EU referendum June 23rd

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**Soladrin**

whembly wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
whembly wrote:
SirDonlad wrote:
just saw this...

Major leak from Brussels reveals NHS will be ‘KILLED OFF’ if Britain remains in the EU
Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online.

They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled.

The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.
The committee would meet annually and would not be guaranteed a representative from Britain.

But it would still be able to review state-run services in this country. Its duties would include checking that state services do not “distort” the market.

One section of the papers makes it clear that the EU and America would seek eventually to end all forms of state intervention in competition with the private sector.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

That's some weapons-grade scare-mongering there...

If you don't believe it, go read the papers yourself. Greenpeace leaked them.

Nations can walk away from agreements, so I find it hard to believe that the UK would allow the EU to effectively destroy a program if the populace doesn't want to...

Kind of hard to do that when the commission doesn't directly answer to the populace though..

**A Town Called Malus**

Yodhrin wrote:

1. Anyone who's been paying attention has known this for months, up here we've been howling about it to the usual total lack of regard from WM.

2. If the UK government wanted one, it could fairly easily negotiate an exception for the NHS much as other EU countries are negotiating exceptions for their state-owned industry, healthcare, and transport organisations. As far as we know the UK government have made no such attempt.

3. France, as far as we know, is planning to refuse to accede to the treaty, meaning TTIP is functionally dead for the moment as it requires unanimity.

4. And lastly, using this to bash the EU and big up Brexit is frankly hilarious, given that by the definition of the WHO the UK(ie England & Wales, up here ours is public and will stay that way ta very much) already doesn't have an NHS any more because of the rampant privatisation and marketisation of the last thirty years, which the current government has only accelerated - are we meant to believe our friendly local Tory government is suddenly, once freed of the onerous shackles of EU regulation that don't mandate any of the actions they've taken re the NHS so far, are suddenly going to volte face?

I think it's rather more likely that they'll carry right on privatising away entirely of their own accord, then rush out to sign TTIP anyway because they'll be desperate to shore up their international cred in the face of a justifiably obstinate EU negotiating team.

This. If you want someone to fight for the NHS then the Tories and UKIP are not who you're looking for.

**SirDonlad**

By the looks of things it wouldn't matter how much we disliked it, it's legally binding and even if we managed to shoo away the vultures one year, they'll be right back again next year for another go.

And we don't get a say in it.

And the decisions were made in secret.

Again.

I trust these people about as far a i can kick their parliamentary buildings.

**Compel**

*Has a quick google.*

It looks like a group of local people have already sent in a petition/protest to my local MP about TTIP and have had meetings with him about it and related matters.

So, um, yeah. I can't find what's happened as a result of that but, yeah... Kinda feels like that's what's supposed to happen to me...

**Future War Cultist**

Anjem Choudary is for Remaing

Get me the hell out of the EU.

**MarsNZ**

Future War Cultist wrote:
Anjem Choudary is for Remaing

Get me the hell out of the EU.

Yah close our borders keep out these damn immigants!

Then you realise the radical cleric was born in London...

**Future War Cultist**

MarsNZ wrote:

Yah close our borders keep out these damn immigants!

Then you realise the radical cleric was born in London...

That not what I meant at all.

What I meant is, if he likes it, then it's definitely not for me.

**MarsNZ**

You would risk the future of your entire country because it's the opposite of what someone you don't like wants?

That seems like a terrible reason, but not the worst I've heard.

**richred_uk**

Future War Cultist wrote:
MarsNZ wrote:

Yah close our borders keep out these damn immigants!

Then you realise the radical cleric was born in London...

That not what I meant at all.

What I meant is, if he likes it, then it's definitely not for me.

He also likes breathing, eating and drinking. Let me know how that goes for you.

**Kilkrazy**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
SInce when did our Governments ever care about what we want?

Are you going to vote?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SirDonlad wrote:
By the looks of things it wouldn't matter how much we disliked it, it's legally binding and even if we managed to shoo away the vultures one year, they'll be right back again next year for another go.

And we don't get a say in it.

And the decisions were made in secret.

Again.

I trust these people about as far a i can kick their parliamentary buildings.

Once you've left the EU, what international trade agreements are you going to join?

**Skullhammer**

Who knows.

The only thing for sure will be it is a UK goverment that would arrange it and not the 'eu' trade commisioner (does anyone actually know they are without google) who we dont elect and who dosent have our intrests at heart.

**Kilkrazy**

The first one will be the EU trade agreement.

The second probably will be TTIP.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

The WTO, for one

MarsNZ wrote:
You would risk the future of your entire country because it's the opposite of what someone you don't like wants?

That seems like a terrible reason, but not the worst I've heard.

You know full well he's not basing his decision on that so drop the straw man.

**reds8n**

https://twitter.com/sgardner/status/745291047790534656

Gove is becoming something of a liability.

Given his overall performance in Govt. I guess that's no surprise.

https://fullfact.org/europe/does-ttip-mean-privatisation-nhs/

The European Commission has said that it will include "tried and tested" provisions in TTIP that will ensure governments have freedom to organise their health services how they wish.

First, it wants the deal to include an exception for services provided "in the exercise of governmental authority".

The Commission also points to the statement that “public utilities”—including health services—can be provided by a state monopoly or can be limited to a certain number of private providers.

More specifically, it wants the agreement to say that EU countries reserve the right to exclude foreign companies from "health services which receive public funding or State support in any form and are therefore not considered to be privately funded".

And the Commission wants to include a statement that investment protection doesn’t affect the right of governments to pursue “legitimate policy objectives such as... public health”.

All these wordings are intended to allow EU governments to keep their health services public, or nationalise them in future.

The EU trade commissioner has written to the government saying that “there is no reason to fear either for the NHS as it stands today or for changes to the NHS in future, as a result of TTIP”.

In March 2015, EU and US negotiators released a joint statement saying that "US and EU trade agreements do not prevent governments... from providing or supporting services" in areas including health, and don't force the privatisation of public services.

Frankly -- bearing in mind the govt. provided healthcare in mainland Europe here -- the NHS is under more threat from the Tories than the EU.

.. That said TTIp is a pretty awful piece of legislation.

Oh yes :

http://www.ukipdaily.com/assassination-jo-cox-mp/

UKIP go full Infowars.

... christ almighty ..

But they're just asking questions.. or something.

**Herzlos**

SirDonlad wrote:
just saw this...

Major leak from Brussels reveals NHS will be ‘KILLED OFF’ if Britain remains in the EU
Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online.

They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled.

The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.
The committee would meet annually and would not be guaranteed a representative from Britain.

But it would still be able to review state-run services in this country. Its duties would include checking that state services do not “distort” the market.

One section of the papers makes it clear that the EU and America would seek eventually to end all forms of state intervention in competition with the private sector.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

The NHS is dead if the tories have their way anyway. Plus who says we won't have TTIP forced on us if we leave anyway? I mean, it's pretty much a US driven thing to aid US businesses, so what's to stop the US demanding we comply with the whole thing in order to get a good trade deal? We'd be entering negotiations with an awful lot less bargaining power if we leave.

If we remain in the EU, we still have the ability to shape the TTIP deal (which we don't seem interested in) and are in a better position to decline any parts of it we don't like (which, unfortunately, we won't do, because the tories have a vested interest in killing the NHS anyway).

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

If we leave, we will be better able to vote in a new government that opposes it. That's the only thing that will ultimately protect us TTIP. The EU - even if France vetoed it, the EU will get its way eventually. The EU always gets what it wants sooner or later.

**Baragash**

Maybe if the Commission/EU refused to negotiate TTIP in dark rooms where no one can see, it would be easier to sell that kind of argument?

**reds8n**

I did find this quite funny :

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1283672/brexiteers-swiftly-closing-in-on-remain-as-eu-referendum-poll-reveals-theres-just-one-point-between-the-two-sides/

We also asked voters how much economic pain they were prepared to suffer to break free of Brussels control.

In a contradictory finding, three in five Brits – 61% – say that they would be willing to accept a short term economic slowdown in order to see EU immigration controls tightened, which Brexit would allow.

But a significant majority of more than two thirds – 68% – at the same time insist they are not willing to lose any cash at all personally to reduce the number of migrants coming in from Europe.

ah Britain, don't ever change

**Pete Melvin**

reds8n wrote:
I did find this quite funny :

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1283672/brexiteers-swiftly-closing-in-on-remain-as-eu-referendum-poll-reveals-theres-just-one-point-between-the-two-sides/

We also asked voters how much economic pain they were prepared to suffer to break free of Brussels control.

In a contradictory finding, three in five Brits – 61% – say that they would be willing to accept a short term economic slowdown in order to see EU immigration controls tightened, which Brexit would allow.

But a significant majority of more than two thirds – 68% – at the same time insist they are not willing to lose any cash at all personally to reduce the number of migrants coming in from Europe.

ah Britain, don't ever change

These would probably be the same people who thought we should intervene in Syria but that they ALSO thought would also make the world a more dangerous place ie lunatics.

The idea that people who think in that twisty, illogical manner are about to vote on something that will have such a massive impact on everyone's future genuinely terrifies me.

**Ketara**

Blimey, this thread's ratcheted up to Alarm Level: Hysterical in the few days I've been away.

Keep it urbane and factual gents. People have differences of opinion on things, and that doesn't necessarily make them racists, sheeple, illogical, traitors, or any derivation of the above. Whatever happens? We'll (as a nation) be alright in the long term, of that I'm reasonably certain.

**Herzlos**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If we leave, we will be better able to vote in a new government that opposes it. That's the only thing that will ultimately protect us TTIP. The EU - even if France vetoed it, the EU will get its way eventually. The EU always gets what it wants sooner or later.

How does being in the EU have any bearing on how we vote in our own government? We'd also need to get a government in that will actually oppose TTIP (I've seen no indication that the Tories will, and I doubt Labour will). At least as part of the EU, we've got some weight behind opposing it, and since we've got the ability to veto or ignore all sorts of things in the EU, it's no more binding on us as part of the EU as if we were independent.

**zedmeister**

Another article for the pile.

This time, a more left wing case for Leave and a whole new set of arguments (that I've not seen anyway) on why Leave is a good idea:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/22/andrews_three_fabulous_reasons_to_leave/

Worth a read and some of the points made are worth consideration. Some highlights:

But being virtuous means shutting everyone else up. Manifest in PC, this can cause real harm - as was evident in the abuse scandals in Rotherham, Oxford and Rochdale, and several other towns, which saw fathers arrested as they attempted to rescue their daughters. Years elapsed after warnings before the perpetrators were arrested, and the victims run into the tens of thousands. It should be everyone's concern that the fascist far right can now present themselves as "defenders of the community". How did the Hell did we ever let them have a sniff of the moral high ground?

We've heard a lot about "divisiveness" for the past few days – about how we need to pull together in unity. Awful "genies have been released from bottles", and need to be stuffed back in. For me, this is not only hypocritical, it merely kicks the can a few yards down the road. And it creates more fertile ground for fascists.

That's my three reasons: reboot British political culture, reboot Europe, and stop a completely avoidable self-mutilation. All seem worth a temporary period of air turbulence. The Left could return to its roots and rebuild its working class base in communities, rather than sneering at the plebs and helping grow the far right. The UK could rebuild a new, more fit-for-purpose network of European institutions.

In one of his most famous essays, George Orwell identified "the frightful inferiority complex of the English intellectual," forever embarrassed to be British – and I think this is behind much of the desire to "be at the heart of Europe". This self-flagellation (I think it's a public school thing) permeates the Remain campaign's negativity.

**Kilkrazy**

Fascism is nothing to do with the EU.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Zedmeister, you're setting an absurdly low bar for what you consider to be far right fascism. UKIP is fascist? Really?

. At best they're Right Wing, not Far Right.

Britain First and the BNP are far right, not UKIP.

**zedmeister**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Snippety snip

Yes, you are right. In my haste, I went overboard. My intention wasn't to conflate one with the other, but it ended up sounding that way. I've withdrawn my statement...

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

zedmeister wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Snippety snip

Yes, you are right. In my haste, I went overboard. My intention wasn't to conflate one with the other, but it ended up sounding that way. I've withdrawn my statement...

Thankyou.

In any case, I agree with your point. The rise of UKIP (and other parties that are actually far right fascists) is down to the failure of mainstream parties and governments to deal with the issues plaguing Europe now, and more specifically, the tendency to denounce anyone and everyone concerned about these things as racist fascists. People aren't voting for these parties because they're all inherently racist. They're voting for them because they feel betrayed and abandoned by the mainstream and believe they have no other choice. That's how the Weimar Republic fell.

There's no better way to drive people into the arms of extremists.

**Kilkrazy**

That is true, and the same pattern can be seen in Russia and the USA. It's caused by economic and social distress.

**Goliath**

That's not the only reason though.

We had a recession which, 8 years later, we are still barely recovering from due to economic policy, and there's a lot of anger about that which is being partially directed towards immigrants and immigration through widespread media vilification of them.

Yes, disenfranchisement is one of the causes, but it is by no means the only one.

Do you think there would have been a referendum if newspapers hadn't only ever reported the outrageous stories about the EU? There wouldn't be anywhere near as much anger if headlines had read "EU votes on regulation regarding charging cable standardisation" rather than the standard "EU overrides British Court to prevent Hero Father from giving justice to Paedo" type headlines we've been getting?

There's a load of bits which have prompted the rise of this right-wing hatred of the EU, and a fair chunk of them were intentional manipulations by certain media groups.

**Pete Melvin**

Personally I'd vote for anyone that seemed to have a decent plan for the future of the UK and who actually represented the interests of the people, but no party does that at the moment (for me anyway, YMMV)
Both sides of the EU referendum make me sick to my stomach frankly. If its not leave boogieman bullgak, its remain boogieman bullgak. I'll be glad when its over tomorrow, if indeed it is over. I only hope one side wins convincingly and it doesn't drag on forever.

**Hivefleet Oblivion**

zedmeister wrote:
Another article for the pile.

This time, a more left wing case for Leave and a whole new set of arguments (that I've not seen anyway) on why Leave is a good idea:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/22/andrews_three_fabulous_reasons_to_leave/

Worth a read and some of the points made are worth consideration.

Agreed. They are all worth consideration. Many of us have thought about these points, but have come to the conclusion that most left-wingers have made (which is why Labour Leave is financed by Tory donors):

"If Britain votes Brexit, then Johnson and Gove stand ready to seize control of the Tory party and turn Britain into a neoliberal fantasy island. They will have two years in which to shape the post-Brexit economy. Worse, the Tories will be free to use the sudden disappearance of our rights as EU citizens to reshape the UK’s de facto constitution. The man who destroyed state control of education and the man who shovelled acres of free land into the hands of London developers will get to determine the new balance of power between the citizen and the state. So even for those who support the leftwing case for Brexit, it is sensible to argue: not now."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory