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Best to get a full idea of the situation i suppose but i'm sure propaganda is going to come out of both sides.

It effects brits the most and they should take care of it in their fashion.

From what i heard it still sounds like the EU has done some really crappy things.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm just curious about all the details. It seems to effect europeans and the british the most. I'm sure it'll effect the USA too but this seems to be a much bigger deal for all of you.

Why Remain and why Leave? What are the pros and cons for both? I'm curious to hear but something tells me it's been answered earlier in this thread somewhere. If i could get a rundown of all the best points for both i'd be happy.

I'm not British, so maybe I shouldn't speak, but:

Pro:
- as a member of the Union, you can be a student in every other country of the Union, it is called "Erasmus". If I wish, I can study in Germany, for 0€ more than in France (just the housing, etc).
- as a member of the Union, I can go through every country, travel as I want.
- as a member of the Union, I pay no tax (the "no border" thing and the 0 tax thing.are particulary handy for the firms)
- as a member of the Union I can work in every other country of the Union.


Cons:
- there is no border (there are no borders ? ) , so you can't arrest illegal immigrants / terrorists
- you are in competition with A LOT MORE people for jobs,housings, etc...
- as a wealthy country, UK give a lot of money to the Union, money used to develop the less developed countries of the Union.
- Brussels governs the Union, and the Union gorverns every country: your country isn't sovereign anymore
(and it is even worth for France, we haven't even our own money, so no more Monetary Policy).

I tried to summarize what I have in mind for the moment.

Just saw Nigel pull a "Bill Pulman"

“Let June 23rd go down in our history as our Independence Day!”

o.O

I am not extremely glad that I put in a couple of ebay orders with US retailers early yesterday morning, since the pound is now down to $1.35 o_0

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm just curious about all the details. It seems to effect europeans and the british the most. I'm sure it'll effect the USA too but this seems to be a much bigger deal for all of you.

Why Remain and why Leave? What are the pros and cons for both? I'm curious to hear but something tells me it's been answered earlier in this thread somewhere. If i could get a rundown of all the best points for both i'd be happy.

As far as I can tell, a lot of the less extreme remainers believe in the ability of the UK to spearhead change and influence reform in the EU from inside, and leave at a later date if that is unsuccessful; the less extreme leavers believe that the EU is too stubborn and resistant to change for that to occur, and there is no guarantee that we will get another chance to leave on our own terms before the EU starts to form the superstate it's aiming to become.

I can see the merit of both, and my decision was really rather difficult, as I flipped undecided between both before eventually deciding that I believe the EU to be more resistant than the UK would be able to handle, and we'd end up either fully integrating into a state I don't feel would benefit anyone in its current form, or being kicked out on the EU's terms, not our own, and being left worse off than leaving of our own will. I don't think it'll be easy, or simple, but I believe that we stand a better chance this way. Due to my close feelings either way, though, I'm not averse to attempting the reform remainers want should the country vote to stay. Hell, the only other thing to do would be to sit around and winge about it, which doesn't get anyone anywhere but seems to be what a lot of people are intent on doing should the opposite side to them win.

Of course, as Ketara said, these arguments are often conveniently ignored by many people in order to peddle idiotic rhetoric instead.

Is it kinda messed up Brussels governs the EU? Wouldn't that give them a ridiculous amount of power?

When I said Brussels, in fact, it is the Parliament, which resides in Brussels. But in France everyone just says "Brussels".
There is a lot of people not elected having some power in the Union, and this upsets people.

It's like saying Washington DC controls America.

It doesn't actually, but all the government is based there.

Oh for the love of...

Farage is in full triumphalist gakwomble mode and just actually said, in front of cameras and people and everything, "We'll have done this without a single shot being fired..."

Up yours you animated fething Toby Jug, right up yours.

EDIT: And for a slightly less offensive but still moronic follow up: Scotland's only resident UKipper, David "Jabba the Hutt" Coburn MEP, was just asked by a journo if he was worried about the pound tanking, to which he replied no, his salary is paid in Euros....

This is reminding me a lot of the Obama vs Romney election. Obama won the popular vote by the smallest margin but our weird as **** electoral system had obama with most of the electoral votes. Given how stupid that system is and how deciding of a factor it is it should be gotten rid of just in general. I mean i heard Bush Jr. got in via electoral and not popular. It's really just a stupid system. However i'm getting a bit off topic.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Is it kinda messed up Brussels governs the EU? Wouldn't that give them a ridiculous amount of power?

This was a point of contention and a lot of newspapers reported that Cameron was trying to 'claw back' power from Brussels.

It also depends on what subject your talking about. Brussels has more power over UK fishing industries than it does for the NHS for example.

If its a Remain maybe we'll finally be shot of Farage.

Unlikely.

Hmn, and if it does come down to the wire, a little bit of electoral fraud can push it over in a smidge.

Oh, and bonus points for the parallel arguments re: autonomy between this and Scottish independence.

I had a conversation with the father-in-law a while back about this and a possible reason for the demographic on the age vote.

His generation was the ones who voted to join the common market as it was then known back in the day, and since that day, the common market has transformed into the present day EU with no consultation to the people who voted to join in the first place. Perhaps, and this is me trying to put 2 and 2 together, it may be the older voter is trying to undo a mistake they feel they made 40 years ago?

More than 2/3's in and the remain lead has acquired another 100,000 votes. Bar some major upset, it looks like Britain is about to exit the EU.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Oh for the love of...

Farage is in full triumphalist gakwomble mode and just actually said, in front of cameras and people and everything, "We'll have done this without a single shot being fired..."

Up yours you animated fething Toby Jug, right up yours.

Sadly Farage has gathered a huge amount of support because he's connected with the main issue that the Leave voters are concerned about.

He's vile though. Utterly vile, along with his party.

One of my main concerns about leaving is the amount of work that will need doing to patch us up, new laws, trade deals, careful diplomacy etc. Unfortunately, keeping UKIP out in the next GE also falls under this, but the Tories also need to be turfed out, and Labour are in no fit state to rule. Difficult, but nothing worth doing is ever easy.

 AndrewC wrote:
I had a conversation with the father-in-law a while back about this and a possible reason for the demographic on the age vote.

His generation was the ones who voted to join the common market as it was then known back in the day, and since that day, the common market has transformed into the present day EU with no consultation to the people who voted to join in the first place. Perhaps, and this is me trying to put 2 and 2 together, it may be the older voter is trying to undo a mistake they feel they made 40 years ago?

I think that, combined with a memory of Britain being alright on it's own. To the younger generation, privileges like backpacking Europe with no visa issues are like the NHS and 8 hour work days; they take them for granted without understanding how they got there.

 AndrewC wrote:
I had a conversation with the father-in-law a while back about this and a possible reason for the demographic on the age vote.

His generation was the ones who voted to join the common market as it was then known back in the day, and since that day, the common market has transformed into the present day EU with no consultation to the people who voted to join in the first place. Perhaps, and this is me trying to put 2 and 2 together, it may be the older voter is trying to undo a mistake they feel they made 40 years ago?

Sometimes we see our elders as racist bigots with not as good of an education but they have experience often and sometimes that's worth more than what you're taught in school (as that can be somebody pushing views on you whereas experience is just what you've seen yourself). Perhaps they know how the EU is and has been.

 Ketara wrote:
More than 2/3's in and the remain lead has acquired another 100,000 votes. Bar some major upset, it looks like Britain is about to exit the EU.

Aye...

I mean, as a red-neck 'Murrian, I'm happy that the UK regained its sovereignty... but a bit mystified at what seems to be panic selling in the markets.

Christ, remain just collected another 100,000 lead, taking them to 700,000 ahead. This is looking more and more certain. At best, remain might be able to wipe out the advantage, I don't see them taking more than 50% now.

EDIT: Make that 750,000 ahead.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
I had a conversation with the father-in-law a while back about this and a possible reason for the demographic on the age vote.

His generation was the ones who voted to join the common market as it was then known back in the day, and since that day, the common market has transformed into the present day EU with no consultation to the people who voted to join in the first place. Perhaps, and this is me trying to put 2 and 2 together, it may be the older voter is trying to undo a mistake they feel they made 40 years ago?

Sometimes we see our elders as racist bigots with not as good of an education but they have experience often and sometimes that's worth more than what you're taught in school (as that can be somebody pushing views on you whereas experience is just what you've seen yourself). Perhaps they know how the EU is and has been.

Alternatively, they've lived their lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now screwing the younger generation out of them just like they've done with housing and pensions.

As it seems you will leave us, I hope and wish the EU won't "punish" you, just to discourage others to do the same.
But I think they will.

Leave up 700k with about 10m left to count. Remain would need to take 57% of the vote to bring it back in. Pretty tough road.

 whembly wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
More than 2/3's in and the remain lead has acquired another 100,000 votes. Bar some major upset, it looks like Britain is about to exit the EU.

Aye...

I mean, as a red-neck 'Murrian, I'm happy that the UK regained its sovereignty... but a bit mystified at what seems to be panic selling in the markets.

Stock markets being stock markets. Someone predicted that a Leave vote would have economic impacts, and being the self-fulfilling prophecy that the market is, it came true.

Of course, this isn't the fault of either side, as much as some people may wish that. A LOT of voters seem to be forgetting that, had Cameron not called this stupid referendum in the first place, we'd not be in the clusterfeth we are now. On the ground neighbours are tearing into each other like animals, whilst the man who started it all off is sipping expensive brandy and watching the great unwashed splinter.

Triple9 wrote:
Leave up 700k with about 10m left to count. Remain would need to take 57% of the vote to bring it back in. Pretty tough road.

Judging by the fact Scotland is spent and the results so far, we're out. Life just got very, very interesting. I can't wait to see the papers. There's no way remain is going to pull any kind of substantial majority anymore.

 godardc wrote:
As it seems you will leave us, I hope and wish the EU won't "punish" you, just to discourage others to do the same.
But I think they will.

Hey, it's alright. The EU will do what we all knew it was going to do which is negotiate trade deals with us which are beneficial to them and people will claim that they are "punishing" us rather than just doing what they're meant to do.

It should be a Law about the self-fulfilling prophecy: no one allowed to speak about stock market during a referendum !

Jeebus jumpin Jehoshaphat, Birmingham have gone Leave. Game over man, game over...

I'll need to filch this old guy out of the loft to sleep with tonight. :(

 Wyrmalla wrote:
I'll need to filch this old guy out of the loft to sleep with tonight. :(

I wouldn't, you'll wake up surrounded by more of them.

Bloody immigrants!