What would it take to make Land Raiders viable.

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**Xenomancers**

I'll get right to the point - I love land raiders. I want to use them in lists. It's a great model and it has the potential to serve a great purpose. However as they stand right now - they are probably the worst unit in the game. Costing a quarter short of a Wraith-knight - it can't be considered half as valuable. Something needs to be done...

Personally - I think they should be given super heavy status and a points increase. Keep the rules they have now with some new ones and an additional hull point.

I'm thinking 325 points
Same weapon options and transport capacity but now a super heavy tank with 5 HP. 14/14/14.

**TheCrusadeSmurf**

Superheavy, but LR's current price give or take is enough. It's overcosted af at the moment.

**Xenomancers**

TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Superheavy, but LR's current price give or take is enough. It's overcosted af at the moment.

So you think current price but a super heavy could do it? Yeah...I would consider taking it at that cost.

**btgrimaldus**

its an AV 14 all round with good troop capacity and good weapons, it serves it's purpose.

**Xenomancers**

btgrimaldus wrote:
its an AV 14 all round with good troop capacity and good weapons, it serves it's purpose.

In all fairness - how can it serve it's purpose when it's dead from a suicide drop pod melta squad on turn 1? Then you have stranded assault units that probably have no mobility. Everytime I take it this happens...I am not kidding.

**ionusx**

relic plates thats would help immune to melta then

**Martel732**

It's not just melta. Melta is supposed to take down things like Land Raiders. The real problem is that even if it works out as a transport, you just made your assault unit cost 250 pts extra. The thing just doesn't do enough.

**Slayer-Fan123**

They're too easy to pop is the issue.
You either need to drop all of them to 200 a piece or give them the option to buy Armoured Ceramite.

**War Kitten**

Armored Ceramite might help. Also letting them move and fire all their weapons at full BS might help (as it stands they can fire one at full BS if they move). I mean, these things are essentially mobile fortresses, they should be REALLY hard to take down

**Martel732**

If you give them ceramite, that just makes haywire and D weapons even more special than they already are. Melta is already a poor choice against many foes, due to the god-like properties of MCs.

The first thing you need to do is make them immune to difficult terrain tests. As long as the immobilize on a 1, I'll never use them.

**Kimchi Gamer**

Taking Grav weaponry out of the game?

**MechaEmperor7000**

The problem with the LR is that it's survivable. And that's it. It's not killy and it doesn't transport much so most people can comfortably ignore it.

Maybe if it had fire points, then it could function as a mobile bunker of sorts, but that would run into a fluff issue of it's armor, which is stated to be so proof that it has no fire points. All useful versions of it either have massive amounts of dakka (most of the forge world mobile artillery versions) or if it could transport a lot of troops (like the Crusader or the Spartan).

**Martel732**

Kimchi Gamer wrote:
Taking Grav weaponry out of the game?

Grav is but another issue.

**ionusx**

maybe change potms to grant the vehicle the ability to fire twice in a shooting phase? really not to many vehicles have POTMS outside of land raiders. can anyone really name many non forgeworld vehicles with potms

**Martel732**

Stormravens.

**Grimmor**

Kimchi Gamer wrote:
Taking Grav weaponry out of the game?

Only a partial issue. Really a Land Raider is just way to expensive for what it does. Yes its 14 all around, but its really just a super heavy assault rhino, so who cares?

Drop it to 200 and give it immunity to Dangerous Terrain. After that its rocking some Lascannons so it at least can do stuff after it drops its murder squad.

**Spineyguy**

If you ask me, the whole Space Marine vehicle pool needs an overhaul.

Giving everything Power of the Machine Spirit would be a good start, and perhaps letting the Machine Spirit attempt a Rhino-style repair instead of firing a weapon would be an idea. Whirlwinds can have better armour and be basically turned into Thunderfire Cannon-style multiple barrage units with fun types of missile, and we can probably afford to lose the Hunter and/or the Stalker.

But regarding the Land Raider specifically, a base Transport Capacity of 12 and a 50pt price drop would fix it, and perhaps the option to take things like Frag Assault Launchers for all variants. Ideally, though, you don't want to overlap with the unit as it appears in 30k. The modern Raider needs to be very limited in comparison, to reflect the fluff.

**Saber**

The Land Raider not a bad unit, as the stuff it does is useful, it's just an inefficient unit, because it costs too much for the return you get. Drop it down to 200 points and give it a rule that allows it to still move 6" a turn even if it is Stunned or Immobilized. It still wouldn't be all that great at shooting for the points, but the armor and Assault Vehicle rule are decent enough reasons to take it.'

On the side issue of the other Marine tanks, I think the support and transport vehicles are fine. Predators and Vindicators should have Armor 12 on the side, and I like the idea of giving them POTMS. They could stand to be better at moving and shooting.

**Chapter Master Angelos**

The thing is like the individual Marines themselves the Land Raider doesn't live up to its fluff.

Everywhere it's Portrated as the Space Marines Main Battle Tank, which also has the ability to carry men.

In the game the role of MBT is passed off to the Predator.. which flounders about at this role, leaving the Land Raider basically an Expensive Up Armored double wide Assault-Razorback on the table.

You're paying for survivability pure and simple, but in a world of 1shot able tanks that is not always a sound investment. I mean based on upgrade costs. The lascannons for the basics 240 only cost 80 of it. The Heavy bolter comes free.. so you're paying 160 for an armor 14 box if you wanna break it down.

Wanna make the land raider worth it? Give it the Super heavy "stability" rule "never counts as moved" and deduct the cost of the weapons from it and you end up with:

A Main Battle Tank that can carry dudes.

**Vankraken**

The Land Raider is overpriced as all gak. Maybe a few editions ago it was worth its cost but honestly the premium its paying to be an AV14 all around transport vehicle with decent weapons is far too much when there are far better transports that cost half the price. The land raider is a unit that is less than the sum of its parts and as such struggles to ever be cost effective.

**Martel732**

Saber wrote:
The Land Raider not a bad unit, as the stuff it does is useful, it's just an inefficient unit, because it costs too much for the return you get. Drop it down to 200 points and give it a rule that allows it to still move 6" a turn even if it is Stunned or Immobilized. It still wouldn't be all that great at shooting for the points, but the armor and Assault Vehicle rule are decent enough reasons to take it.'

On the side issue of the other Marine tanks, I think the support and transport vehicles are fine. Predators and Vindicators should have Armor 12 on the side, and I like the idea of giving them POTMS. They could stand to be better at moving and shooting.

If it's overcosted, it's bad.

**emptyhat**

What about "All penetrating hits are counted as glancing".

**Grimmor**

emptyhat wrote:
What about "All penetrating hits are counted as glancing".

Thats going way to far.

Up its transport capacity to 12, make it ignore dangerous terrain, and make it cost 200 points. There, done.

**Co'tor Shas**

Grimmor wrote:
emptyhat wrote:
What about "All penetrating hits are counted as glancing".

Thats going way to far.

Up its transport capacity to 12, make it ignore dangerous terrain, and make it cost 200 points. There, done.

Yep, if it doesn't do enough for the cost, simply decrease the cost.

**Future War Cultist**

For Land Raiders, I would back a point reduction down to 200pts.

Also, I think Rhinos should be tougher. The fluff always goes on about how resilient they are, and that they're all special to the Chapter with long service records, but on the board they are the among the cheapest and most disposable transports in the game. Personally, I would give all Rhino variant vehicles the same armor value as Predators. Except for the Vindicator, which would get side armor 12 or 13. Now, they would only be tough enough to head straight for the enemy head on, as marines should.

**Co'tor Shas**

Ehh, I'm less sure Rhinos need a buff, they seem good the way they are. A buff with a relevant point increase perhaps.

**TheCrusadeSmurf**

Rhinos already have Repair.

I find the best way to make any transport LR more survivable is a Techmarine w/ Conversion Beamer w/ 2x Servitors.

Lumbering behemoth and maybe the Venerable rules.

**TheCustomLime**

An inherent dozer blade rule.

"Armored bulk: The crushing weight of the Land Raider pulverizes any obstacle that would impede a lesser armored vehicle. The Land Raider may reroll any failed dangerous terrain checks".

I'd also buff the weaponry somehow. Maybe allow the Land Raider to fire twice with one weapon if it forgoes all movement?

**Nevelon**

The more I look at it, the more that just making them a superheavy seems the best answer. SHs come with move through cover as part of the package, so no more getting hung up on the shrubbery. Shooting all guns as stationary at whatever solves the problem of being both a taxi and a tank. Ignoring most of the damage results makes the LR the unstoppable juggernought it’s supposed to be.

With 4 HP, it can still be glanced down. Or one-shotted, if you roll a 3 on the extra d3 wounds. But I’m OK with that. AV14 is not getting casually glanced to death. S8 is not quite as spammable as S6-7.

The only thing that I have an issue with the the catastrophic damage table for when it blows up (and the affect on passenger rule). As being a mini-SH with 4 HP, I could see ignoring that, or having a minus on the roll. In all fairness, that should probably be balanced by not allowing thunderblitz, or penalizing that roll as well.

**Martel732**

Grimmor wrote:
emptyhat wrote:
What about "All penetrating hits are counted as glancing".

Thats going way to far.

Up its transport capacity to 12, make it ignore dangerous terrain, and make it cost 200 points. There, done.

Again, you're hosing melta and making haywire and D still godly. And potholes are still godly as well.

The sad part is that in the 7th ed meta, I still wouldn't pay 200 for a Land Raider. Too much can still go wrong.