Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

When you're paying less than 100pts for all that survivability, a special and a combi + Razorback heavy weapon is quite good dakka for the points.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I doubt anything said here is going to shift you from your opinion, but I will post a reply for the lurkers who read these forums.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
From my experience, +1 bs

You should look at the mathhammer. The answer is you get roughly a 25% increase in DPS (damage per shot) with BS 5 vs 4.
How much of an increase does the razorback give you in a 5 man squad? It depends on the weapon and the target you are shooting at.
The other consideration is that the RB gives ablative armor, and another objective secured model.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I have never had a Tactical squad kill more points than they are worth.

That is not their job. Their job is to win the game through points, not to kill models.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Lets say we maximize the potential of the Tactical Squad in a GSF. Each squad is 10 men strong and there is a Grav gun, Grav cannon and combi grav. That's 130 extra points per squad. You will pay 1200 points just for Optimized Tacticals in a GSF. That's a huge investment.

That's a horrible way to 'maximize' the squads. You should be running 5 man squads with 1 grav gun to maximize the number of free razorbacks you get.

First, in my meta, if it doesn't have AV12+ its toast.

Second, in my meta, there is a point where we stopped playing Maelstrom and started playing Stronghold assault. I always defend against mech Tau.

Third, this is why I hate playing Marines. Its all a bunch of min/maxing bullgak with the GSF that I never run the damn thing. I play almost mono-plasma on my 10 man squads because I need to murder Crisis suits and Riptides, but don't want to spam Grav like some of you people seem to love doing

Bharring wrote:
When you're paying less than 100pts for all that survivability, a special and a combi + Razorback heavy weapon is quite good dakka for the points.

Standard razorback weapons are terrible, so you'll have to go above 100. I wouldn't brag too much about av11 suvivability, either.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Tac marines are pretty damn good for the miniscule price you pay. They can kick ass to any other troop in the game point-to-point. And they have no ld problems.

And what's better, free + 1 bs or a freaking razorback.

From my experience, +1 bs

Mass tactical armies can easilly win games due to many factors.

They can also lose easily due to many factors, you know, like Scatbikes, Fire Warriors, etc.

Yep, they're not overly killy but they do the job.

What job? I have never had a Tactical squad kill more points than they are worth. They suck at capping objectives and they can't out shoot a whole lot.

Other troops need so much investment to even do something on the table. There are a few exceptions ofc. Ork boyz can be effective from time to time. Conscripts are the best tarpit in the game.

Lets say we maximize the potential of the Tactical Squad in a GSF. Each squad is 10 men strong and there is a Grav gun, Grav cannon and combi grav. That's 130 extra points per squad. You will pay 1200 points just for Optimized Tacticals in a GSF. That's a huge investment.

But marines are rock solid for just 14 pts for what they get.

I would say paper thin when they don't even have a solid role. And for 14 points you get ATSKNF which will keep them on the table after they lose huge swathes of their squad.

Why don't you try other armie's options before complaining about tacticals and "bad" rhinos?

I have and Rhinos and Tacticals are still bad.

Wana play it out in vassal to prove your point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
When you're paying less than 100pts for all that survivability, a special and a combi + Razorback heavy weapon is quite good dakka for the points.

Standard razorback weapons are terrible, so you'll have to go above 100. I wouldn't brag too much about av11 suvivability, either.

For 70 points - sure. For 15 - not so much.

Something I like to point out a lot.

In gladius you get a 5 man tac with an assualt weapon and a decent weapon for 105-110 points.

Outside of gladius you can get a 5 man scout squad with LSS with 2 heavy weapons and a combi for the same price. Same number of objective secured models with more firepower/ that is also more moble and comes stock with infiltrate and scout. It's not quite as resilient but it's not terribly worse at the same price. The scouts allow you to use a CAD though - which gives you access to good hq's and cents and fast attack drop pods. So it's not really about the objective secured modles...it's really just about people getting stuff for "free" when in fact - marines and razors aren't worth their dang points anyways. In terms of what you actually get - gladius is a good formation on the same level as many other formations. IMO it doesn't even come close to decurion.

Martel732 wrote:
No, not really. They can't really put the hurt on anything. If you buy expensive upgrades, they can do a little. They pay for WS, S, grenades, and I that are all crap in 7th ed.

What can bolters and grav guns hurt? Quite a bit, actually. If you break down the damage-per-point of the 5 man squad with a grav gun, it's actually pretty decent -- especially with the free TL HB in the RB.

Where people screw up is they start blinging out their TAC squads. Keep em small, keep em cheap.

The power more comes from making everything in the Battle Company ObSec.

That Dread you just dropped in that pod? Obsec. It's pod? Obsec as well. That Command Squad with a pair of meltaguns? Obsec.

The Chaplain hiding in the corner, sitting on the objective that was deployed on the opposite side of the action? Obsec.

Decide to not take the Khan, and instead a kitted out Captain? Guess who's obsec? He is! And his buddies, Grav Bikers too! (If you somehow have the points for that!)

(But really, I'd argue that the Ultramarines 'Chapter Tactic' is really to be able to take CAD without losing the reroll. Scouts and Cents and Pods and/or a Cent Death Star with Smashface and a Librarian Conclave, and you can afford some T-fires to back them up without having to take our awful tanks!)

Bharring wrote:
DAs are better vs most MCs than naked Tacs, sure. But 5 Tacs with Plasma or Grav do about as much damage to MCs/heavy (and any other heavy target) as 7 DAs, while retaining about equal anti-infantry damage, and wildly outclassing them at hurting AVs. While being much, much more survivable vs small arms, and comparatively amazing at CC.

DAs are more mobile, and still win a little at protracted MC hunting.

It kinda balances out. DAs certainly don't blow Tacs out of the water.

So, at this point, we're seeing:

Better than Tacs:
CWE Bikes
Necron Warriors
Fire Warriors
SM Bikes?

Comparable to Tacs/Debatable:
CSMs
Dire Avengers
Guardsmen?
Scouts?
SOB?

Worse than Tacs:
Wyches
Kalabites
Blood letters
Daemonettes
Pink Horrors
Plague Bearers
Kroot
PAGK
Storm Guardians
Guardian Defenders
Rangers
Tyranid Warriors
Genestealers

How is that list looking so far?

CSM have to be moved to the "worse than" category - they are strictly worse than loyalists, and then you can add gaunts (both types) and Ripper Swarms to that list

 Battlesong wrote:

CSM have to be moved to the "worse than" category - they are strictly worse than loyalists, and then you can add gaunts (both types) and Ripper Swarms to that list

I concur.

Without Gladius, I'd tentatively push BSS up to the bottom of the 'better than' list as well.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:

CSM have to be moved to the "worse than" category - they are strictly worse than loyalists, and then you can add gaunts (both types) and Ripper Swarms to that list

I concur.

Without Gladius, I'd tentatively push BSS up to the bottom of the 'better than' list as well.

But sisters can't get grav yet... nor do they have a good alpha strike ability.

I would see CSM as worse, but it seemed like a lot of people disagreed.

I'm surprised Gaunts aren't about equal to Marines. Not that they kill much. Or survive long. But they sure can mess up the opponents plans! I believe you, I've just seen them do great cheap interference.

I've never actually seen SOB on the table, though...

-_------

As for setup, IIRC, 95pts gets you a PG, Combi, and 3 ablative wounds. All at t4 3+. Hidden inside an AV11/11/10 transport with a TL HB. It'd be what, 115 pts for the same with Las or Las/Plas?

For about double that, you can get a 6man DA (Worse shooting against most targets, and half the durability) in a Falcon with BL/PL.

Which kills more?

We can debate all day about the Plas squad vs the DAs (who wins varies by target), but now there are *two* plas squads.

The Falcon has 3 S8 AP2 shots, one of which has Lance. Two at 48, one at 36. And 2 S4 fake-rending shots at 12"

The Razorbacks have 2 S9AP2 shots at 48", 2 S7 AP2 shots at 24", and another 2 at 12".

The Razorbacks have better shooting.

So for 200pts you have:
2xLC
4xPG
2xCombi-PG
3xBoltgun

That is enough dakka to be afraid of.

Bharring wrote:
I would see CSM as worse, but it seemed like a lot of people disagreed.

I'm surprised Gaunts aren't about equal to Marines. Not that they kill much. Or survive long. But they sure can mess up the opponents plans! I believe you, I've just seen them do great cheap interference.

I've never actually seen SOB on the table, though...

-_------

As for setup, IIRC, 95pts gets you a PG, Combi, and 3 ablative wounds. All at t4 3+. Hidden inside an AV11/11/10 transport with a TL HB. It'd be what, 115 pts for the same with Las or Las/Plas?

For about double that, you can get a 6man DA (Worse shooting against most targets, and half the durability) in a Falcon with BL/PL.

Which kills more?

We can debate all day about the Plas squad vs the DAs (who wins varies by target), but now there are *two* plas squads.

The Falcon has 3 S8 AP2 shots, one of which has Lance. Two at 48, one at 36. And 2 S4 fake-rending shots at 12"

The Razorbacks have 2 S9AP2 shots at 48", 2 S7 AP2 shots at 24", and another 2 at 12".

The Razorbacks have better shooting.

So for 200pts you have:
2xLC
4xPG
2xCombi-PG
3xBoltgun

That is enough dakka to be afraid of.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha AV11 HP3 is a joke on a non-skimmer transport. That Razorback won't have a chance.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:

CSM have to be moved to the "worse than" category - they are strictly worse than loyalists, and then you can add gaunts (both types) and Ripper Swarms to that list

I concur.

Without Gladius, I'd tentatively push BSS up to the bottom of the 'better than' list as well.

But sisters can't get grav yet... nor do they have a good alpha strike ability.

Alpha is not the job of a Troops choice in the first place.

One, maybe.

Two? Not so much.

I was only comparing the firepower, showing that what you get actually can do damage.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:

CSM have to be moved to the "worse than" category - they are strictly worse than loyalists, and then you can add gaunts (both types) and Ripper Swarms to that list

I concur.

Without Gladius, I'd tentatively push BSS up to the bottom of the 'better than' list as well.

But sisters can't get grav yet... nor do they have a good alpha strike ability.

Alpha is not the job of a Troops choice in the first place.

But it can be done


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
One, maybe.

Two? Not so much.

I was only comparing the firepower, showing that what you get actually can do damage.

What is the Front AV of a Falcon?

12.

There is exactly one CWE model with AV13, and its 2500pts

You're not missing anything. AV sucks now.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

But it can be done

That's irrelevant. Necron Warriors have less alpha strike ability than Battle Sisters do and a worse base save. Without formation and synergy benefits (which we're discounting for the purposes of this, or I'd be pointing Dominions), Necron Warriors basically have a 5+ save against the vast majority of weapons in the game. That's only one better than the Sisters, and there's still quite a bit more AP4 in the game than there is AP3 even now.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

But it can be done

That's irrelevant. Necron Warriors have less alpha strike ability than Battle Sisters do and a worse base save. Without formation and synergy benefits (which we're discounting for the purposes of this, or I'd be pointing Dominions), Necron Warriors basically have a 5+ save against the vast majority of weapons in the game. That's only one better than the Sisters, and there's still quite a bit more AP4 in the game than there is AP3 even now.

No, it isn't irrelevant. Tactical Marines can alpha strike and Sisters can't. Tacticals have Grav and Plasma, Sisters don't. Tacticals are extremely versatile at the cost of someone always being better at anything the Tacticals can do.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
First, in my meta, if it doesn't have AV12+ its toast.

Second, in my meta, there is a point where we stopped playing Maelstrom and started playing Stronghold assault. I always defend against mech Tau.

To clarify, you play in a specific meta with specific ways of running games that differs from the ITC and most tournaments.
Does it not seem to you that you might be arguing that oranges are orange when the rest of us are saying apples are red?
You might be completely correct in your local meta, but that does not define the national or global community.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Third, this is why I hate playing Marines. Its all a bunch of min/maxing bullgak with the GSF that I never run the damn thing. I play almost mono-plasma on my 10 man squads because I need to murder Crisis suits and Riptides, but don't want to spam Grav like some of you people seem to love doing

Again, I want to make sure I understand this. Are you saying you don't like to Min/Max units and just like to run what you think is cool?

Don't get me wrong. I'm all about playing what's cool in casual games. Tonight I'm bringing the Eldar Avatar to my league because the model turned out great when I painted it. When talking about casual/fun games though, I don't think balance is as much of a factor.

Bharring wrote:
DAs are better vs most MCs than naked Tacs, sure. But 5 Tacs with Plasma or Grav do about as much damage to MCs/heavy (and any other heavy target) as 7 DAs, while retaining about equal anti-infantry damage, and wildly outclassing them at hurting AVs. While being much, much more survivable vs small arms, and comparatively amazing at CC.

DAs are more mobile, and still win a little at protracted MC hunting.

It kinda balances out. DAs certainly don't blow Tacs out of the water.

So, at this point, we're seeing:

Better than Tacs:
CWE Bikes
Necron Warriors
Fire Warriors
SM Bikes?

Comparable to Tacs/Debatable:
CSMs
Dire Avengers
Guardsmen?
Scouts?
SOB?

Worse than Tacs:
Wyches
Kalabites
Blood letters
Daemonettes
Pink Horrors
Plague Bearers
Kroot
PAGK
Storm Guardians
Guardian Defenders
Rangers
Tyranid Warriors
Genestealers

How is that list looking so far?

Don't forget Harlequin Troupes.

 Battlesong wrote:
CSM have to be moved to the "worse than" category - they are strictly worse than loyalists, and then you can add gaunts (both types) and Ripper Swarms to that list

+1 to this.
For one point more, loyalists get ATSKNF and chapter buffs. To get marks CSM must pay points .

I didn't forget Harlies, I just didn't know where to put them.

Loyalists to get a lot of nice toys. Mine rarely envy CSM-squad toys. Although Autocannons would be fun...

Bharring wrote:
I didn't forget Harlies, I just didn't know where to put them.

Loyalists to get a lot of nice toys. Mine rarely envy CSM-squad toys. Although Autocannons would be fun...

Only because Loyalists can take a Heavy weapon at just 5 grunts.

Chaos Marines are forced to still take a 10 man squad before we can access heavy weapons, because... "screw Chaos!"

I play 40k because of the fluff. I love marines & have for about 25 years now. GSF ruins the whole game for me. Trading 2 or 3 five man tac squads, or a RB each turn for a few VPs each turn sux. Its the most unfluffy, humiliating way to play 40k ive ever experienced. Removing SMs like gaurdsmen? Fracking horrible.

And why? All so Tau, Necron & Eldar players can feel like gods. They remove PILES of marines, but I still win. That way we both feel like we won. Ive got a dozen models from 4 squads left, and his army is intact. But I. won. Its so ridiculously against the fluff it hurts, but it makes both GW customers feel like they won.

I only whip it out when ive been on a losing streak with my BAs. Max grav, msu. Suck it GMC spamming WAACs.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I didn't forget Harlies, I just didn't know where to put them.

Loyalists to get a lot of nice toys. Mine rarely envy CSM-squad toys. Although Autocannons would be fun...

Only because Loyalists can take a Heavy weapon at just 5 grunts.

Chaos Marines are forced to still take a 10 man squad before we can access heavy weapons, because... "screw Chaos!"

And Chaos aren't even allowed to Combat Squad either.

You envy our autocannons? I envy your entire damn codex mate. Gimme.

Before the GSF, Tacs had the best armor in the game....Irrelevance!

3+ armor is not what it used to be.

Back in Fifth it was pretty good because there was no grav, massed strength six wasn't as prevalent and the main special weapon most MEQ/Imperial armies took was Melta which was short range and low rof.

These days between massed strength 6 shooting making me roll enough dice to over whelm my armor, grav spam and strength D a 3 plus is kinda meh.

The 3+ is more relevant in an era of spammed 6+ than before.

With the S6 spam, SM always get a 3+. So it retains 100% of its value.

2/3rds of all wounds are ignored. Compared to other specialists, typically they only ignore 1/2 or 1/3 of wounds. So this S6 spam hoses them at least twice as hard.

The model spam armies (Guard, Orks, Gaunts) do a little better vs S6 spam, but perform even better relative to Tacs at soaking the lower S lower AP that used to be used to kill Tacs. So Guardsmen may do better vs S6 spam, but by a lower margin than they otherwise would.

The non-Horde armies all do disastrously worse vs S6 spam. Footdar. Kalabites. Wyches. Scouts. They take much heavier losses (half again or double), while not costing as much less as Marines.

So sure, S6 spam might be so OP that it shoots Tac squads off the table. But it does so much worse to the non-Marines armies. If you'd loose 100pts, they would often lose 150 or more.

So Marines are the best off when it comes to transitioning from a mix of low/med S low AP weapon spam to mid S high AP weapon spam. It's just so OP it doesn't feel like it.

Sisters of Battle pay 150 for a troop choice with two meltas and one combi-melta, in a transport with a twin-linked multimelta. They're BS 4 and have Preferred Enemy 1 or 2/game.

They're very, very respectable.