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So... much... hyperbole...

How about sticking to something vaguely like facts rather than taking about creating a new bonfire night in the summer and so on.

Asterios wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Asterios wrote:
but you are looking at each instance by itself, you pick up a rock and put it in your pocket,you don't really notice it and it does not effect you, you pick up another rock and put it in your pocket, now you notice they are there, but not really effecting you, then you put another rock in your pocket and so on and so on until it becomes noticeable and effects you. you get enough incidents happening and things will take notice, then there is the VAT situation, how will VAT be handled between Europe and the UK now? how will trade and travel be handled? how will the Chunnel be effected? so many questions all of which can effect things.

Trade can carry on relatively unchanged. Making items for the EU means adhering to certain regulations. the same regulations which other trading blocks have to adhere to as well.
It is in the EU and UKs interests to change very little regarding trade and travel.

As a Brit I don't expect my travel to EU countries to change that dramatically.

but you do not know for sure.

.

No one does, but with all the evidence I wont be too concerned with changes.

Even outside the EU we are still connected and of Europe. It behoves all parties to keep a certain status quo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Somewhat related:

Turkish premier Erdogan is celebrating the EUs ethos again.

'..Women without children are deficient....'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36466673

I'm not sure if the EU actually watches the news...... I can see the Lisbon treaty et al being amended again...

Today is the last day you can register to vote. You have until midnight.

I hope my fellow dakka members are all signed up and ready to go.

I'm all set up and ready to rock and vote.

I just saw this posted.
http://nyti.ms/1TSOsrQ

It's debunking myths from both sides, thought you guys might fund it interesting.

On my way to a meeting this morning I found another benefit to voting leave; In discussing it with a Cabby I got a free ride. Good old London Cabbies, you can always rely on their steadfast views!

So this family has already saved £4.

Stick that in you pipe and smoke it Mr Osboure!

So! Has the conservatives finished imploding yet? Between my PM dropping elbows on MPs and the American circus, I haven't been keeping up to well with jolly ol Britain.

£4 for a cab fare in London ?

One assumes you opened one door and got out the other side straight away !

Yeah it was only 500m up the city road but I was late!

Every little helps!

Its actually incredibly difficult to pick the right choice here because both sides are right in their scaremongering.

Immigration is swamping the UK but in the pension choked financial sector this is necessary to keep the wheels turning. The remain side hide the fact that without the open borders the country will be better able to handle its internal issues.

The average cost to Britons of leaving will undoubtedly be higher than it is now but not as much as the remain side claim. The problem is that most Brexiter's campaigning so hard are amongst those least likely to be hit by these costs. If you are a self employed person providing a service your job will be unaffected but if you are a small business trading with European partners or with companies in the UK that rely also on EU business your costs will rise drastically.

Brexiters state that unelected bureaucrats decide British laws but the MEP's are elected by us who then put those bureaucrats into place in the same way as we elect the government who then decide who sits in the cabinet. We can't control the EU bureaucrats in the same way we can't control the damage done to the education sector by gove and morgan. That is the danger of a pseudo democratic system.

I am totally undecided as each option is just as bad but we have to choose one. Leave and make a debatable better short term future or remain and hope for a better long term future? But on balance I lean towards Brexit ever so slightly.

Brexiters state that unelected bureaucrats decide British laws but the MEP's are elected by us who then put those bureaucrats into place in the same way as we elect the government who then decide who sits in the cabinet.

Only some of those MEPs are voted in by us. The rest are elected by 27 other nations, so Britain, could, and does, find itself outvoted on many issues that effect it.

I honestly don't think it matters how you vote. Many MP's have clear their intention to ignore a Leave vote by voting in Parliament to keep Britain in. This referendum isn't going to achieve anything substantial, but a Leave vote would be a clear Feth You to the establishment and the EU. I don't for one second believe that this Government will actually respect a Leave vote. The only way we will ever leave is if we elect a genuinely Eurosceptic government, and that ain't Labour or the Tories (in their current incarnation).

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Brexiters state that unelected bureaucrats decide British laws but the MEP's are elected by us who then put those bureaucrats into place in the same way as we elect the government who then decide who sits in the cabinet.

Only some of those MEPs are voted in by us. The rest are elected by 27 other nations, so Britain, could, and does, find itself outvoted on many issues that effect it.

Yes you are absolutely right. My point was only to illustrate that the point about unelected officials is only partially true. I find that every argument from both sides when you dig deeper is the same. Partial truths exaggerated for motivation by fear.

I hate that! Regardless of the outcome of this vote life will keep on keeping on. Its still gonna be hard work for the hard workers and no work for the rest. I just want people to educate themselves before they vote whichever way they vote!

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Brexiters state that unelected bureaucrats decide British laws but the MEP's are elected by us who then put those bureaucrats into place in the same way as we elect the government who then decide who sits in the cabinet.

Only some of those MEPs are voted in by us. The rest are elected by 27 other nations, so Britain, could, and does, find itself outvoted on many issues that effect it.

Yes you are absolutely right. My point was only to illustrate that the point about unelected officials is only partially true. I find that every argument from both sides when you dig deeper is the same. Partial truths exaggerated for motivation by fear.

I hate that! Regardless of the outcome of this vote life will keep on keeping on. Its still gonna be hard work for the hard workers and no work for the rest. I just want people to educate themselves before they vote whichever way they vote!

Whilst of course, the cabinet isn't set in stone, we do at least know with a good degree of probability who will fill which roles.

I'd also suggest that the...."mentality" surrounding electing MPs vs MEPs could be different. During a domestic GE parties campaign on the basis of a manifesto of what they will do over the next 5 years (at least you'd like to think so, IMO the UK electorate is far too tribal and really the manifesto doesn't matter enough to enough of the electorate - but that's another debate). With an MEP election we're voting for (a rather weaksauce IMO) ideological influence over whatever the EU's ongoing agenda is.

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Brexiters state that unelected bureaucrats decide British laws but the MEP's are elected by us who then put those bureaucrats into place in the same way as we elect the government who then decide who sits in the cabinet.

Only some of those MEPs are voted in by us. The rest are elected by 27 other nations, so Britain, could, and does, find itself outvoted on many issues that effect it.

Yes you are absolutely right. My point was only to illustrate that the point about unelected officials is only partially true. I find that every argument from both sides when you dig deeper is the same. Partial truths exaggerated for motivation by fear.

I hate that! Regardless of the outcome of this vote life will keep on keeping on. Its still gonna be hard work for the hard workers and no work for the rest. I just want people to educate themselves before they vote whichever way they vote!

If you're looking for education, you've come to the wrong place. Education is frowned upon in dakka land

On a serious note, I'm quite interested in politics - it's a hobby of mine, so I've been following the issues for years. Unfortunately, living in Scotland, I doubt if my vote will make any difference. The referendum will be decided in England.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I honestly don't think it matters how you vote. Many MP's have clear their intention to ignore a Leave vote by voting in Parliament to keep Britain in. This referendum isn't going to achieve anything substantial, but a Leave vote would be a clear Feth You to the establishment and the EU. I don't for one second believe that this Government will actually respect a Leave vote. The only way we will ever leave is if we elect a genuinely Eurosceptic government, and that ain't Labour or the Tories (in their current incarnation).

If your scenario played out, and I've said something similar myself, there would be civil disorder with UKIP's support going through the roof. I seriously doubt if our MPs are that stupid. Yeah, the bar isn't exactly set high

On another note, I'll say again that regardless of the result, UKIP's support can only go up. The Scottish independence referendum didn't kill the SNP - it gave them rocket fuel. Expect a similar thing to happen to UKIP. Europe will dominate British politics for at least a decade.

If your scenario played out, and I've said something similar myself, there would be civil disorder with UKIP's support going through the roof. I seriously doubt if our MPs are that stupid. Yeah, the bar isn't exactly set high

Oh, I think they are that stupid and vindictive. Theres been lots of headlines in the last week with MP's saying they'll vote against any motion in Parliament to withdraw from the EU.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
. The Scottish independence referendum didn't kill the SNP - it gave them rocket fuel. Expect a similar thing to happen to UKIP. Europe will dominate British politics for at least a decade.

If we successfully vote to leave that should surely trigger the need for another Scottish referendum because its my understanding that Scotland is generally pro Europe ( I might be wrong about that).

I heard Salmond saying this very thing on LBC last week. That is also a serious negative to the leave campaign as being a southerner from not so sunny London I was kinda moved by the better together campaign and really glad that the Scottish referendum went the way it did!

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

If your scenario played out, and I've said something similar myself, there would be civil disorder with UKIP's support going through the roof. I seriously doubt if our MPs are that stupid. Yeah, the bar isn't exactly set high

Oh, I think they are that stupid and vindictive.

It's unwise to do this, but I make 2 predictions:

1) Whoever wins the referendum will do so by a narrow margin.

2) UKIP will be kingmakers in 2020.

I base my UKIP prediction on the fact that Middle England will never buy into Corbyn, the Tories will be divided, the Lib Dems will be as useless as always, and UKIP's post referendum support will skyrocket.

If you vote to leave in the referendum, why would you go back to Tories/Labour/Lib Dems?

UKIP can't lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
. The Scottish independence referendum didn't kill the SNP - it gave them rocket fuel. Expect a similar thing to happen to UKIP. Europe will dominate British politics for at least a decade.

If we successfully vote to leave that should surely trigger the need for another Scottish referendum because its my understanding that Scotland is generally pro Europe ( I might be wrong about that).

I heard Salmond saying this very thing on LBC last week. That is also a serious negative to the leave campaign as being a southerner from not so sunny London I was kinda moved by the better together campaign and really glad that the Scottish referendum went the way it did!

I'm a Scottish independence supporter, so I'm not glad the referendum turned out as it did

I thinki I'm the exception up here (I'm voting to leave) but you right to say that Scotland is pro-EU. And yes, it could trigger another independence referendum.

Why is Scotland pro-EU? I think it's because the levels of immigration up here haven't been as bad as they been in South West England.

No argument there.

Either way though, we will not be withdrawing from the EU within this Parliament even with a vote to Leave no matter how strong the margin. The current Members of Parliament just will not have it, they'll obfuscate and dither and put up as many barriers as they can to kick the issue into the long grass for as long as they can.

The 2020 Parliament is what will finally decide the issue.

Why is Scotland pro-EU? I think it's because the levels of immigration up here haven't been as bad as they been in South West England.

Be careful what you wish for. Illegal immigration besides (Dover-Calais will always remain the primary entry point for illegals no matter what happens - they ain't gonna be crossing the North Sea), if the UK breaks up and England leaves the EU but Scotland stays in, Scotland will likely become a much more attractive destination for legal immigrants from the EU.

The 2020 Parliament is what will finally decide the issue.

That, or the British public marching on the House of Commons a la the Storming of the Winter Palace

I personally feel that it's better to stay in Europe (with my reasons why). In my opinion, the reason this referendum is occuring is because we have had several weak leaders (Clegg, Cameron, Brown, Blair) who seem to want to be PM for the sake of being PM and not for the benefit of the country/people.

If Brexit does happen, it's going to be a slow process as all the details are ironed out and new trade agreements are established - and a period I'm not going to be comfortable living in.

It's frightening how the Europe is spiraling out of control and the USA has a presidential election between a businessman with no political experience and a proven liar. What a time to be alive.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I personally feel that it's better to stay in Europe (with my reasons why). In my opinion, the reason this referendum is occuring is because we have had several weak leaders (Clegg, Cameron, Brown, Blair) who seem to want to be PM for the sake of being PM and not for the benefit of the country/people.

If Brexit does happen, it's going to be a slow process as all the details are ironed out and new trade agreements are established - and a period I'm not going to be comfortable living in.

It's frightening how the Europe is spiraling out of control and the USA has a presidential election between a businessman with no political experience and a proven liar. What a time to be alive.

Agreed. I'm going to live in the jungles of Africa and become a professional spoon whittler.


Also, on the notion of us not leaving by 2020, we have to wait two years before we leave anyway. Same thing that happened to Greenland when they left in the 80s.

Besides, if we vote leave there is a good chance that parliament will dissolve in a month or two, it would be a gigantic show of no confidence to the entire parliament seeing as they all want to stay. Although why Corbyn and the SNP want to is absolutely beyond me.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Although why Corbyn and the SNP want to is absolutely beyond me.

Cause it provides them with a 'legitimate' reason as to why they can't do anything about what will be going on (future laws and inclusion) and also provides them with a snappy retort to any question about why they are incapable of initiating change; "thats a scandal and i'm going to vote it down if i get a chance to vote on it!" followed by "well the reason i couldn't do anything about it is because all the other MEPs in Europe voted for it, there was nothing i could do"

If we stay in, the EU protects their 'job', shifts blame away from them and creates new 'jobs' of power and no responsibility for them and their friends.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36480764?post_id=987147614714959_987151421381245#_=_

Just in case anyone hasn't registered yet.

....the reason this referendum is occuring is because we have had several weak leaders (Clegg, Cameron, Brown, Blair) who seem to want to be PM for the sake of being PM and not for the benefit of the country/people......

....If we stay in, the EU protects their 'job', shifts blame away from them and creates new 'jobs' of power and no responsibility for them and their friends.....

In a nutshell.

Ever since Blair positioned himself to become leader of the EU, maybe a bit before, I have been very distrustful of the motives of our pro EU politicians. Withdrawing from the EU may..may.. see a change in how our politicians behave when there is no parachute to help in their retirement.

I anticipate we will see a lot of Europe bashing for many years to come though!

 SirDonlad wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Although why Corbyn and the SNP want to is absolutely beyond me.

Cause it provides them with a 'legitimate' reason as to why they can't do anything about what will be going on (future laws and inclusion) and also provides them with a snappy retort to any question about why they are incapable of initiating change; "thats a scandal and i'm going to vote it down if i get a chance to vote on it!" followed by "well the reason i couldn't do anything about it is because all the other MEPs in Europe voted for it, there was nothing i could do"

If we stay in, the EU protects their 'job', shifts blame away from them and creates new 'jobs' of power and no responsibility for them and their friends.

that's wrong. well, a bit of it is right actually! see later comments..

firstly, corbyn himself has long been a critic of the EU, from a left-wing perspective. The argument being that the EU is a huge capitalist jolly designed to make it easier for wealthy corporations to make money, which takes away national sovereignty and makes it very difficult for left-wing governments to operate - as both Spain and Greece have seen lately. In a fantasy world where a Corbyn-led socialist labour party has a mandate to run this country along socialist lines they are going to need to renegotiate or leave anyway.

So why is he enthusiastically Remain? Well, because both the Parliamentary Labour Party and the Constituency Labour Parties are both overwhelmingly pro-Remain (the Blairites believe in at and love the gravy train and love having something to blame*; the CLPers are generally wet liberal capitalists who love Europe because to not love Europe is exactly the same to them as being a massive racist and most of them have no idea how awful it actually is but they are more scared of Tories and UKIP running the country than they are scared of corporations doing same). So Corbyn, as a materialist, realises that uniting the labour party on the matter is easier and better than dividing it even more.

*this is the bit that you were right about. politicians love gravy trains.

What is worth remembering is that Britain can opt-out of pretty much any European stuff it wants. If you doubt that for a second, you must have forgotten the European directive about letting prisoners have the right to vote.

The whole thing remains nonsense and I still haven't heard a sensible or well-informed argument to sway me either way.

 daddyorchips wrote:
The whole thing remains nonsense and I still haven't heard a sensible or well-informed argument to sway me either way.

TTIP.

I won't quote because it would start looking like a wall of text, but I agree with you on the parts about Corbyn. It just strikes me as so peculiar that some people really like him despite the fact is a still a hypocritical politican, then again there aren't many there aren't.

Britain does have the power to deviate from some directives, but we don't have a choice over which ones we can deviate from. That power comes from the council who will basically write at the end of the directive *deviation applies / doesn't apply* and even then, the prisoner one is still going back and forth. Even then we haven't actually opted out of it. We just chose to ignore it and told the EU to go bite its own butt. But as late as last October, the EU courts decided that it wasn't unlawful for voting to be banned with a serious crime. We haven't seen the end of it yet. Unless we leave of course.

 daddyorchips wrote:
they are more scared of Tories and UKIP running the country than they are scared of corporations doing same.

Good point, i suppose i just expect MPs to be more savvy with regards to trusting private corporations to do 'whats right'.

I can't decide if corbyn has shown genuine leadership by making a difficult tactical decision or if he simply sold out on his principles to further his political career.

The answer is number two. He's decided that being labor leader is more important than standing up for his beliefs. But I wouldn't expect anything less from the thing.

And the votes for prisoners thing is another bug bear of mine with the EU. They try to say that only a complete blanket ban is unacceptable and that if we just gave the vote back to non violent offenders serving less than three months that would be enough to meet the terms. But the though of anyone in prison getting a vote sickens me. The whole point of prison is you're being punished. You need to repay that debt before you get that privilege back. And who the hell wants prisoners as a voting block for politicians to pander to?