Why the Gladius Strike Force Battle Company is Not Unfair

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**War Kitten**

We should keep in mind that this is the same person who thinks that a boltgun should be able to damage a titan, because "reasons".

**Blacksails**

War Kitten wrote:
We should keep in mind that this is the same person who thinks that a boltgun should be able to damage a titan, because "reasons".

Yeah, one of the more interesting proposals I've seen on this board in a long time. Lasguns killing Land Raiders and Knights. Balance.

**GoliothOnline**

Traditio wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
"To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game."

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait. You're serious. I'll laugh harder!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Crack open the Guard, Ork or CSM codices at some point in the future. You'll see how spoiled C:SM players really are.

I don't really have much sympathy for guard or the CSM. Both codices have the ability to spam high strength, low AP pie plates.

I will grant that the "base" CSM troop deserves a boost, though.

CSM have the ability to spam high Str low AP pie plates? Well that's news to me!! What dex are you bloody playing... Oh wait, its THAT dex, which shall not be named.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Experiment 626 wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
At 600 points you can't legally field a full Battle Company anyways. The marines alone runs you 700 points naked and that's not counting for the Chaplain, Captain and manditory Auxillary choice. Even if it was your intent to prove that the basic elements of the gladius wasn't unfair, you can't exactly prove it without them being there.

That and the moment you accused the Warp Storm of being broken (which most daemon players actively AVOID) just shows that you pretty much threw the match in all but name.

Does that mean that I'm absolutely out of my mind, bat-gak insane since I really enjoy using the Warpstorm chart?!

Short answer: yes. Long answer: Yeeeees

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Ashiraya wrote:
Of course it's not good, but the problem is solved by giving love to dead codices, not killing top tier ones.

Good news: none of this will happen. Future codices are going to jump around randomly in power level. Sometime a bad codex will become good. Sometime a good codex will become even better. Sometime a bad codex will become even worse.
In the current state of the game, some codices being way stronger than others is unfair. The GSF is part of what makes some codices way stronger than others. So it is part of the unfairness.

**krodarklorr**

HondaDaBest wrote:
While the free points of transports are pretty good, the Gladius Strike Force's true overwhelming power is in MSU OBSEC.

It is quite obnoxious to play against. They have 8 OBSEC transports, and once you kill those transports, they have 8 OBSEC units. Then you factor in Warlords, giving them outflank, etc, it just leads to them grabbing any objective they want.

500 free points of OBSEC transports is amazing~. At that point, it doesn't even matter if they are paper thin. MSU OBSEC spam is really, really damn good. And annoying as hell.

I was scrolling down, waiting for someone to bring up this point.

This is the true strength of Gladius, simply because you can outscore your opponent.

**master of ordinance**

I read the OP's post and laughed.
Then I read the rest of the thread and realised that he is deadly serious.

OP: Please put down your SM codex and open up the Imperial Guard one. Or the Tyranid one. Or the CSM one. Or the Ork one. Try and play these codex's, try and play the weaker ones without the fancy formations.
the SM Gladius takes some of the better troops choices in the game and gives them massive buffs in the form of free obsec transports. Sure, these units are some of the less useful ones within the codex but they are still far superior to most of the other codex's troops choices.

**niv-mizzet**

OP is partially correct. Emphasis on partially.

1850 of rank and file marines plus 500ish of transports is an extremely strong 1850 list, but a very mediocre 2350 list. I'd say most lists could fight it evenly with 2100 points in their army or so. Rank and file marines are kinda sucky and slightly overcosted, being generalists in a game where specialists are awesome, but not the worst. They could be non-functional like genestealers, or have a nigh-useless chapter tactic like BA.

When being piloted well in ITC format, which is very objective based, it is a straight up top tier list. Also timed events where games tend to go to 5 then run out of time works to the battleco's advantage.

So yeah, partially correct. Still on crack though.

**Experiment 626**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
At 600 points you can't legally field a full Battle Company anyways. The marines alone runs you 700 points naked and that's not counting for the Chaplain, Captain and manditory Auxillary choice. Even if it was your intent to prove that the basic elements of the gladius wasn't unfair, you can't exactly prove it without them being there.

That and the moment you accused the Warp Storm of being broken (which most daemon players actively AVOID) just shows that you pretty much threw the match in all but name.

Does that mean that I'm absolutely out of my mind, bat-gak insane since I really enjoy using the Warpstorm chart?!

Short answer: yes. Long answer: Yeeeees

Oh well... Tzeentch Wills It!

**Martel732**

master of ordinance wrote:
I read the OP's post and laughed.
Then I read the rest of the thread and realised that he is deadly serious.

OP: Please put down your SM codex and open up the Imperial Guard one. Or the Tyranid one. Or the CSM one. Or the Ork one. Try and play these codex's, try and play the weaker ones without the fancy formations.
the SM Gladius takes some of the better troops choices in the game and gives them massive buffs in the form of free obsec transports. Sure, these units are some of the less useful ones within the codex but they are still far superior to most of the other codex's troops choices.

They are not far superior. They are only good because of gladius.

**Frozocrone**

master of ordinance wrote:
I read the OP's post and laughed.
Then I read the rest of the thread and realised that he is deadly serious.

OP: Please put down your SM codex and open up the Imperial Guard one. Or the Tyranid one. Or the CSM one. Or the Ork one. Try and play these codex's, try and play the weaker ones without the fancy formations.
the SM Gladius takes some of the better troops choices in the game and gives them massive buffs in the form of free obsec transports. Sure, these units are some of the less useful ones within the codex but they are still far superior to most of the other codex's troops choices.

Tyranids can do well, but that's because Flyrants are a defibrillator for the army.

**jreilly89**

krodarklorr wrote:
HondaDaBest wrote:
While the free points of transports are pretty good, the Gladius Strike Force's true overwhelming power is in MSU OBSEC.

It is quite obnoxious to play against. They have 8 OBSEC transports, and once you kill those transports, they have 8 OBSEC units. Then you factor in Warlords, giving them outflank, etc, it just leads to them grabbing any objective they want.

500 free points of OBSEC transports is amazing~. At that point, it doesn't even matter if they are paper thin. MSU OBSEC spam is really, really damn good. And annoying as hell.

I was scrolling down, waiting for someone to bring up this point.

This is the true strength of Gladius, simply because you can outscore your opponent.

This. I argued it in another thread. The Gladius is really only threatening in Maelstrom and Objective games. I think in straight up killpoints, Tau or Eldar would wipe the floor with a Gladius. It's not about firepower, it's about flooding the board with bodies and scoring points.

**Traditio**

After further consideration, I think I may have to agree with the ork player earlier in the thread:

Somehow, paying 3 ppm for a marine seems terribly wrong. That said, I don't think this is a problem with the gladius strike force as such; the problem is that you can take a razorback for a minimum 5 man squad. If the 5 man squad takes a rhino or a drop pod, the point cost per model for a marine jumps to 7 points per model.

There's an easy remedy for this, if the rule were instead to read:

"Any unit in the battle company may elect to take a rhino or drop pod for free (any upgrades must be purchased normally). Any squad of 10 models may instead elect to take a razorback for free (any upgrades must be purchased normally), or else, may take up to an additional 20 points of free upgrades on the squad's rhino or drop pod. Any squad of less than 10 models may elect to pay 20 points and take a razorback instead of a rhino or drop pod,"

I don't think that there would be any room for complaint.

**Martel732**

The problem is that 3 ppm for a marine is reasonable against Tau/Eldar, given how quickly those lists kill everything. Against Orks, no not reasonable at all.

**Traditio**

Martel732 wrote:
The problem is that 3 ppm for a marine is reasonable against Tau/Eldar, given how quickly those lists kill everything. Against Orks, no not reasonable at all.

The solution to this is to nerf the ever living feth out of tau and eldar, not to make space marines 3 ppm.

**Ether**

I'm surprised we don't see more iron hands/clan raukaan spam. What's better than free transports? Free transports with 4+ IWND! Fun things to do include shoe-horning in extra transports with command squads.

**Xenomancers**

jreilly89 wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
HondaDaBest wrote:
While the free points of transports are pretty good, the Gladius Strike Force's true overwhelming power is in MSU OBSEC.

It is quite obnoxious to play against. They have 8 OBSEC transports, and once you kill those transports, they have 8 OBSEC units. Then you factor in Warlords, giving them outflank, etc, it just leads to them grabbing any objective they want.

500 free points of OBSEC transports is amazing~. At that point, it doesn't even matter if they are paper thin. MSU OBSEC spam is really, really damn good. And annoying as hell.

I was scrolling down, waiting for someone to bring up this point.

This is the true strength of Gladius, simply because you can outscore your opponent.

This. I argued it in another thread. The Gladius is really only threatening in Maelstrom and Objective games. I think in straight up killpoints, Tau or Eldar would wipe the floor with a Gladius. It's not about firepower, it's about flooding the board with bodies and scoring points.

Absolutely - take your 12 razor battle company and just play a old school cleanse mission and the gladius would be lucky to make half i'ts points back. This is because the tactical marine is a crap unit. Absolute crap.

**CrownAxe**

Ether wrote:
I'm surprised we don't see more iron hands/clan raukaan spam. What's better than free transports? Free transports with 4+ IWND! Fun things to do include shoe-horning in extra transports with command squads.

IWND only matter if the transport survives to your next turn

**Xenomancers**

master of ordinance wrote:
I read the OP's post and laughed.
Then I read the rest of the thread and realised that he is deadly serious.

OP: Please put down your SM codex and open up the Imperial Guard one. Or the Tyranid one. Or the CSM one. Or the Ork one. Try and play these codex's, try and play the weaker ones without the fancy formations.
the SM Gladius takes some of the better troops choices in the game and gives them massive buffs in the form of free obsec transports. Sure, these units are some of the less useful ones within the codex but they are still far superior to most of the other codex's troops choices.

With all due respect - the space marine isn't a top troop choice. It's actually one of the worst (probably the worst). I'd take an IG vet squad or infantry platoon over a space marine tactical any day. Now - if this formation was 12 vet squads with free chimeras - that would be broken (granted it would cost a little bit more in the end - it would absolutely pwn gladius.)

**overlordweasel**

So by OPs logic in that an armies ability to table an opponent in 1-2 turns is the only definition an army can be considered op, then that means the necron decurion is perefectly fair. After all, it ONLY is impossible to kill reliably and doesnt kick out nearly as much firepower as tau/eldar. So OBVIOUSLY the decurion must be fair and balanced, if not a subpar army.

Seriously though, this is obviiusly a troll thread as this guy is either straight out ignoring people who prove him wrong or throwing out complete gak as a supporting arguement. He only made this thread for 2 reasons: 1. To vent that hes tired of people in his meta unhappy to face his super special fluffy formation bc he thinks theyre dumb and meanies 2. He isnt looking for a disscussion or debate the fact its a VERY competetive build thats leagues above most armies, he came here to be validated in his crackpot conclusion; emporer be damned the proof otherwise.

Can a mod lock this thread? Its not going anywhere positive and its only a matter of time before it devolves into a flame war once all the hilarity of OPs condition wears off...

**DarkLink**

Far be it from worst unit, Tac Marines are solidly in the mediocre to decent range, depending on if you get a grav cannons. There are a plethora of troops that are objectively far worse.

**Traditio**

DarkLink wrote:
Far be it from worst unit, Tac Marines are solidly in the mediocre to decent range, depending on if you get a grav cannons. There are a plethora of troops that are objectively far worse.

With comparable point costs?

**Blacksails**

DarkLink wrote:
Far be it from worst unit, Tac Marines are solidly in the mediocre to decent range, depending on if you get a grav cannons. There are a plethora of troops that are objectively far worse.

Thank you, I was worried this was going to turn into a marine circle jerk about how awful tacs are.

While they won't single-handedly win you the game, they're a reasonably priced, modular scoring unit with good weapon selections that ignores morale and comes with very nice boosts and support choices.

Yeah, a 5-man tac squad isn't taking a riptide down alone, but at ~85pts with specials, why should it?

Clearly the performance of the Gladius shows that Tacs aren't some burdensome tax unit that drags the army down.

**pm713**

Scions and CSM?

**Azreal13**

Traditio wrote:
DarkLink wrote:
Far be it from worst unit, Tac Marines are solidly in the mediocre to decent range, depending on if you get a grav cannons. There are a plethora of troops that are objectively far worse.

With comparable point costs?

Points costs have no place in the equation. A unit could cost half the points of a Tac Squad and still be objectively worse.

**Experiment 626**

pm713 wrote:
Scions and CSM?

Khorne Berserkers are even worse...

**DarkLink**

Traditio wrote:
DarkLink wrote:
Far be it from worst unit, Tac Marines are solidly in the mediocre to decent range, depending on if you get a grav cannons. There are a plethora of troops that are objectively far worse.

With comparable point costs?

Especially with comparable point costs. Tactical marines are points efficient scoring units that are fairly durable for their points and mobile with their access to transports. They lack real killing power, with the main exception of grav cannons, but aren't worthless in this regard. They might not be great due to the lack of firepower, but if you think they're bad you should try playing, I dunno, CSM or something. It'll open your eyes real quick.

**HoundsofDemos**

Tactical Marines biggest problem is that bolters suck with how big and apocolypse like the standard game has gotten. As far as basic weapons go it's one of the worst.

**koooaei**

Traditio wrote:
I've seen various discussions in which people have been belly-aching about the fact that space marine players can bring "free" vehicles and, in effect, effect a points disadvantage for their opponent. Whereas the opponent is playing an 1850 points list, a space marine player actually can have roughly 500 points more than that.

I wish to note the following:

First, this isn't really all that new. In the previous codex, assault marines (85 points for a 5 man squad) could choose to forgo their jump packs and take a free drop pod or rhino instead (a total "free" 20 points). Let's do the math. In an 1850, I could have chosen to go unbound and have taken 21 squads of assault marines with 21 FREE rhinos. That means that my opponent would be playing an 1850 point list, whereas the space marine player would actually have roughly a 2300 points list.

This was before the current space marine codex, and it's not even new. It was like that in 5th.

But funny thing is...

I don't recall "assault squad in rhino spam" being a huge thing before the current codex. Funny...why do you suppose that is?

Oh yeah....

Assault squads suck. Rhinos suck. And even if assault squads could have taken razorbacks, nobody would have bothered: razorbacks suck. Their armor is paper thin.

People want to complain about a "points disadvantage" if their space marines opponent takes a battle company. My answer to this?

We must disinguish between de jure and de facto points disadvantages. If the codex explicitly says "you can take 15 extra free points,that's a de jure points advantage. If, on the other hand, the codex says "a wraithknight costs x points," but, in point of fact, it's commonly admitted that a wraithknight SHOULD cost 100 points more? That's a de facto points disadvantage. For every wraithknight you take and I don't, I'm at a 100 point disadvantage.

It goes the other way around: for every overcosted model I take and you don't, I'm at a de facto points disadvantage for every overcosted model I take. If it's agreed that a given model costs, say, 20 points, but only should cost 15, then I'm at a de facto 5 point disadvantage for every model I take.

The gladius strike force battle company is completely fair because this is the situation that "fluffy" space marines list find themselves in already. To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game.

You say that we get free points and that you are at a points disadvantage?

I say that, in point of fact, we were already at a de facto points disadvantage and this actually balances things out.

Fact is, you don't like the gladius strike force because you were used to tabling your "fluffy" space marine opponents, because you were happy about the fact that your space marine opponents who took assault squads, devastator squads and lots of tactical squads stood essentially no chance of beating you.

Well I'm sorry: But I don't feel your pain.

Because fact is, whereas you are complaining about the "unfair" bonuses that space marine battle companies get, Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Demons, Demonkin, etc. are still a thing.

But don't worry: no matter how many "free" razorbacks or rhinos I take, that wraithknight and those scatterbikes are still going to shoot me off the table. So you can rest easy.

Have you played against it with something like harlequins?

**Xenomancers**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Tactical Marines biggest problem is that bolters suck with how big and apocolypse like the standard game has gotten. As far as basic weapons go it's one of the worst.

bolters sucking is a huge reason why tacs suck.