Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Within the current British system as it has changed over the years it's arguable whether the government is democratically elected. The PM is not elected. The ruling party can be elected by 36% of the votes cast (only 24% of possible electors, if stay-at-homes are included).

.... .... ....

the British people can change any of this at any time. Society gets the democracy it deserves...

I was reading about the reform acts and the Chartist movement. British people have a history of changing things when they're in the mood...

We pissed away a good chance in the Proportional Representation referendum a few years ago.

The question was too specific. It should have been whether to develop a PR system, not specifically AV. There are lots of ways it could be done.

The Alternative Vote is not Proportional Representation.

Nick Clegg lost that referendum because the electorate did not like the solution offered, not because they oppose electoral reform altogether.

If England is going down its taking Wales and Scotland with it.


Oh well, I've always fancied playing a real life version of fallout.

I'm not so sure Scotland will leave. Especially with oil the price it is and the EU possibly collapsing by the end of the decade. But it is a concern.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Within the current British system as it has changed over the years it's arguable whether the government is democratically elected. The PM is not elected. The ruling party can be elected by 36% of the votes cast (only 24% of possible electors, if stay-at-homes are included).

.... .... ....

the British people can change any of this at any time. Society gets the democracy it deserves...

I was reading about the reform acts and the Chartist movement. British people have a history of changing things when they're in the mood...

We pissed away a good chance in the Proportional Representation referendum a few years ago.

The question was too specific. It should have been whether to develop a PR system, not specifically AV. There are lots of ways it could be done.

The Alternative Vote is not Proportional Representation.

Nick Clegg lost that referendum because the electorate did not like the solution offered, not because they oppose electoral reform altogether.

That is exactly my point. It should have been a more open question to allow the public to indicate their desire for a move away from the FPTP system. But the referendum was set up as a simple choice:

1. The status quo.
2. An unappealing alternative.

This is a standard tactic when a government feels forced into a referendum on a topic it doesn't want to tackle.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm not so sure Scotland will leave. Especially with oil the price it is and the EU possibly collapsing by the end of the decade. But it is a concern.

If we get a Leave vote, and (I suspect) most of Scotland votes for Remain, then I can easily see another Indyref. Sturgeon has already talked about doing so, and talked about trying to make a deal directly with the EU in the mean time.

Bear in mind that the last indyref was lost 55:45, due to a lot of fearmongering which has been proved to be hypocritical. Polls shortly afterwards indicated that if they'd re-run it a few weeks later it'd have gone the other way (due to the number of Remain voters changing their mind). I can really see it happening this time, as the English government has shafted Scotland (and, to be fair, England and Wales) pretty badly since then, and Scotland still holds largely opposing views on pretty much everything.

I have spoken to a lot of Scots friends recently who voted to stay in the Union - but would definitely want out in the event of a Leave verdict.

It would be a catastrophic mess.

If we do vote Leave, I want independence for London, too.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
If we do vote Leave, I want independence for London, too.

I think you'd find a lot of support for that proposal

Oh god, the AV referendum. Lots of misinformation, some Australian friends angrily said at the time; but the proposed change was both so minor and so unhelpful (it didn't solve any of the problems that the referendum was called to address...) that I couldn't vote for it. At least FPTP works, even if the results are wonky; the end result of it is a strong government, which is a useful thing. AV seemed to be basically the same thing, but giving slightly less strong governments; what use is that? It seemed like a great way to merely undermine the one good thing about our current system.

I'm amazed that the Lib Dems didn't try to push for adopting the Scottish Parliament system. (In short - FPTP-style constituency MSPs sit side-by-side with PR-style list MSPs, giving a chamber with both constituencies and proportionality.) That could surely have been an easier sell, and you could have tried to swing it into also reforming the House of Lords at the same moment (i.e. make the PR guys the Lords) for 10x combo points.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
I have spoken to a lot of Scots friends recently who voted to stay in the Union - but would definitely want out in the event of a Leave verdict.

It would be a catastrophic mess.

If we do vote Leave, I want independence for London, too.

Because where London treads the rest don't follow anyway?

Except men wearing dresses, Scotland got the jump on everyone there.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
I have spoken to a lot of Scots friends recently who voted to stay in the Union - but would definitely want out in the event of a Leave verdict.

I'd chose the EU over UK any day.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Oh god, the AV referendum. Lots of misinformation, some Australian friends angrily said at the time; but the proposed change was both so minor and so unhelpful (it didn't solve any of the problems that the referendum was called to address...) that I couldn't vote for it. At least FPTP works, even if the results are wonky; the end result of it is a strong government, which is a useful thing. AV seemed to be basically the same thing, but giving slightly less strong governments; what use is that? It seemed like a great way to merely undermine the one good thing about our current system.

I'm amazed that the Lib Dems didn't try to push for adopting the Scottish Parliament system. (In short - FPTP-style constituency MSPs sit side-by-side with PR-style list MSPs, giving a chamber with both constituencies and proportionality.) That could surely have been an easier sell, and you could have tried to swing it into also reforming the House of Lords at the same moment (i.e. make the PR guys the Lords) for 10x combo points.

Yeah, that's one thing I do like about the Scottish Parliament - the voting system is a lot better, and a majority is still possible, but not easy.

The House of Lords could really do with being an American style Senate, with vastly reduced numbers, 7 year terms, with half being elected every 3-4 years like the American mid-terms, and some more powers to balance it against the Commons.

That could work IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
I have spoken to a lot of Scots friends recently who voted to stay in the Union - but would definitely want out in the event of a Leave verdict.

It would be a catastrophic mess.

If we do vote Leave, I want independence for London, too.

Because where London treads the rest don't follow anyway?

Except men wearing dresses, Scotland jump the jump on everyone there.

It ain't working. I refuse to take the bait

Shall we discuss football then.......

 notprop wrote:
Shall we discuss football then.......

You won't get much out of him, he's a closet England supporter. He'll be secretly draped in the George Cross later

I like this Scottish idea. If you can just readress the imbalance between the individual UK countries it could work. And do something about the House of Lords too.

Herzlos wrote:


Bear in mind that the last indyref was lost 55:45, due to a lot of fearmongering which has been proved to be hypocritical. Polls shortly afterwards indicated that if they'd re-run it a few weeks later it'd have gone the other way (due to the number of Remain voters changing their mind). I can really see it happening this time, as the English government has shafted Scotland (and, to be fair, England and Wales) pretty badly since then, and Scotland still holds largely opposing views on pretty much everything.

What an absolute nonsense this is.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Oh god, the AV referendum. Lots of misinformation, some Australian friends angrily said at the time; but the proposed change was both so minor and so unhelpful (it didn't solve any of the problems that the referendum was called to address...) that I couldn't vote for it. At least FPTP works, even if the results are wonky; the end result of it is a strong government, which is a useful thing. AV seemed to be basically the same thing, but giving slightly less strong governments; what use is that? It seemed like a great way to merely undermine the one good thing about our current system.

I'm amazed that the Lib Dems didn't try to push for adopting the Scottish Parliament system. (In short - FPTP-style constituency MSPs sit side-by-side with PR-style list MSPs, giving a chamber with both constituencies and proportionality.) That could surely have been an easier sell, and you could have tried to swing it into also reforming the House of Lords at the same moment (i.e. make the PR guys the Lords) for 10x combo points.

Japan has a similar system.

As you say, reform of the Lords could have been rolled into it. Perhaps a proportionally elected Lords with true powers to amend bills from the Commons.

It must be said though that FPTP did not produce a government in 2010 -- the coalition was a deal, not an election choice -- and did not produce a strong government in 1992 -- Major had endless trouble with his Eurosceptics. The current Conservative government is a few accidents or illnesses away from getting into that situation too.

Obviously this reflects the low number of votes for them.

I've been searching for a answer to this for weeks, but why no exit poll for a vote of this magnitude?

I'm not in the tin foil hat brigade, but I can understand people's uneasiness about this...

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
After the referendum, the next step will be to reform our own systems, so that one party doesn't get to ride rough over everything. But I don't think it's fair to rely on an unelected unaccountable body to restrain a democratically elected government.

Yup. So it's good that doesn't happen, in Europe, right? As in, elected MEPs get to vote on laws - rather than in the UK where party donors ie Lords can change laws at the last moment.

It's good, too, that in the EU any one nation can veto laws on crucial issues like defence.

Democratic oversight is wonderful. Shame, as mentioned before, it's being eliminated from the UK educational system at local level.

Also, you know, it's a little rich for a Constitutional Monarchy who's upper chamber is the second largest in the world after China's and is comprised entirely of unelected Lords to complain about democracy being undermined by unelected officials

Also, "society gets the democracy it deserves"? Bum candy. When I encounter people with totally distorted views on welfare or immigration I don't blame "society" and I don't blame them, I blame the media and politicians who have spent decades deliberately manipulating their access to information. It's fine and well to say that the actual facts are out there if you're willing to look, but the reality is most people work their arses off trying to provide for themselves and their families and expecting them to spend most of the little free time they get fact-checking the news just isn't reasonable, let alone realistic. My situation allows me to spend a few hours a week digging through original sources and reading critical analyses of media output, but most people have to rely on what they're told by the press and the press are largely lying, incompetent, partial, lazy scum working within an editorial agenda set by their rich owners, from which the BBC allows their news agenda to be set by.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm not so sure Scotland will leave. Especially with oil the price it is and the EU possibly collapsing by the end of the decade. But it is a concern.

I'm not sure either, but I doubt oil price or pessimistic forecasts about the EU will be the decider in a second indyref - the people who would switch to a Yes vote in order to remain within the EU obviously prefer an imperiled EU to an unfettered Britain, and they are likely motivated either by identity(ie, they're the near-mythical actual-ideological-internationalists as opposed to the Labour numpties using internationalism as a way to bash the SNP much as they use hypothetical multilateral disarmament as a cudgel against anti-Trident campaigners) or by EU-specific economic concerns, in which latter case oil forecasts will be less of a consideration than worry about access to the single market and on what terms.

Whether that's enough to win it? Dunno, but last time we went from about 20% support on average in polls to 45% in the final vote over the course of the campaign, and this time we'd be starting off pretty much neck & neck with the prospect of a Tory-led Brexit in the immediate future and a Labour party that seems intent on suicide - a nearly-two-year campaign(assuming Brexit runs on schedule and we do the sensible thing and target indyref 2 for a couple of months before the planned conclusion of that process) might just do it.

That's assuming we don't get the "Scotland keeps the UK in" scenario, in which case we won't need to leave the UK, England will boot us out

 alanmckenzie wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


Bear in mind that the last indyref was lost 55:45, due to a lot of fearmongering which has been proved to be hypocritical. Polls shortly afterwards indicated that if they'd re-run it a few weeks later it'd have gone the other way (due to the number of Remain voters changing their mind). I can really see it happening this time, as the English government has shafted Scotland (and, to be fair, England and Wales) pretty badly since then, and Scotland still holds largely opposing views on pretty much everything.

What an absolute nonsense this is.

...because?

That monarch and those lords have zero to little real power (they do cost a fortune though). Can't say the same for the EU Commission and its directives and regulations.

By the nature of things poll results go up and down over time. You could run the referendum every six months and might get a different result each time. That's one reason we don't govern by referendum.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
...those lords have zero to little real power (they do cost a fortune though). Can't say the same for the EU Commission and its directives and regulations.

You couldn't be more wrong.

The Lords have terrific power. I've posted before how a bill can be changed beyond recognition in the Lords.

Secondly, laws are proposed/worked on by the commission just like civil servants in the UK - and the laws have to be voted in by elected officials: "[Commission staff], as well as being appointed by the elected governments of the member states, and being subject to confirmation in their positions by the elected European Parliament, and having to report regularly to the EP – cannot make final decisions on EU law or policy. Those decisions are made by the Council of Ministers (consisting of ministers from the elected governments of the member states) and the elected EP. "

http://johnmccormick.eu/2014/05/three-of-the-most-persistent-myths-about-the-european-union/

 Kilkrazy wrote:
By the nature of things poll results go up and down over time. You could run the referendum every six months and might get a different result each time. That's one reason we don't govern by referendum.

The Swiss have more referendums than us, and they seem to be getting on fine.

The Swiss have a different system of government with a lot of power devolved to the various cantons.

Italy also has a lot of referendums.

Perhaps the UK should have a referendum about having more or fewer referendums.

Herzlos wrote:

 alanmckenzie wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


Bear in mind that the last indyref was lost 55:45, due to a lot of fearmongering which has been proved to be hypocritical. Polls shortly afterwards indicated that if they'd re-run it a few weeks later it'd have gone the other way (due to the number of Remain voters changing their mind). I can really see it happening this time, as the English government has shafted Scotland (and, to be fair, England and Wales) pretty badly since then, and Scotland still holds largely opposing views on pretty much everything.

What an absolute nonsense this is.

...because?

“Bear in mind that the last indyref was lost 55:45”
The indyref wasn’t lost.

“due to a lot of fearmongering which has been proved to be hypocritical”
Due to or in spite of? Any examples of this hypocritical fear-mongering? E.g. The privatisation of the NHS in event of No vote?..
Oh, wait.

“Polls shortly afterwards indicated that if they'd re-run it a few weeks later it'd have gone the other way (due to the number of Remain voters changing their mind).”
Ah, polls. Brilliant. http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-would-you-vote-in-the-in-the-scottish-independence-referendum-if-held-now-a#line

“I can really see it happening this time, as the English government has shafted Scotland (and, to be fair, England and Wales) pretty badly since then”
There is no such thing as the English Government.

“and Scotland still holds largely opposing views on pretty much everything”
Source? Anything at all? Nothing? No, nothing.

Please accept that your Nationalism only convinced ~37% of the electorate to support it in that “once in a generation” referendum.

Please respect the fact that this week’s referendum is a UK issue and has nothing to do with Scottish independence.

I will be voting remain on Thursday. Should the result show a Leave majority, I will respect that outcome. That is democracy. There will be no grievance from me.

I most certainly do not give permission for Nicola Sturgeon to use my vote as ammunition as she attempts to manufacture herself an excuse to embark on another horrible, divisive, toxic, indyref drive.

Back to the football….

Yeah, no, not falling for it again. Enjoy your football.

 alanmckenzie wrote:

“Bear in mind that the last indyref was lost 55:45”
The indyref wasn’t lost.

The proposal to become independent was rejected, so it (and 45% of voters) lost. I guess it's just semantics though; my point was that it was a very narrow margin and could easily swing either way.

“due to a lot of fearmongering which has been proved to be hypocritical”
Due to or in spite of? Any examples of this hypocritical fear-mongering? E.g. The privatisation of the NHS in event of No vote?..
Oh, wait.

The "Vote No to protect the NHS", quickly followed by Labour claiming "vote Labour to protect your NHS", the promises of more powers for Scotland. I can't remember details but there were a few claims made in the last few days that came across as desperate scaremongering.

“Polls shortly afterwards indicated that if they'd re-run it a few weeks later it'd have gone the other way (due to the number of Remain voters changing their mind).”
Ah, polls. Brilliant. http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-would-you-vote-in-the-in-the-scottish-independence-referendum-if-held-now-a#line

I guess polls can say anything. I don't have a citation that contradicts you.

“I can really see it happening this time, as the English government has shafted Scotland (and, to be fair, England and Wales) pretty badly since then”
There is no such thing as the English Government.

The Westminster goverment may as well be the English government, or possible even the London government as it doesn't give them impression of being aware that much outside of London actually exists. You knew what I meant though.

“and Scotland still holds largely opposing views on pretty much everything”
Source? Anything at all? Nothing? No, nothing.

Take the last general election, where Scotland almost exclusively voted SNP (very left), whilst England voted further right (Tory). Pre-SNP Scotland was always very much labour. Scotland has historically always been more left/liberal than England.
Scotland favours immigration, subsidized education and health care, England opposes.

Obviously I'm talking in generalizations, from my own POV (I'm quite the lefty) but politically England and Scotland seem to be pretty distinct anyway.

Please accept that your Nationalism only convinced ~37% of the electorate to support it in that “once in a generation” referendum.

Oh I know.

Please respect the fact that this week’s referendum is a UK issue and has nothing to do with Scottish independence.

I will be voting remain on Thursday. Should the result show a Leave majority, I will respect that outcome. That is democracy. There will be no grievance from me.

I most certainly do not give permission for Nicola Sturgeon to use my vote as ammunition as she attempts to manufacture herself an excuse to embark on another horrible, divisive, toxic, indyref drive.

Back to the football….

I'm not meaning to derail the thread, but what happens in Scotland post-Leave is somewhat relevant - especially if they do go back to the EU. A collegue of mine was apparently told a contingency plan from some London financial types, which was to hope that Scotland rejoins the EU and they relocate up there. Scotland remaining in the EU would drive a lot of import/export businesses over the border to get around all of the additional red tape and insecurity, really throwing a spanner in the works.

Fair enough, I've no interest in digging all this up again.

However, if you'd allow me to take a bit of an issue with this bit....

Take the last general election, where Scotland almost exclusively voted SNP (very left), whilst England voted further right (Tory). Pre-SNP Scotland was always very much labour. Scotland has historically always been more left/liberal than England.
Scotland favours immigration, subsidized education and health care, England opposes.

The SNP are miles away from "very left". Nowhere near left, never have been. They have no left or right. Populist Nationalist only. And while Scotland elected almost exclusively SNP mps in the GE, we certainly didn't vote exclusively SNP (check the numbers). Again, that's democracy unfortunately.

Also, before Scotland generally voted Labour, we generally voted Tory.

Your other assertions about widely differing social attitudes between Scotland and the rest of the UK (or England) are totally baseless. We Scots have no inherent political leanings and no inherent superiority. Moral or otherwise.

Anyway, have a nice evening.

Final polling shows a narrow Leave lead, which statistically means it's neck and neck, margin of error and all that

Tomorrow should be fun...

As long as it's well behaved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who would deliver the victory speech if it is Leave?