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 Mr. Burning wrote:

Do we want to be part of a Europe where centralized control is taken of our ecomomic, defence, diplomatic and domestic policies? Full federalisation is the aim of the EU and its leaders.

Do you want an independent UK effectively.

Everything else is really just mud slinging and smears at this point.

This is so hilarious - you have Farage and Johnson insulting foreigners, invoking Hitler, then they complain that people are insulting them!

The Brexit campaign isn't really about asserting independence. it's Boris Johnson's leadership campaign, and a step toward dismantling the NHS and other great institutions, as expounded by Farage and the major Brexit backer, watering down workers' and human rights, and turning us into a tax haven like Panama or the Cayman Islands, where the super-rich moor their yachts, and we clean their toilets.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Do we want to be part of a Europe where centralized control is taken of our ecomomic, defence, diplomatic and domestic policies? Full federalisation is the aim of the EU and its leaders.

Do you want an independent UK effectively.

Everything else is really just mud slinging and smears at this point.

This is so hilarious - you have Farage and Johnson insulting foreigners, invoking Hitler, then they complain that people are insulting them!

The Brexit campaign isn't really about asserting independence. it's Boris Johnson's leadership campaign, and a step toward dismantling the NHS and other great institutions, as expounded by Farage and the major Brexit backer, watering down workers' and human rights, and turning us into a tax haven like Panama or the Cayman Islands, where the super-rich moor their yachts, and we clean their toilets.

Which is what the EU wants as well is it not? (Obvs not Boris as our 'Kingminister'! though).

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Do we want to be part of a Europe where centralized control is taken of our ecomomic, defence, diplomatic and domestic policies? Full federalisation is the aim of the EU and its leaders.

Do you want an independent UK effectively.

Everything else is really just mud slinging and smears at this point.

This is so hilarious - you have Farage and Johnson insulting foreigners, invoking Hitler, then they complain that people are insulting them!

The Brexit campaign isn't really about asserting independence. it's Boris Johnson's leadership campaign, and a step toward dismantling the NHS and other great institutions, as expounded by Farage and the major Brexit backer, watering down workers' and human rights, and turning us into a tax haven like Panama or the Cayman Islands, where the super-rich moor their yachts, and we clean their toilets.

The NHS is being dismantled anyway, being in or out of Europe is irrelevant.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

This is so hilarious - you have Farage and Johnson insulting foreigners, invoking Hitler, then they complain that people are insulting them!

The Brexit campaign isn't really about asserting independence. it's Boris Johnson's leadership campaign, and a step toward dismantling the NHS and other great institutions, as expounded by Farage and the major Brexit backer, watering down workers' and human rights, and turning us into a tax haven like Panama or the Cayman Islands, where the super-rich moor their yachts, and we clean their toilets.

I thought this was a vote to determine whether we stay or leave the EU, not to vote in a new prime minister! As I mentioned a page or two back, don't fall for the trap of party polticising this. It's too big for that. Also, don't fall for the trap of "I can't stand this current government and only the EU can save us". The current government, whatever the ideology, will continue with its goals. Handing over more power to the EU is just moving the decisions to an office who is less accountable to us, the electorate.

It's too big and important to trivialise and focus on personalities who will be gone in 10 years, probably less.

Agreed on that. Referenda are about personal choices and beliefs. I think the media focus on all these "big beasts" and so on is pretty stupid - someone could think Boris is a total arse, and still vote Out no problem, or think Corbyn is a dangerous terrorist supporting allotment spanker and vote In without a second choice.

The divying of things up along political party lines I think is only happening because political journalists find it difficult to see the world through any other lens.

I've kinda lost track of what's been going on in this thread. But I was just wondering what our resident Briton's opinion on this documentary was. I thought it was pretty good.....

 Da Boss wrote:
Agreed on that. Referenda are about personal choices and beliefs. I think the media focus on all these "big beasts" and so on is pretty stupid - someone could think Boris is a total arse, and still vote Out no problem, or think Corbyn is a dangerous terrorist supporting allotment spanker and vote In without a second choice.

The divying of things up along political party lines I think is only happening because political journalists find it difficult to see the world through any other lens.

Good point. I think Bojo, Farage, and Gove, are idiots at the best of times, but I'll still be voting No

KInda sad that I'm on the same side as people like that

but this goes beyond party politics.

Dakka members may or may not be aware of this interesting polling news this week: ICM polls have shown a lead for Leave on the online poll, but the telephone poll shows a clear lead for remain!

Very strange. ICM are respected pollsters, so I doubt if the methodology is to blame here. I've been rooting around for some explanation from those more qualified than me, but I've drawn a blank. Anyway, here's the polls causing the news.

As always, undecideds are left out, and the sample size is 1000.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Online poll :

Remain 43% (-1)
Leave 47% (+1)

Phone poll :

Remain 47% (-1)
Leave 39% (-2)

One thing i haven't heard anyone throw out there is; If it's such a good idea to join a united states of something wouldn't it be more advantageous to join the united states of America?

Heresy i know and i wouldn't want that, but i don't want to be part of the united states of Europe either.

 SirDonlad wrote:
One thing i haven't heard anyone throw out there is; If it's such a good idea to join a united states of something wouldn't it be more advantageous to join the united states of America?

Heresy i know and i wouldn't want that, but i don't want to be part of the united states of Europe either.

The USA was able to implement its system from day one.

The EU however, as you know, is a collection of sovereign nations with rich history, and varied customs that have developed over the centuries etc etc

with the EU morphing from a loose economic zone to the modern behemoth it is now. It's hard to compare the two and it would be even harder to force all the sovereign nations of Europe into a European version of the USA, even if everybody agreed on it.

Polls are all over the place. For a start older people are more likely to vote, polls indicate one thing but the shy right wing anti immigration vote is definitely a thing, or people could be more keen to make the effort to play it safe and vote in once they get to a polling station.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The EU however, as you know, is a collection of sovereign nations with rich history, and varied customs that have developed over the centuries etc etc

But not for long!
That five presidents stated it in writing; you get involved, you slowly relinquish your sovereignty.
The point i was making is that if we give up that, then we may as well join with the united states of America and try to create the united states of the northern hemisphere (USNH) - they all speak our language (more or less), we'd be no less respected diplomatically than we are with the EU and then there would be a chance to integrate russia and build a road bridge between them and America so you could drive from one side of the atlantic to the other around the entire world!

Everybody wins!!!

/humor

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Polls are all over the place. For a start older people are more likely to vote, polls indicate one thing but the shy right wing anti immigration vote is definitely a thing, or people could be more keen to make the effort to play it safe and vote in once they get to a polling station.

I'm thinking along these lines, myself. The UKIP vote will definitely be out in force on June 23rd, this after all, is what they've been waiting for. As for online poll vs. telephone, I was going to chalk it up to the older people on the phone, and the younger people online, but then I read an article about the rising number of older people getting their mitts on computers, so what do I know?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The EU however, as you know, is a collection of sovereign nations with rich history, and varied customs that have developed over the centuries etc etc

But not for long!
That five presidents stated it in writing; you get involved, you slowly relinquish your sovereignty.
The point i was making is that if we give up that, then we may as well join with the united states of America and try to create the united states of the northern hemisphere (USNH) - they all speak our language (more or less), we'd be no less respected diplomatically than we are with the EU and then there would be a chance to integrate russia and build a road bridge between them and America so you could drive from one side of the atlantic to the other around the entire world!

Everybody wins!!!

/humor

But in the unlikely event of the UK joining the USA, we would have to suffer root beer...and Texas!

On a serious note, the British public would never agree to the 2nd amendment. Not in a million years. But that's a discussion for another thread.

I'm on the leave side at the moment but won't be fussed too badly if we stay in as up here EU is generally seen as quite positive. In fact for a lot of people it's seen as a buffer between us and the tories/westminster.
Whether that's the case or not I'm not convinced but TTIP is the step too far for me. England is already losing her NHS I don't want us to lose our's as well.
IMHO I'm also sure that remain will ultimately be victorious in this but England alone will ultimately dictate what happen's in this refereundum and I'm again pretty sure that, as a mercantile nation, they will go where the money is and vote to remain.

"In a way I'm glad that the UK is experiencing this, it may broaden awareness of the crappy tactics in the media. Everyone seemed hunky dory with this crap when they were doing it to Scotland." This!

I just hope that when this is over we realize that we will need to take a good look at our press. They have been utterly disgusting for decades and more and yet a good few folk still rely on them for information and facts but don't realize all they get is opinion.

Cheer's

The problem with phone polls is that try as you might to get a random sample, ultimately you only get people who have the patience to do a poll on the phone and are at home during those hours, mostly the retired and unemployed I imagine.

Watching Boris and Farage on the news this evening was enoough to drive me out of the house and deliver several hundred Labour IN leaflets in my area.

The Quitters basic argument is this: everything that is wrong with our country we can blame the EU. Quit the EU and we can fix everything.

Beautifully simple and and totally ignoring the fact that many of the problems facing modern Britain are caused by our own inability to make the right decisions.

If the Quitters win, the blame game will turn elsewhere, and that is when I really do fear it could get ugly. We are not immune to the rise of a nasty, vicious, populist, racist right and a Quit victory could see such a force develop as no, leaving the EU at best does not fix our problems, at worse makes things much worse.

FacebookJunkie wrote:
Watching Boris and Farage on the news this evening was enoough to drive me out of the house and deliver several hundred Labour IN leaflets in my area.

The Quitters basic argument is this: everything that is wrong with our country we can blame the EU. Quit the EU and we can fix everything.

Beautifully simple and and totally ignoring the fact that many of the problems facing modern Britain are caused by our own inability to make the right decisions.

If the Quitters win, the blame game will turn elsewhere, and that is when I really do fear it could get ugly. We are not immune to the rise of a nasty, vicious, populist, racist right and a Quit victory could see such a force develop as no, leaving the EU at best does not fix our problems, at worse makes things much worse.

Hyperbole. Leaving the EU will not make jackboot production soar in Great Britain.

And actually, the basic argument for leaving is that we don't want to be part of the United States of Europe. I (and I daresay many others like me) would happily vote to stay if that meant the status quo. Unfortunately, according to the Five Presidents report from the EU (signed by the five most powerful bureaucrats as a statement of intent), this is coming up within the next few years:-

...will inevitably involve sharing more sovereignty over time... In practice, this would require Member States to accept increasingly joint decision-making on elements of their respective national budgets and economic policies.

And y'know? I'm not so keen on Brussels deciding they should be dictating where my Government spends its budget thanks.

But feel free to keep painting those voting 'Out' as simple minded right wingers. I know it makes it easier to dismiss us, and not engage on any substantial level....

One Remainer I know of is also an SNP fanatic. Unsurprisingly, to him it's OK for Scotland to keep demanding referendums until they vote to leave the UK, yet Farrage is the devil incarnate for wanting the same thing for the UK with regards to the EU. He tries to justify it by claiming that only major constitutional change (leaving the EU for example) warrants more referendums for Scotland. But if the same conditions were set for the EU referendum (a remain vote will only stand so long as the EU remains exactly as it is at present and never ever changes its consitution.) it's just Leavers being Fascists.

Anyway, I'm voting to leave because I don't want to be apart of an ever closer union. Especially when this Union is run by an unaccountable cabal whos incompetence is now become dangerous. Remainers tell me that we'll lose influence outside of the EU, but I disagree. Inside the EU we're just No. 28 at the table. And we're often outvoted. They say stay inside and fight for reform. We've been in here for 40 odd years and it's only getting worse. The whole moving from Brussels to Strasburg and back thing for example. That needs knocked on the head but nobody is interested in stopping it so why keep paying for it?

But outside we can set our own agendas and it'll be them who have to respond to us. Turkey is outside of the EU yet it's playing them like a banjo.

And never forget, we buy more from the eu than they do from us. We are effectively the customer and they are the shop. If they start screwing around with us we can simply take our business elsewhere and deprave them of that money, which they sorely need at the moment. How long will Germany let tariffs on those VWs and Beamers stand for? After all, in the EU what Germany wants Germany gets.

I remember a Jon Stewart bit on the EU being the Germans third attempt at conquering Europe.

'If we couldn't get them through war we'll get them through beaurocracy!' Or something along those lines...

FacebookJunkie wrote:
Watching Boris and Farage on the news this evening was enoough to drive me out of the house and deliver several hundred Labour IN leaflets in my area.

The Quitters basic argument is this: everything that is wrong with our country we can blame the EU. Quit the EU and we can fix everything.

Beautifully simple and and totally ignoring the fact that many of the problems facing modern Britain are caused by our own inability to make the right decisions.

If the Quitters win, the blame game will turn elsewhere, and that is when I really do fear it could get ugly. We are not immune to the rise of a nasty, vicious, populist, racist right and a Quit victory could see such a force develop as no, leaving the EU at best does not fix our problems, at worse makes things much worse.

I'm voting to leave, but for the record, I will put my hand up and say that the EU has done some good over the years. A loose trading alliance, with co-operation on security and the environment makes perfect sense to me, and probably nearly everybody else. I'm in favour of that.

And if there was a genuine attempt to really reform the EU for the better, make it more accountable and less bureaucratic I'd probably be in favour of that as well.

Unfortunately, the EU seems unwilling and unable to make this change, paralysed as it is by inertia left, right, and centre, with the 5 presidents report being the final straw for me.

And no, I don't blame Europe for everything - the incompetence of our politicians is not news to me.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
... Remainers tell me that we'll lose influence outside of the EU, but I disagree. Inside the EU we're just No. 28 at the table. And we're often outvoted. They say stay inside and fight for reform. We've been in here for 40 odd years and it's only getting worse. ...

The influence argument always makes me laugh. Couple the fact that we've had a string of spineless politicians, of both colours, acceding to EU demands, other European countries not wanting what the UK is offering (or, I suspect, want to prevent the UK competing with other states too much) along with the UK's continuing lackluster attempts at reform, means that our "influence" is a joke. We have more influence in non EU countries and trade more with non EU countries, so I fail to understand what benefit remaining will have.

As for No. 28 at the EU table, too right. This picture pretty much explains why I think the absurd argument that the UK in the EU has more power is a joke:

Got my EU referendum leaflet through the door from the Electoral commission - it's the one where both sides get one page to present their argument.

For anybody who hasn't received theirs yet, here's the main points:

LEAVE: If we don't leave the EU, terminator zombies will destroy Britain.

REMAIN: if we don't stay in the EU, zombie terminators will destroy Britain

My polling card arrived today. It feels more official now.

@ zedmeister

That perfectly sums up my position. A picture is worth a thousand words after all.

Why stay in an organisation and 'fight' (yeah right) for reform when you can just leave it and not have to put up with the things that you think should be reformed?

Obama wants us to stay and so does Cameron, in my mind that means get the hell out.

Also the whole 'EU Superstate' thing is being talked about again.

When I was at an interview with journalists in Brussels about 8 years ago I remember when the MEPs basically dodged the question and kept trying to deflect any talk of an 'EU Army'

It's where its headed, it might take 5 years it might take 25 but it will get to a point where people will think its 'inevitable' and then it will happen.

By giving this 'FU' to the EU it can be a good thing and shake it up.

Absolutely.

When I was making a case to a pro EU supporter that Turkey will be fast tracked in, Cameron's 'deal' will be vetoed in the event of an In vote and that the Superstate is the EU's ultimate goal, they kept hitting me with 'you can't prove that. Where's the proof?' The problem for me was, I didn't have the proof. But all these things are going to happen. You only have to look at the EU's past actions and the thoughts and actions of its leaders to know this.

It's like the EU is a well known gangster. You know what they're doing and what they're planning to do but there's no actual physical proof of it. Yet. I will admit though that I am a poor debater and this guy obliviously has is brief in order. You know how a good lawyer can defeat a bad one in court even if they're peddling a falsehood? It's like that, sort of.

He is an outstanding guy though and there's no hostility between us. I hope

They also kept saying that the only way to push for reform was to stay inside. Despite the fact that we are outvoted on most matters and it'll only get worse as more countries are let in and we become number 29 at the table...then number 32...then number 40, and so on. In the fact If anything, staying inside will only make things even worse. Because now their attitude will be 'no, we aren't pursuing these ideas of yours. What are you going to do about it? Leave? Yeah right!'.

We've come too far to turn back now. We have to leave. I fear that if we don't we will be making our single biggest mistake as a nation since deciding to get involved in WW1. Because the end result of staying in is being only 28th of a nation...and reducing that fraction even more in future.

Despite the fear filled articles and buffoonery from both Leave and Remain, I've done a fair bit of research (admittedly forced due to the childishness of the main players) and I think I'd quite like the UK to remain part of the EU.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
that the Superstate is the EU's ultimate goal, they kept hitting me with 'you can't prove that. Where's the proof?' The problem for me was, I didn't have the proof.

You do now - the five presidents report.

It's spelled out there, in black and white. The next stage to the EU Superstate will be towards a full fiscal union - everyone is taxed and Brussels decides where to spend it. You can bet your last penny that the next major treaty change will involve the first steps towards this. And then onwards and no turning back. Ever.

 zedmeister wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
that the Superstate is the EU's ultimate goal, they kept hitting me with 'you can't prove that. Where's the proof?' The problem for me was, I didn't have the proof.

You do now - the five presidents report.

It's spelled out there, in black and white. The next stage to the EU Superstate will be towards a full fiscal union - everyone is taxed and Brussels decides where to spend it. You can bet your last penny that the next major treaty change will involve the first steps towards this. And then onwards and no turning back. Ever.

And if we dislike how those taxes are being spent, what chance do we have of voting out a European government? NONE.

At least we can toss out the Tories or Labour when we get fed up with them. We can't vote out a government if we're just one province out of 28.

I do not consent to the dilution of my democratic influence as a British voter.

Did anyone watch the Jermony Paxman documentary?

Just Watched it now
https://youtu.be/MaQVzEqO3ME
well worth a watch and seems fairly impartial.