exclusive material for the game, and I thought I would do a quick rundown of what is in it that could be proxied for Hordes. I know that these miniatures cannot be used in official tournaments, but with a simple rebasing (or without) they can easily be used in friendly games at home and at LGSs (the campaign coordinator even said that this would be acceptable, it is only official convention tournaments where this might be an issue). I have put together a list of models that can be easily proxied, as well as their points costs. I have not included miniatures that do not have a figure they naturally align with, like the small tatzylwurms (although some could be argued, like the Swamp Gobbers proxying for River Raiders); or miniatures that could be used to represent a large number of models (like Vaskis potentially standing in for almost any Druid of Orboros solo or unit leader).

At the current time the box contains:

Blindwater Congregation
2 Bog Trog Mist Speakers (2x?=?)
1 Full unit of Bog Trog Ambushers (8)
2 Full units of Gatormen Posse (2x9=18)
2 Gatormen Witch Doctors (2x3=6)
1 Unit of Gtorman Bokor and Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers (6)
2 Boneswarms (2x4=8)
1 Ironback Spitter (8)
1 Blackhide Wrastler (9)
Croak Hunter (2)

Circle Orboros:
Reeve Hunter (2)
War Wolf (1)

Assorted Minions:
2 Feralgiests (2x1=2)
Victor Pendrake (2)
Lanyssa Ryssyl (2)

That's 65 points of Gatormen, more than enough for most games. All a player will need is a warlock (although the boss gatorman witch doctor could easily stand in) and they are ready to go. There are also 3 points of Circle Orboros solos and 6 points of assorted minion solos, and that is not counting the pistol wraiths or thralls that could be used in Warmachine. If people want to use the Privateer Press bits store it would be an even better value, since by purchasing two more models they can add Dahlia and Skarath and Alexia and her unit of thralls to their army. I don't have time to work out how much all of that would cost to buy individually, but I know it would be a huge amount.

If we reach all the stretch goals that are currently listed (and there are more beyond those that we can hope for) it will add:
1 More unit of Gatormen Posse (9)
3 More Gatormen Witch Doctors (3x3=9)
1 Swamp Horror (8)

Another 26 points of gatormen, plus a boss small tatzylwurm and three more missions for the board game.

Overall I think this is an awesome deal for people who are interested in the game itself, looking to start a Blindwater Congregation force, or simply want minis for the Iron Kingdoms RPG, and I am excited to see how far this campaign goes. I would once again like to ask people to consider pledging and spreading the word of the campaign (I may sound like a broken record, but I don't work for Privateer Press, I just want as much value in the box as I can get )

**Update**
The Boss Small Tatzylwurm has been unlocked, bringing the total included in the deluxe box up to 90 miniatures:


And we are already more than halfway to unlocking a group of six tomahawk gatormen:


We are less than $60K from unlocking every currently revealed stretch goal, and Privateer Press has assured us there are more beyond that, so I once again urge everyone who is interested to pledge and spread the word.

**Update**

The campaign has unlocked the next stretch goal, adding six tomahawk gatormen to each deluxe and higher pledge, and increasing the total number of minis to 96:


The next stretch goal after that is a Boss Gatorman Bokor:


Privateer Press has also conducted a Twitter poll and changed the upcoming stretch goal beyond that, switching two additional Gatorman Bokors for ten Blowgun Bog Trogs. These will be unlocked when the campaign reaches $325K, and will bring the deluxe pledge up to 107 miniatures for $140:


Another stretch goal has also been announced for after the Swamp Horror is unlocked at $350K, which will be another pair of Bog Trog Mist Speakers at $362K.

Privateer Press has also announced that any funds that are added to the campaign in the pledge manager will also count towards unlocking stretch goals, adding more incentive for people who would like to pledge but don't have the full amount now.