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Spot on katara the micro impact will sway more people than the macro does a shop worker care if a bank goes else where? not likley but they do care that due to the abundance of unskilled labour around there wages are kept at a minimum as the old if you dont like it we can get some one who will comes into play. And its not going to get better for them as the eu parliment are pushing a bill though that say all job vacancys have to be advertized eu wide from the get go.
The hyperthetical shop worker also notes the time it takes to see a doc or dentist. In the end to me the immigration debate comes down to numbers.
can the uk house more people?, very doubtful.
can our social services handle any more? No
can our inferstructure (schools/transport/power etc) handle more? On some no on others maybe.
these are problems than can be sorted with a run up but with the way eu people can move around how do you budget for it ? Damned if i know but from what i see it can barely handle what its got let alone an unknown amount at any time.

Personaly i'm voting out as i want my mp to have a say and if they dont i can get rid.(in theary)i want our supream court to be the final say over laws. And my instinct is to get out before tge house of cards colapses on us. (Ps i am that unskilled shop worker.)

I want to go in the hope it causes the EU to collapse in beautiful flames. Mostly because it can be remade in a far better, and democratic, way which will make us all happy.

Riiiiight.

Well, cheers for trying to screw up my life and the lives of millions of other people who depend on the structures of the EU for their relationships, working situations and general living situation.

It's really considerate.
(If anyone wants to know why this topic makes Da Boss an even pricklier prick than normal, comments like the above are exactly the cause. If the EU collapses my job (a teacher in an international school with lots of students from all over), my living situation (a non-German national living and working in Germany) and my relationship (in the process of marrying a German lady, smoothed over massively by the EU) would all go down the crapper. And I'm not alone, there are millions of us.)

 Da Boss wrote:
Riiiiight.

Well, cheers for trying to screw up my life and the lives of millions of other people who depend on the structures of the EU for their relationships, working situations and general living situation.

The EU is well on its way to collapsing on its own, with or without our help in the form of a Brexit. Don't make Britain your scapegoat for the failure of the European Union.

And aren't you a real big fan of the idea of a federal Europe?

Do you think that is a possible outcome of the EU carries on like this. Because it is really struggling right now.

Shadow Captain: I'm not scapegoating Britain. Don't put fething words in my mouth. I was responding DIRECTLY to welshhoppo's statement that he wants to see the EU burn.

I'm hopeful the EU can survive Britain's exit and overcome the current challenges.

welshhoppo: There's a better chance of that happening if the EU continues to exist than if it collapses. And do you realise how horribly inconvenient and terrible for all of Europe it would be to have the EU collapse? It'd be chaotic and unpredictable as hell.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think it's lunacy.

We'll burn was a figure of speech. I have no intention of standing on the White Cliffs of Dover, Cigar in hand and Rule Brittania blazing loudly whilst watching the sky turn red from Europe Burning......


What I mean is that I hope Britain leaving makes the EU take a good hard look at itself and realise that it needs to do some serious soul searching. And that if one country can leave, and a pretty important one I believe, then if something doesn't change other countries might start to leave too. Last time I checked a lot of MEPs are from EuroSkeptic parties, it might be the case that the loudest voice gets the vote in the EU elections because no one else seems incredibly bothered by it, but that shows that something isn't right and it is felt across many of the nations. Quite a few of them have got a beef to pick with some part of the system, I'm sure plenty of people are annoyed that Greece managed to 'hide' its finances and cause a problem that way. Plus the current migrant situation isn't helping either.

 Da Boss wrote:
Shadow Captain: I'm not scapegoating Britain. Don't put fething words in my mouth. I was responding DIRECTLY to welshhoppo's statement that he wants to see the EU burn.

I'm hopeful the EU can survive Britain's exit and overcome the current challenges.

I don't think the Eu will unduly suffer from the UK exit. The EU suffers from the fact that some countries are still in.

The NI peace process will result in a border deal between Britain and Ireland very quickly. Also it will aid several countries in Europe to have trade deals with the Uk in place by the time Brexit is finalised.
I hope the UK stays, and will vote In, but don't think its entirely doom and gloom for the EU if the UK chooses not to.

That is my hope also. Though I think the project will be damaged by losing a member as important and influential as Britain.

Welshhoppo: Well, that's a lot more reasonable. I also hope for a re-examination of the EU. The problem is that it is formed by the governments people elect, and the quality of representative currently there is not particularly good. They are secretive and authoritarian. But this can be changed - we simply need to vote for different candidates. I think we will be able to manage it.

This movement is attempting to push for reform, and has the backing of the European Greens. Unfortunately it's got Varofakis as a mouthpiece, the odious turd, but a lot of the other people involved are very solid!
http://diem25.org

Shadow Captain: I'm not scapegoating Britain. Don't put fething words in my mouth. I was responding DIRECTLY to welshhoppo's statement that he wants to see the EU burn.

I'm not just referring to your previous comment replying to welshhoppo, you have been pretty consistent in this thread saying that Britain leaving is going to damage the EU and "sabotage the EU project". I think you're putting too much emphasis on the potential damage to the EU of a Brexit, and overlooking the damage thats already been caused and is still being caused to the EU by factors which have nothing to do with Britain. The Schengen zone is on the verge of collapse, and that has feth all to do with us.

Welshhoppo: Well, that's a lot more reasonable. I also hope for a re-examination of the EU. The problem is that it is formed by the governments people elect, and the quality of representative currently there is not particularly good. They are secretive and authoritarian. But this can be changed - we simply need to vote for different candidates. I think we will be able to manage it.

Sounds like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to me. Simply changing the people in charge of a fundamentally broken system is not enough.

If you change who is in charge, perhaps they can reform the system to make it less broken.

And yeah, I've made no secret of the fact that I consider Britain to have been a negative influence within the EU in a lot of ways, and that the brexit debate exasperates me. I don't apologise for it either.

It annoys me that "the EU" gets blamed for things (for example the eastward expansion of the EU to include the post-communist Eastern European nations) that were heavily pushed for by British administrations from within the EU.

But I've probably said enough about that sort of thing and am pissing people off to no constructive end, so I'm going to refrain from banging on and on about it unless directly asked or challenged from now on.

It'll be better for all of our blood pressure!

And yeah, I've made no secret of the fact that I consider Britain to have been a negative influence within the EU in a lot of ways, and that the brexit debate exasperates me. I don't apologise for it either.

If you think we're such a negative influence then the hell don't you want us to leave?

 welshhoppo wrote:
I want to go in the hope it causes the EU to collapse in beautiful flames. Mostly because it can be remade in a far better, and democratic, way which will make us all happy.

I don't think that will happen. If the UK leaves, it will cause a very severe shock to the whole EU project, and the French will hate us for ever. Whether it collapses or not, I doubt the French and Germans will want us back in because it's partly our childish whiny intransigent attitude that has made things so rocky so far.

If Britain would put its big boy pants on and show some fething leadership and adaptability, we could have most of the EU nations eating out of our hand. Historically we have always had a good relationship with Germany (two world wars and one world cup aside.) We could team up with them, and get a proper constitution and so on set up, and be king of the heap.

Britain is second or third most populous, second or third richest, first or second most fighty, and definitely first in terms of international soft and cultural power, out of all EU member states. We're absolute fools for turning our backs on the possibility of strongly influencing the whole future of Europe just because of some grizzling from the House of Commons that MPs should be no.1.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

And yeah, I've made no secret of the fact that I consider Britain to have been a negative influence within the EU in a lot of ways, and that the brexit debate exasperates me. I don't apologise for it either.

If you think we're such a negative influence then the hell don't you want us to leave?

You said you are reading my posts, I've addressed this a whole pile of times! I'm ambivalent about the UK staying or leaving. In the end it's ye lot's decision and I respect that.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

If Britain would put its big boy pants on and show some fething leadership and adaptability, we could have most of the EU nations eating out of our hand. Historically we have always had a good relationship with Germany (two world wars and one world cup aside.) We could team up with them, and get a proper constitution and so on set up, and be king of the heap.

In short: yes. The EU's current main problem is that it wants to make people believe that every country is equal in the EU - and they aren't. It's a few strong countries pulling the weak ones in their wake. Germany and the UK can and, most importantly, should rise up and take control of the entire project. They are the EU's leading power and with the UK on their side, the entire EU has an even stronger relation to the US who will also be more willing to support a strong union instead of the fragile...thing we have nowadays. People just need to stop living in their "Everyone is awesome!" bubble and realize that a strong union needs strong leadership.

France could do with stepping up to the plate a bit more too. They're a disgrace, currently.

France has a lot of problems right now they need to tackle before being able to get back to the big boy's table. Thanks to their socialist leadership, their financials are in complete disarray and it will take quite some time for them to recover.

 Da Boss wrote:
France could do with stepping up to the plate a bit more too. They're a disgrace, currently.

So it's everyone else who is the problem?


Mervyn King seems to think the EU is on it's last legs - he made the point that all the coutries which are suffering economically are basically a direct strain on the taxpayers of the well-off member states, so a 'BREXIT' will at least separate British taxpayers from that financial burden.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/648539/Eurozone-doomed-single-currency-crisis-Mervyn-King

http://www.cityam.com/235580/former-bank-of-england-governor-mervyn-king-says-the-eurozone-is-doomed-to-fail

Well, I'm originally from the South East and have lived all over the UK and can say for a fact that migration is not a problem faced solely by those in the south.
I now live in the East Midlands, near Boston, an area absolutely full to the brim with migrants from the EU.
The people of Thanet are not the only ones to have large amounts of migrants.
My kids compete with Poles and Lithuanians for school places and for space to see doctors and dentists, and you know what, I don't blame the migrants for being here.
However, I am used to hearing the complaints of people who basically can't be arsed to engage brain cell one about any issue, and just blame migrants for every, single problem.
The work that the migrants mostly do is back breaking, repetitive and thankless agricultural labour.
If they are willing to leave their families behind, and work as hard as they do, good luck to them.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

If Britain would put its big boy pants on and show some fething leadership and adaptability, we could have most of the EU nations eating out of our hand. Historically we have always had a good relationship with Germany (two world wars and one world cup aside.) We could team up with them, and get a proper constitution and so on set up, and be king of the heap.

In short: yes. The EU's current main problem is that it wants to make people believe that every country is equal in the EU - and they aren't. It's a few strong countries pulling the weak ones in their wake. Germany and the UK can and, most importantly, should rise up and take control of the entire project. They are the EU's leading power and with the UK on their side, the entire EU has an even stronger relation to the US who will also be more willing to support a strong union instead of the fragile...thing we have nowadays. People just need to stop living in their "Everyone is awesome!" bubble and realize that a strong union needs strong leadership.

If the refugee crisis is any indication, I think the EU can do without the 'strong leadership' that has exacerbated the problem.

The current German government isn't a strong leadership, it's bending over and surrendering any last sign of rationality.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
I want to go in the hope it causes the EU to collapse in beautiful flames. Mostly because it can be remade in a far better, and democratic, way which will make us all happy.

I don't think that will happen. If the UK leaves, it will cause a very severe shock to the whole EU project, and the French will hate us for ever.

Well the French and English have hated each other for as long as there has been England. So no different than the last 1,000 years then eh?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
I want to go in the hope it causes the EU to collapse in beautiful flames. Mostly because it can be remade in a far better, and democratic, way which will make us all happy.

I don't think that will happen. If the UK leaves, it will cause a very severe shock to the whole EU project, and the French will hate us for ever.

Well the French and English have hated each other for as long as there has been England. So no different than the last 1,000 years then eh?

The French (or at least their ruling class) will always hate us whether we Stay or Leave.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

If Britain would put its big boy pants on and show some fething leadership and adaptability, we could have most of the EU nations eating out of our hand. Historically we have always had a good relationship with Germany (two world wars and one world cup aside.) We could team up with them, and get a proper constitution and so on set up, and be king of the heap.

This cannot happen, because our politicians are British and there are enough French and Benelux politicians who just dont like us.
Its not anything we do, its because we are British.
De Gaulle summed this up, he blocked UK entry to the EEC until he was replaced by his death even though every other member country wanted us in and the UK had the economic credentials. Why did he veto UK membership? Because he was anglophobic.
There is an awful amount of racism in the EU and the UK is a major target of it.

The UK has had strong leadership, Thatcher is a good example, yet the Iron Lady didn't have the EU eating out of her hand. Thatcher was more eurosceptic than europhobic, and wanted to make a go of it, but couldn't get round the bullcrap, and thus switched from negotiating with the EU to just plain bullying it. In this she was successful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
France could do with stepping up to the plate a bit more too. They're a disgrace, currently.

So it's everyone else who is the problem?


Mervyn King seems to think the EU is on it's last legs - he made the point that all the coutries which are suffering economically are basically a direct strain on the taxpayers of the well-off member states, so a 'BREXIT' will at least separate British taxpayers from that financial burden.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/648539/Eurozone-doomed-single-currency-crisis-Mervyn-King

http://www.cityam.com/235580/former-bank-of-england-governor-mervyn-king-says-the-eurozone-is-doomed-to-fail

The Eurozone is stable at the core, and will eventually be reduced to the core. From what I have heard Germany and France are already in agreement on this. The EU is too large and has financial union between too many countries. The plan is to kick out the club med economies, and possibly Ireland too, and stick with Germany, France, Benelux and any of the Scandinavian countries which want in. Italy's membership is questionable, The UK was to be welcome to remain in also.

Former member states would have trade partnerships in lieu of full membership, thgis is to prevent ugly destabilisation. The UK would be responsible (to some extent) for Ireland, and France would be responsible to a similar extent for Spain. AFAIK no one is going to shoulder the responsibility for Greece, and there is no land border to worrit over.. Germany would have to support Italy, as that would be the remaining drain within the EU. Portugal, was also to be given a parachute, probably via the UK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
The current German government isn't a strong leadership, it's bending over and surrendering any last sign of rationality.

Germany has a double hit. First there is the progressive concensus which infects a lot of politics in Europe, the Uk bought this bullcrap early ands is heading out the other side. Germany is still caught in the PC fad, some nations even more so.
Consequently it is political suicide to be insufficiently politically correct with regards to immigration, like it was in the UK ten to fifteen years ago.

Germany however also has the Holocaust guilt trip, and the is no way out of that even two generations later. No German government can afford to be in any way 'negative' towards a minority group. Though the Cologne attacks is beginning to undermine this.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
I want to go in the hope it causes the EU to collapse in beautiful flames. Mostly because it can be remade in a far better, and democratic, way which will make us all happy.

I don't think that will happen. If the UK leaves, it will cause a very severe shock to the whole EU project, and the French will hate us for ever.

Well the French and English have hated each other for as long as there has been England. So no different than the last 1,000 years then eh?

The French (or at least their ruling class) will always hate us whether we Stay or Leave.

Don't forget, the reason we didn't actually enter the EU for so long was because de Galle hated us first. Apparently helping him out in World War Two was the wrong choice to make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
France could do with stepping up to the plate a bit more too. They're a disgrace, currently.

So it's everyone else who is the problem?


Mervyn King seems to think the EU is on it's last legs - he made the point that all the coutries which are suffering economically are basically a direct strain on the taxpayers of the well-off member states, so a 'BREXIT' will at least separate British taxpayers from that financial burden.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/648539/Eurozone-doomed-single-currency-crisis-Mervyn-King

http://www.cityam.com/235580/former-bank-of-england-governor-mervyn-king-says-the-eurozone-is-doomed-to-fail

I was always of the opinion that tying multiple country's currency's together was going to be a bad idea... Turned out I was right.

In a globalised world, all the countries suffering economically are a drag on everyone.

That's part of why the markets everywhere are jittery. It's not just bits of Europe, China's in the doldrums, this affects extraction industries in Australia and Africa, which hits Rio Tinto Zinc's price on the London Stock Exchange.

It's all connected.

 welshhoppo wrote:
I was always of the opinion that tying multiple country's currency's together was going to be a bad idea... Turned out I was right.

There is nothing wrong with the idea, but a significant number of the countries were allowed to fiddle their figures to hit the convergence criteria (including France), which basically undermines the whole idea.

Despite that, it isn't France who has suffered, but places like Greece, whose government was enabled to borrow cheaply and invest the money very unwisely. Even this would not have been so insupportable if it weren't for serious problems with corruption and tax collection in Greece.

But, while the UK has had to make some contribution to the European Central Bank for bailing out the Greeks and so on, we bailed out some of our own banks with vastly greater amounts of public money, when we could legally have just let them go bankrupt.

Frankly, Mervyn King should take the beam out of his own eye before pointing at the mote in the eye of the ECB.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Despite that, it isn't France who has suffered, but places like Greece, whose government was enabled to borrow cheaply and invest the money very unwisely. Even this would not have been so insupportable if it weren't for serious problems with corruption and tax collection in Greece.

But, while the UK has had to make some contribution to the European Central Bank for bailing out the Greeks and so on, we bailed out some of our own banks with vastly greater amounts of public money, when we could legally have just let them go bankrupt.

Frankly, Mervyn King should take the beam out of his own eye before pointing at the mote in the eye of the ECB.

To be fair the RSB bailout was the government of the times decision. Mainly because Gordon Brown could see that Labour was haemorraging votes in Scotland. Though heavily encouraged by the City, because it allowed the banking industry to paper over the need for reform.

Anything that is done is the government of the time's decision.
Would a conservative government have done things differently? It is pretty unlikely. New Labour emulated the Conservative Party's business friendliness as a matter of policy. There also is an argument that something had to be done, to avoid a total financial meltdown.

At any rate, the government bailed out Northern Rock, RBS and Lloyds.

Barclays was saved by taking a collosal investment from the soverign wealth fund of Dubai. While this saved the British tax-payer billions of pounds, it hardly augers well for the national sovereignty of our financial system.

(HSBC was okay at the time, but since then has been caught out in a variety of malpractices.)

The basic point is that the UK payments into the European Stability Fund are tiny in comparison. It wouldn't do our economy any good if the Eurozone went down the tubes, so arguably we are making a sensible investment by helping them to bail out.