Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Let's be fair here, the Gladius doesn't make Tactical Marines good, but they are decent for their points when they are essentially 3pts each and get a Razorback to ride around in.

I mean, 10 free Razorbacks and 3-4 free pods in an 1850 list is 690 free points.

Yeah saw the title and started laughing lol. Now I personally don't like saying anything is cheese or unfair, overpowered or anything along those lines as I like to think constructively, in this case how to beat it. But if you actually think that being able to take 10 free transports is not very strong, not to mention for very cheap points wise you can give them twin-linked assault cannons, lascannons, las-plas etc. you might want to take another look at your opinion. This is particularly nasty with certain Space Marine chapter tactics and be is very difficult to play against, especially bare bones against Razorbacks you are playing 550 points higher then your opponent with 10 of them.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tactical Squads are a tax until they get to purchase two Special Weapons.

So you agree that they are way better point for point than BSS but still call them a tax?

No, because they pay for unneeded rules.
You're also cutting off parts of my statement again. Didn't expect different after the first time though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tactical Squads are bad

With a free Razorback included? They are not bad. They get their one special weapon, and the Razorback weapons. Way better than equivalent points in SoB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:
It's not like you'd be able to spam penance engines and get free rhinos. You know what I'm saying?

Damn. I missed that. Penitent engine as something Sisters would like to spam? What the hell? Why? Just why?

Nice way to cut off the rest of my statement.

NO, the free Tactical Squad with the Razorback is nice. Tactical Squads are a tax until they get to purchase two Special Weapons. If Space Wolves had the same bonuses in their mega formation, it'd be completely stupid.

So you actually are implying that Sisters with free transports would be utterly broken?

No, but they would be better than Tactical Marines.
Space Marines themselves are still the superior army though, but don't attribute it to one of the few terrible units they have.

So, do you agree that Tacticals with a free rhino/razorback are better than BSS?
Another question: is there a SoB unit that is better point for point than tacticals with a free rhino/razorback, and which one?
If you cannot find any unit to fit this, then how could you call this thing that is better than everything in the SoB codex a tax? Just because it is not also better than everything else in the Marine codex?

Probably because SM plays on a competetive level? Why compare it to a dead codex?

Ok, so I played a 600 point game against a Daemons army player last night. Here's how this went down:

My opponent fielded 4 icons of Tzeench, the rest of his points being invested in pink horrors and upgrades.

He spent the next few turns summoning plaguebearers and bloodletters. By the time the game was over, he effectively had roughly 1000-1100 points on the table (including models I had killed) compared to my 600. I had (ignorantly) assaulted one of his groups of horrors, to which he had joined an icon with a 2+ REROLLABLE INVULN SAVE (I was unaware of this when I charged), effectively meaning that my the units I had were basically stuck there until he summoned enough bloodletters to go and kill them all with their AP 3 weapons.

And for the Demon player who is insisting that the summon ability forces you to forgo "shooty" type things, I wish to note:

1. That the person against whom I was playing specifically avoided using a psyker ability to force me to sacrifice one of my units in exchange for him getting a bloodthirster (he felt that that would be too cheesy for a 600 point game. )

and

2. Warp Storm

Just saying.

As I said, demons players: if you want me to feel bad for my "free stuff," you are barking up the wrong tree.

Er, my bad earlier, I'd meant to put "2x" Battle Demi-Companies gives the free transports. AKA Full Battle Company. But then you also need to take an Auxiliary.

We play mostly Eternal War missions, with the occasional Maelstrom / Multi-Player thrown in. We usually play 1500 -1850 point lists. We're pretty cut-throat. My most common opponent usually runs Eldar ScatterBike CAD + Wraith Host. My next most common opponent runs Necron Decurion, and changes up the Auxiliary depending on his mood. Next up is White Scars + IK, and Bike-Heavy DA + IK. I occasionally face Tau, and a pretty darned effective Nid list. I rarely get to play against Chaos Marines, but he's always rocking Be'Lakor, Nurgle Prince, Oblits a couple Heldrakes and some grunts.

So from that 1500 points, say, you're looking at minimum of 1045 [2x Minimum BDC + Minimum 10th Company]points to unlock 10 free HB Razorbacks [550 points, really worth about 450]. At 1500 points you've only got 455 left to make all those bolter-armed / Heavy Bolter armed models into a force to recon with. Even Razorbacks are overcosted compared to a Rhino. Really, that twin-HB light tank should be about 45 points, at most. So if you give each Tac squad a Plasmagun, give each Assault squad a pair of Flamers, and then give your Devs 2x Lascannons each, that eats up 190 points, leaving you 265 points. Let's give a Power Fist and Storm Shield to the Captain, so he can at least hope to hurt something in CC. So we've got 225 left.

So you can buff up some squads and add better guns to the Razors... but you can't afford another 3-of formation. You could take an Armoured Task Force, instead of the Scouts, which would let you more easily spend up those points, and add to the Target Saturation. Probably a better call, to be honest... Though I'd never tried it. Hmmmm.... I'm going to have to crunch some numbers, to see what I could make if I went down that road.

We use a fair bit of terrain, but they never seem to get far, and then the boys inside don't contribute much until they're ejected. Just my previous experience, but looking at this again with a fresh set of Eyes none of us really tried to go for tank saturation.

Hmmm... I'll be back to this.

No one is deny that summoning isn't powerful. I'm a Marine player and for me the key difference is what we get for free is guaranteed and there is nothing my opponent can do about it. Summoning isn't automatic and can be denied. Again, the GSF took third place in LVO and has done well in several tournaments.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
No one is deny that summoning isn't powerful. I'm a Marine player and for me the key difference is what we get for free is guaranteed and there is nothing my opponent can do about it. Summoning isn't automatic and can be denied. Again, the GSF took third place in LVO and has done well in several tournaments.

This last point keeps getting repeated. I simply don't see "they are doing OK at tournaments" as equivalent to "unfair." I'm not saying that the Gladius Strike Force is underpowered. I'm saying that it's not unfair. Are you wanting to say that something has to be unfair for it to rank 3rd at a tournament?

And the point about "nothing my opponent can do about it" is also pretty silly, given that we're talking about demons. He was generating over 10 warp charges every turn, not counting dice rolls. Even if I was running a librarian, what could I have really "done" about his summons?

Not to mention that on the Warp Storm, he got a free unit of bloodletters on double 6s. What could I "do" about him rolling a double 6?

Fact is, demon players more than likely decided to run demons for the cheese.

But they'll complain about my free transports?

wait... third place at the largest 40k tournament in the US is only ok?! 3rd out of 300 is bloody amazing!

 Swampmist wrote:
wait... third place at the largest 40k tournament in the US is only ok?! 3rd out of 300 is bloody amazing!

I still don't see how this equates to "unfair."

Not to mention that this completely ignores things like luck, player skill, etc.

Traditio wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
No one is deny that summoning isn't powerful. I'm a Marine player and for me the key difference is what we get for free is guaranteed and there is nothing my opponent can do about it. Summoning isn't automatic and can be denied. Again, the GSF took third place in LVO and has done well in several tournaments.

This last point keeps getting repeated. I simply don't see "they are doing OK at tournaments" as equivalent to "unfair." I'm not saying that the Gladius Strike Force is underpowered. I'm saying that it's not unfair. Are you wanting to say that something has to be unfair for it to rank 3rd at a tournament?

Maybe you should define "unfair".
Because your definition of Ok at tournaments is probably wildly different from the average poster (3rd out of a few hundred isn't average at all, imo).

But for the record, yes. Something most likely is unfair if it's placing well at a tournament. GSF, Warp spider Spam, Riptide wing are all unfair and did quite well.

Traditio wrote:

And the point about "nothing my opponent can do about it" is also pretty silly, given that we're talking about demons. He was generating over 10 warp charges every turn. Even if I was running a librarian, what could I have really "done" about his summons?

He could still fail to summon, you can roll some 6's, some armies have a bit better anti-psyker stuff than others, and it costs warp charges that could be used for other things. It's a trade off on some level that the GSF doesn't emulate.
If the gladius strike force said "No choice from the marine codex generates warp charges" it would be a bit more fair. It's a poor example, but you see what I'm getting at.

Besides, a lot of people hate the summoning rules. When the power was released, the internet exploded. It's simply not as strong as it used to be, although many people don't like it.

Traditio wrote:

Not to mention that on the Warp Storm, he got a free unit of bloodletters on double 6s. What could I "do" about him rolling a double 6?

The storm is wildly complained about, being so random and not really allowing anyone to do anything about it on either end.

Traditio wrote:

Fact is, demon players more than likely decided to run demons for the cheese.

But they'll complain about my free transports?

Demon players more than likely decided to play demons because they can be in 40k and fantasy, or they just like demons. Demons aren't really a cheesy army in 40k's history like they are in fantasy.
Eldar players, sure. I won't agree that is the reason (Space elves seems to be the more common reason) but at least they have a history of strong dexes and being high up on the power curve. But demons?

It seems your complaint is basically "Well there is other stuff that's unfair so why complain about my thing?".
The GSF is just the newest example of free points, and the strongest in the most commonly found format. Don't take it personally.

Fair is subjective but from the perspective of most players I can see why it would be seem unfair. The power level of the 7.5 codexes compared to all the other books is very out of whack. Marines are all ready a top army. Compared to the garbage that is half the armies in the game we are in very good shape. Then you add in a formation that gives you several hundred points for free, I can see why it bothers many players.

Akiasura wrote:
]It seems your complaint is basically "Well there is other stuff that's unfair so why complain about my thing?".

That's basically it. Given wraithknights, scatter bikes, the Tau, summon rules, Necron ducurion, and all of the other broken crap in 40k, why on earth complain about free rhinos?

I'd agree that free rhinos, drop pods or razorbacks would be unfair if wraithknights didn't exist, if riptides didn't exist, if summon rules didn't exist, etc.

But we're already playing an unfair game. Compared to wraithknights and scatter bikes, free rhinos seem pretty tame. Don't you think?

At least my rhinos don't come with 2+ rerollable invulns.

Its quite simple to point out just how unfair these get stuff free detachments are. This is how to compare them:

Don't see fee stuff as free but as a discount on the stuff that comes it with. So in case of the Rzorback spammers just assume that you paid good points for the razorback ( since it is clearly worth it ) and that the marines are the one getting discounted.

This makes 5 man marine squads 15 points...making marines cost 3 points a model. It isn't hard to see why this is broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could do the same stuff with other codexes but those bonuses are harder to calculate into points. But I am quite sure that Eldar, Necron and Tau units would also become horrible cheap when you discounted them for their bonuses.

Traditio wrote:
Ok, so I played a 600 point game against a Daemons army player last night. Here's how this went down:

My opponent fielded 4 icons of Tzeench, the rest of his points being invested in pink horrors and upgrades.

He spent the next few turns summoning plaguebearers and bloodletters. By the time the game was over, he effectively had roughly 1000-1100 points on the table (including models I had killed) compared to my 600. I had (ignorantly) assaulted one of his groups of horrors, to which he had joined an icon with a 2+ REROLLABLE INVULN SAVE (I was unaware of this when I charged), effectively meaning that my the units I had were basically stuck there until he summoned enough bloodletters to go and kill them all with their AP 3 weapons.

And for the Demon player who is insisting that the summon ability forces you to forgo "shooty" type things, I wish to note:

1. That the person against whom I was playing specifically avoided using a psyker ability to force me to sacrifice one of my units in exchange for him getting a bloodthirster (he felt that that would be too cheesy for a 600 point game. )

and

2. Warp Storm

Just saying.

As I said, demons players: if you want me to feel bad for my "free stuff," you are barking up the wrong tree.

By '4 icons of Tzeentch' I assume you mean 4 Heralds of Tzeentch?.

I'm guessing his army was 4 Heralds - one with the Grimoire - with 3 11-strong Horror squads and 1 10-strong Horror squad? or 4 Heralds - one with Grimoire - each upgraded to be a lvl 3 Psyker and 3 11-strong Horror squads?

So you charged the one unit that can get a 2++. Let me guess, your opponent said "I'm using my Grimoire on this unit here" and then "I'm using Cursed Earth now" and you didn't ask them what they did?
If you don't know what your opponent is doing you should ask so you can plan for it. Also the Grimoire has a 1/3 chance of making that save worse (a 4++ rerolling 1's) instead of a 2++.

Also...
1. Sacrifice and Possession don't work that way. They damage/kill models on the Psyker's side, not their opponents.

2. Warp Storm has 4 shooty results, which only effect units on 6's and 1 of the results would also have damaged his army. Also the attacks a fairly pitiful being either a single Large Blast or D6 hits.Woo. 1 in 6 of your units just got 3 hits on them. I'd hardly call that shooting, considering the Daemon player has no control over which units are hit or when it happens and even when it does basically nothing happens.

And...

3. You play using armies that focus basically solely on Tactical Marines.

4. Why did you even charge the Horrors? Shooting them boltguns would have been just as if not more effective without forcing your unit to attack the one unit with a 2++.

5. 600 points is really limiting for armies like Space Marines which want to have heavy hitters like Centurions or Grav-bikes or Obsec spam that requires 2 Formations. That said, you could have still fielded 1 heavy hitter, but no you just took Tactical Marines because that's what you do. If you have taken some vehicles like Predators the Daemons wouldn't have easily been able to damage it.

6. The Daemon player would have been getting a maximum of 18+D6 Warp Charges per turn. That's enough for a good chance of getting 2-3 Summoning spells off along with a Cursed Earth, and that's assuming you don't kill 1 Horror from each squad (which puts it down to 15+D6, making that 3rd Summoning unreliable if they want to cast Cursed Earth as well). They also would have been suffering a Perils result on average about once a turn. Of those 3 Summoning spells they'll fail off the top of my head ~1 every phase, so that's ~200 points every turn. 200 points that can't do jack for a turn and have to get in assault with you to do anything. And they did, because you ignored them then advanced into them!

Traditio wrote:
Ok, so I played a 600 point game against a Daemons army player last night. Here's how this went down:

My opponent fielded 4 icons of Tzeench, the rest of his points being invested in pink horrors and upgrades.

He spent the next few turns summoning plaguebearers and bloodletters. By the time the game was over, he effectively had roughly 1000-1100 points on the table (including models I had killed) compared to my 600. I had (ignorantly) assaulted one of his groups of horrors, to which he had joined an icon with a 2+ REROLLABLE INVULN SAVE (I was unaware of this when I charged), effectively meaning that my the units I had were basically stuck there until he summoned enough bloodletters to go and kill them all with their AP 3 weapons.

1. The Tzeentch Icons will only prevent Deep Strike scatter entirely for other 'Daemon of Tzeentch' models. Everything else still scatters D6".

2. Summoning is broken as gak in games under 1k pts, in the same manner that bringing 2 Leman Russes, or min/maxed Gravcents, or pure Scatbikers, etc... is.
Still, assuming he ran 1 Lv.3 Tzherald + 4 units of 11 Pink Horrors, (2x Lv3's + 3x 11 Horrors) that's 11-12+D6 WC's/turn, meaning 1st turn he can likely try for 2 summons. Unless he's also summoning more Pinkies/Tzheralds, he's not gorwing his Warp Charge pool. (which is the whole point of Clown Car).
Kill 1 Pink Horror per unit, and he loses a Warp Charge right away.

The key here being, always go after the summoners when playing against a Clown Car army!
You typically have 2 almost entirely 'free' turns of the Daemons just making more of themselves, while being almost entirely unable to actively hurt your own forces... This is why it's a bad army overall. Literally any kind of Alpha Strike army will murder the Clown Car before it can become uncontrollable!

As Marines, take a couple Drop Pods, aim for the summoning unit(s) and Flamer/Bolter them to death ASAP! (they're T3/5++ - everyone's favourite kind of target!)

3. There is absolutely no way you couldn't have known that his Horror unit was running a re-rolled 2++. Either he cheated, or you didn't pay attention/ask about his abilities & wargear...
To gain the re-rolled 2++, he needs to;
a) cast either Cursed Earth (Malefic power), or cast Forwarning (Divination power), or get increadibly lucky and roll up the +1 invuln save result on the Warpstorm table.
b) use the Grimoire of True Names on the same unit - and risk a 33% chance of it backfiring an instead inflicting -1 invuln save. (hence why Fateweaver is so damn popular!)

Now the most important bit; the model carrying the Grimoire CANNOT! gain the +2 to their invuln save!! (if he claimed it for the bookworm, then he cheated)
So, hunt down the offending Grimoire totting gribbly. At best he can get a 3++/re-roll 1's, which requires TWO invuln boosting powers/abilities to gain.

Is this to say that a re-rolled 2++ is fair? Absolutely it isn't! And especially at just 600pts it's a classless, filthy hobo thing to do. But it's not exactly automatic, (and building it up also takes away from the Summoning resources), and to guarantee it you basically end up investing the better part of 800pts to ensure it actually works properly.
(and yes, I fully agree that re-rolled 2++ is one of the most broken things currently in the game!)

Traditio wrote:
And for the Demon player who is insisting that the summon ability forces you to forgo "shooty" type things, I wish to note:

1. That the person against whom I was playing specifically avoided using a psyker ability to force me to sacrifice one of my units in exchange for him getting a bloodthirster (he felt that that would be too cheesy for a 600 point game. )

and

2. Warp Storm

Just saying.

As I said, demons players: if you want me to feel bad for my "free stuff," you are barking up the wrong tree.

1. There is no rule or power that sacrifices an enemy unit for a Greater Daemon! The actual model casting the Possession power is the one who gets killed & replaced. (in the case of Pink Horrors using that power, the entire unit gets killed off!)

2. The Warpstorm chart has 4 results that then require you rolling a '6' to actually hit an enemy unit. And 2 of those results use the small blast marker, which then scatters!
Yeah, that's some scary 'firepower' right there...

You got trolled by a dude who brought a filthy list and by the sounds of it, also cheated! Quit trying to tar every single Daemon player as nothing more than a power gaming WaaC's donkeycave.
Your army is also laughably the single best army in the entire game at taking Clown Car out behind the shed and murdering it.

At 600 points you can't legally field a full Battle Company anyways. The marines alone runs you 700 points naked and that's not counting for the Chaplain, Captain and manditory Auxillary choice. Even if it was your intent to prove that the basic elements of the gladius wasn't unfair, you can't exactly prove it without them being there.

That and the moment you accused the Warp Storm of being broken (which most daemon players actively AVOID) just shows that you pretty much threw the match in all but name.

Are we going to use exceedingly low point matches as evidence something else is overpowered, and therefore something entirely unrelated is not overpowered?

With this logic, we might as well conclude Land Raiders are overpowered if you bring an unbound army of two of them at 500pts against an opponent lacking melta guns or other dedicated anti-tank.

Absurd.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
At 600 points you can't legally field a full Battle Company anyways. The marines alone runs you 700 points naked and that's not counting for the Chaplain, Captain and manditory Auxillary choice. Even if it was your intent to prove that the basic elements of the gladius wasn't unfair, you can't exactly prove it without them being there.

That and the moment you accused the Warp Storm of being broken (which most daemon players actively AVOID) just shows that you pretty much threw the match in all but name.

Does that mean that I'm absolutely out of my mind, bat-gak insane since I really enjoy using the Warpstorm chart?!

The lady doth protest too much.

Traditio wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
]It seems your complaint is basically "Well there is other stuff that's unfair so why complain about my thing?".

That's basically it. Given wraithknights, scatter bikes, the Tau, summon rules, Necron ducurion, and all of the other broken crap in 40k, why on earth complain about free rhinos?

I'd agree that free rhinos, drop pods or razorbacks would be unfair if wraithknights didn't exist, if riptides didn't exist, if summon rules didn't exist, etc.

But we're already playing an unfair game. Compared to wraithknights and scatter bikes, free rhinos seem pretty tame. Don't you think?

At least my rhinos don't come with 2+ rerollable invulns.

I suppose because the free rhinos, pods, and razorbacks are equally as unfair as many of the things you've listed? It certainly beat out the Tau and Necrons in the LVO.

There is no limit to the unfair stuff in this game. It's not like we can point at these things you've listed and said "Okay, 5-6 unfair things, that's it. Everything else is unfair!".
There is also the free points issue. Even in WMH, the #1 complaint, over Cryx and Legion, are the tier lists that give free points. People see that and get very heated, since the match up feels unfair when you total up the army.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Probably because SM plays on a competetive level? Why compare it to a dead codex?

So having "dead" codices and "alive' codices is good and not a reason to complain?
Yeah, a huge power gap between codex is such a very good situation! How much do you enjoy your CSM facing a GSF?

Traditio wrote:
I had (ignorantly) assaulted one of his groups of horrors, to which he had joined an icon with a 2+ REROLLABLE INVULN SAVE (I was unaware of this when I charged)

I get the idea that the problem is not the demons rules, or the gladius strike force, but you. You seem to be a very new player, not very aware of how the rules work, and therefore you do not win a lot. Hence why you are so annoyed at people complaining about the Gladius Strike Force.

My local group has also debated this a lot.

On one hand, yes there are worse things that can be done in this game than GSF. But that doesn't make it not powerful. The placement at the LVO doesn't provide a clear cut nail in the OP coffin some people think, but it should be considered when discussing its power as it is a strong indicator.

This isn't the first time the meta has had builds that were parking lots (shudders while thinking about 5th ed leaf blowers and razor spam), but an optimized GSF can do this, with obsec, on a whole new level.

What this formation was meant to do is to encourage you to field 3 of the comparatively sub par units in the codex. This isn't about comparing them externally, but internally. From a fluff standpoint, there should be more tactical marines on the table. From a business standpoint, they wanted people to buy these kits. For multiple editions taking tacticals, AM, and/or devs was bad. You took minimum tacs to fill your troops... sometimes. More commonly you would instead fill the troops with scouts to leave more room for good units, or use a force org change to take, say, bikes instead. AM and devs are still considered bad, even compared externally. The only thing that made these three units even register on the competitive radar outside this formation was the introduction of grav, and skyhammer.

I don't remember how many threads I have read over the years along the lines of "how to make tactical good" or "how would you fix tactical". Outside of comparing them with the worst gimp legged books in 40k right now, they really are lackluster. If two years ago you tossed around the idea of taking a list with 6x tacs, 2x AM, and 2x devs, you would have been laughed at... by CSM.

These units really did need something to make them worth taking. But this formations execution was too much. Obviously terms like "balanced" and "fair" are subjective, and in the current meta combined with power creep, the line gets drawn to suit the needs of the person making the argument. What I would say is in my opinion, even as a Marine player (well DA but close enough), I think it should be done differently. Perhaps only 10 man squads get a free transport, and/or only for the tacticals, or at least only the tacs/AM/Devs. Now instead of the MSU min max to get 14+ free transports, you only get 6-10, with less room for other toys because you needed all 10 bodies for them. I know no one complains about me taking lions blade when I only bring 6 free transports for the tacticals, sometimes rhinos for the devs (a combination of tank limit + not wanting to be that guy).

TLDR: yes compared to top shelf cheddar it isn't "unfair", but compared to the bottom scrapers, everything can seem OP. My opinion is it is a little too much, and I would cut back/restrict how many free transports and who could take them.

Traditio wrote:


But they'll complain about my free transports?

I would love to hear your suggestions on how my Dark Eldar can handle all these free transports. Dark Lance weaponry is single shot and expensive and the best places to get it (Ravagers) can easily be forced to jink. Scourges with Haywire Blasters are effective for exactly one razorback, then they are out in the open just waiting to be shredded by heavy bolter fire. Pain Engines can be used to force you to keep your distance until any Grav Cannon toting unit comes within range an obliterates them. Beast Pack is fast enough but will far from reliably glance down a razorback and they are likely to be out manoeuvred so the marines can place their shots into the damage dealing models due to vehicles not being locked in combat. He has more objsec than me which is almost as fast so i can't beat him out at the objectives

I'd love some advice, just in general, about what DE can do to handle the Gladius formation. The first person to suggest ally in Eldar gets a boot to the privates.

Experiment 626 wrote:
3. There is absolutely no way you couldn't have known that his Horror unit was running a re-rolled 2++. Either he cheated, or you didn't pay attention/ask about his abilities & wargear...

The latter.

2. The Warpstorm chart has 4 results that then require you rolling a '6' to actually hit an enemy unit. And 2 of those results use the small blast marker, which then scatters!
Yeah, that's some scary 'firepower' right there...

The only reason I bring it up is because you were talking about how summoners have to forego witch-fire spells. Demons get "free" shooting which doesn't require LOS every turn, potentially against every single enemy unit on the board.

You got trolled by a dude who brought a filthy list and by the sounds of it, also cheated! Quit trying to tar every single Daemon player as nothing more than a power gaming WaaC's donkeycave.

I don't know if he cheated or not. That said, he was a new player who wasn't completely clear on all of the rules.

It was a fun game regardless, and my opponent was a fantastic sport. I ultimately didn't write what I did to complain about demons or about the player against whom I was playing.

My only point is that demons don't have room to complain about free stuff. Dress it up however you want. I ended up playing 600 points vs. 1000-1100.

There's no denying this basic fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Traditio wrote:


But they'll complain about my free transports?

I would love to hear your suggestions on how my Dark Eldar can handle all these free transports. Dark Lance weaponry is single shot and expensive and the best places to get it (Ravagers) can easily be forced to jink. Scourges with Haywire Blasters are effective for exactly one razorback, then they are out in the open just waiting to be shredded by heavy bolter fire. Pain Engines can be used to force you to keep your distance until any Grav Cannon toting unit comes within range an obliterates them. Beast Pack is fast enough but will far from reliably glance down a razorback and they are likely to be out manoeuvred so the marines can place their shots into the damage dealing models due to vehicles not being locked in combat. He has more objsec than me which is almost as fast so i can't beat him out at the objectives

I'd love some advice, just in general, about what DE can do to handle the Gladius formation. The first person to suggest ally in Eldar gets a boot to the privates.

Spam kabalite warriors in raiders, voidraven bombers and razorwing jetfighters?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:


So having "dead" codices and "alive' codices is good and not a reason to complain?
Yeah, a huge power gap between codex is such a very good situation! How much do you enjoy your CSM facing a GSF?

Of course it's not good, but the problem is solved by giving love to dead codices, not killing top tier ones.

Well, toning down the worst offenders would be good, but with a proper update CSM could be at GSF level too.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Traditio wrote:


But they'll complain about my free transports?

I would love to hear your suggestions on how my Dark Eldar can handle all these free transports. Dark Lance weaponry is single shot and expensive and the best places to get it (Ravagers) can easily be forced to jink. Scourges with Haywire Blasters are effective for exactly one razorback, then they are out in the open just waiting to be shredded by heavy bolter fire. Pain Engines can be used to force you to keep your distance until any Grav Cannon toting unit comes within range an obliterates them. Beast Pack is fast enough but will far from reliably glance down a razorback and they are likely to be out manoeuvred so the marines can place their shots into the damage dealing models due to vehicles not being locked in combat. He has more objsec than me which is almost as fast so i can't beat him out at the objectives

I'd love some advice, just in general, about what DE can do to handle the Gladius formation. The first person to suggest ally in Eldar gets a boot to the privates.

Corsairs? xD

I guess you could L2P xD

In all seriousness, there really isn't a whole lot, aside contest with your Ob Sec but then you forgo the RSR and all those FA slots.

Know what's really funny?

I have never once, in thirteen years of the ability existing, heard someone complain that free scarab swarms for Necrons is unfair.

Traditio wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
3. There is absolutely no way you couldn't have known that his Horror unit was running a re-rolled 2++. Either he cheated, or you didn't pay attention/ask about his abilities & wargear...

The latter.

Then that's entirely on you. Anytime your opponent goes to use and ability/preform an action you're not familiar with, you should be asking what's going on.
Forgetting stuff is natural, but ultimately, it's not unfair. Gak happens. Only thing that can be done is to make a mental note and try to pay closer attention/remember for next time.

If you have to, make up small markers to denote major things, such as if a vehicle gets immobilised or stunned, or how many wounds a MC/character has remaining, etc...
When it comes to psykers & spells, place the actual spell card next a unit that's just been hit by a Blessing/Malediction, etc...

Traditio wrote:

2. The Warpstorm chart has 4 results that then require you rolling a '6' to actually hit an enemy unit. And 2 of those results use the small blast marker, which then scatters!
Yeah, that's some scary 'firepower' right there...

The only reason I bring it up is because you were talking about how summoners have to forego witch-fire spells. Demons get "free" shooting which doesn't require LOS every turn, potentially against every single enemy unit on the board.

Our supposedly "free" shooting is barely worth sneezing at. For every game I've had where it was amazaballs, I've gone equally as many games where I don't even land a single shooting result!
And even if/when it happens, it only hits units on a 6, and only the Slaanesh result is actually scary. On the other hand, those same God storms also happen to hit the Daemon players as well! (Nurgle *really* enjoys dancing across my Tzeentchians - at times his 'shooting' has killed more of my gribblies than actual enemies!)

No one ever complains about the actual shooting from the Warpstorm table... The only things that table does, is cause most Daemon players to groan inwardly, or else enrage opponents when a 'good' result is rolled up once in a blue moon.

Traditio wrote:

You got trolled by a dude who brought a filthy list and by the sounds of it, also cheated! Quit trying to tar every single Daemon player as nothing more than a power gaming WaaC's donkeycave.

I don't know if he cheated or not. That said, he was a new player who wasn't completely clear on all of the rules.

It was a fun game regardless, and my opponent was a fantastic sport. I ultimately didn't write what I did to complain about demons or about the player against whom I was playing.

My only point is that demons don't have room to complain about free stuff. Dress it up however you want. I ended up playing 600 points vs. 1000-1100.

There's no denying this basic fact.

Any game under 1000pts is going to end up heavily skewed in it's results, simply because the game itself doesn't really work at such a miniscule pts level. Such games are actually a lot better off played using rules such as the old school 'Combat Patrol', which places heavy limits on most things outside your basic Troops.
(ie: no vehicles w/total AV value greater than 32, no 2+ saves, no Ordinance, no Summoning, only 0-1 models with more than 3 wounds, etc...)

Besides, while annoying as all sin, Tzeentch Clown Car is readily countered, especially by Space Marines... Between Drop Pods w/Deathwind launchers (best upgrade ever!), Deep Strike, turbo boosting Bikers, Thunderfire cannons, Whirlwinds, etc... you have more than enough tools to Alpha Strike the Daemons before they can get going.
Concentrate exclusively on just the characters & Horrors who are devoted to summoning more units. They fold pretty easily since Tzheralds/Horrors are just T3/5++ (and of course, re-roll 1's)

On the other hand, there is absolutely no hard counter to the GSF, beyond having a codex that is capable of killing massed vehicle spam.

Basically, your advantage is 100% guaranteed during list creation. My advantage in Summoning only happens once the game has begun, and can potentially be countered before I even get a turn.
Mine also is a choice that results in forging other aspects of what my army can do, such as meaningful shooting or augmenting/hexing, etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Traditio wrote:


But they'll complain about my free transports?

I would love to hear your suggestions on how my Dark Eldar can handle all these free transports. Dark Lance weaponry is single shot and expensive and the best places to get it (Ravagers) can easily be forced to jink. Scourges with Haywire Blasters are effective for exactly one razorback, then they are out in the open just waiting to be shredded by heavy bolter fire. Pain Engines can be used to force you to keep your distance until any Grav Cannon toting unit comes within range an obliterates them. Beast Pack is fast enough but will far from reliably glance down a razorback and they are likely to be out manoeuvred so the marines can place their shots into the damage dealing models due to vehicles not being locked in combat. He has more objsec than me which is almost as fast so i can't beat him out at the objectives

I'd love some advice, just in general, about what DE can do to handle the Gladius formation. The first person to suggest ally in Eldar gets a boot to the privates.

Spam kabalite warriors in raiders, voidraven bombers and razorwing jetfighters?