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 welshhoppo wrote:
I said it because I've seen a lot of people crying over the fact that "old people are deciding the fate of our nation and they will be dead soon." If you are that concerned about old people ruining your life, you need to head out and vote yourself.

This just reeks of trying to find someone to blame.


Also, has anyone else seen the petition for a second referendum? I thought it was complete bollocks.

You know, it's weird, I could have sworn that all the people I know voted, guess they should have gone out and voted!

It's also weird that 16-17 year olds weren't allowed to vote; guess they should have just gone out and voted if they were concerned!

 Kilkrazy wrote:

jouso wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:


Seems leave mobilised support better?

Indeed.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/brexit-follows-close-run-campaign/

Higher participation than expected on pro-Brexit vs lower in the remain camp.

Perhaps remain proponents were calmed by polls forecasting they were up.

Voter turnout in London was 2% lower than the rest of the country, possibly due to very bad weather with serious storms and localised flooding.

(Source = The Evening Standard.)

Better weather wouldn't have changed the final result but it would have made the margin closer, since Londoners voted by a wide margin to Remain.

I managed to vote in the evening despite my normal 1.5hrs total daily commute from Hillingdon to Camden taking 3.5 hours instead, IMO it's more people not making the extra effort than because the weather actually stopped them.

Well, once again, this small island in the North Atlantic has changed history...for better or for worse? Time will tell.

When I crashed out, I honestly thought Remain would win narrowly, but here we are. I voted leave, I got what I wanted. I'm happy we left, but I'm not gloating or being triumphant, because that would be disrespectful to those who voted Remain.

The country needs to take a step back, calmly plan its next move, and have everybody pull together to get the best deal possible.

First things first though. We need to stop those damn Yankees snapping up cheap forge world stuff!

Just been off the phone to my mother who voted Leave, that's been the toughest phone conversation I've ever had. Came close to crying.

It's only just starting to hit me in the heart how devastating I find this.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
Gibraltar is heading for some really bad times....or perhaps rejoining Spain.

The only way that will happen is if Spain invade.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just been off the phone to my mother who voted Leave, that's been the toughest phone conversation I've ever had. Came close to crying.

It's only just starting to hit me in the heart how devastating I find this.

This feeling has been echoed by a lot of my British coworkers over here, even before the 23rd.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
Gibraltar is heading for some really bad times....or perhaps rejoining Spain.

The only way that will happen is if Spain invade.

Or they just confiscate everyone's smokes as they try to sneak them through and avoid the new import tariffs which will soon be coming

Then they've got Gibraltar by the lungs.

Spain and the UK are both part of NATO, so that isn't going to happen.


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 Baragash wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

jouso wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:


Seems leave mobilised support better?

Indeed.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/brexit-follows-close-run-campaign/

Higher participation than expected on pro-Brexit vs lower in the remain camp.

Perhaps remain proponents were calmed by polls forecasting they were up.

Voter turnout in London was 2% lower than the rest of the country, possibly due to very bad weather with serious storms and localised flooding.

(Source = The Evening Standard.)

Better weather wouldn't have changed the final result but it would have made the margin closer, since Londoners voted by a wide margin to Remain.

I managed to vote in the evening despite my normal 1.5hrs total daily commute from Hillingdon to Camden taking 3.5 hours instead, IMO it's more people not making the extra effort than because the weather actually stopped them.

You are one of the people who goes out of their way to achieve their democratic right and duty. Nonetheless, it is a known fact that bad weather pushes participation rates down, because as you say people don't want to make the extra effort.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
Gibraltar is heading for some really bad times....or perhaps rejoining Spain.

The only way that will happen is if Spain invade.

Or they just confiscate everyone's smokes as they try to sneak them through and avoid the new import tariffs which will soon be coming

Then they've got Gibraltar by the lungs.

It's rather the other way around.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/11/eu-crackdown-tobacco-smuggling-spain-gibraltar

kb_lock wrote:
Without fear mongering, did we just watch the death of Britain?

Scotland wanted to stay in the eu, which is why they stayed in gb, that would absolutely be cause for a new referendum for them.

That is a given that the SNP will demand another referendum. Westminster can point to the last one and say this is a once a generation event.
You cant change government 'mid term', just because you dont like policy changes.

It will be a minefield though.

kb_lock wrote:

Scotland leaves, union jack changes.

The rUK will keep the same flag.

kb_lock wrote:

Australia/new Zealand need new flags, take the opportunity to vote for a republic?

Not really as Aus is based on orgina from the old UK not the current UK.
New Zealand might chanfge is flag anyway.
Besides the UK flag wont change, it would be a pointless waste of time and money as a lot would have to change in accompaniment..

Precedent: The Royal banner still had Fleur De Lys on it based on ancestral claims to French territory long after the loss of Calais.

Doesn't bother me, but God damn in going to spend up a storm on fw soon

So long, and thanks for all the fish, UK.

(Very depressed here, hit me harder than I expected. Worried about my friends and family who are likely to be impacted)

 Orlanth wrote:

kb_lock wrote:
Without fear mongering, did we just watch the death of Britain?

Scotland wanted to stay in the eu, which is why they stayed in gb, that would absolutely be cause for a new referendum for them.

That is a given that the SNP will demand another referendum. Westminster can point to the last one and say this is a once a generation event.
You cant change government 'mid term', just because you dont like policy changes.
... ....

By Cameron resigning the UK is changing government 'mid term' because we don't like the policy. There will be a new prime minister when he goes and the new PM will appoint a new cabinet.

This is one reason why I think a general election is advisable before cracking on with Brexit. It would offer Scotland the chance to make plain their desire for independence and EU membership by electing 100% SNP MPs with a good margin.

Completely surprised by the result, I honestly thought remain would win. A keep calm and carry on attitude and a measured level headed way forward is what's needed. Cameron did the decent thing and stepped down, Corbyn is being surrounded by plotters and, should Labour rediscover its core vote, UKIP should fade away.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
First things first though. We need to stop those damn Yankees snapping up cheap forge world stuff!

They better act fast, the pound is recovering

A lot of leave voters in my office are shocked about the repercussions of the leave vote with the new Scottish referendum threats and the financial implications. They have just gone by the front page of the sun or mail and thought that all that happened would be that we get rid of the immigrants.

Some were happy about the dropping in value of the pound to start with as they thought they would get more $ for each £ so were planning a shopping trip to New York. I was tempted to let them book the flights and not tell them.

 Orlanth wrote:
Westminster can point to the last one and say this is a once a generation event.

Holyrood would call one anyway, assuming that a Yes vote is likely to win, and there is little that Westminster could do to stop it. I personally suspect that there won't be a referendum called until after the next election as this will give the UK's economy time to melt down and it will also probably see yet another Tory government which will make an independent Scotland a lot more likely.

 Orlanth wrote:

The only way that will happen is if Spain invade.

Despite the massively and overwhelming support for the EU in Gibraltar they will soon be dragged out. That is bound to fundamentally change peoples viewpoints. Its not beyond the bounds of possibility that they will simply vote out of the UK, perhaps as a micronation or potentially even rejoining Spain. Either way they will be in an extremely difficult financial situation in the near future.

 Da Boss wrote:
So long, and thanks for all the fish, UK.

(Very depressed here, hit me harder than I expected. Worried about my friends and family who are likely to be impacted)

I know what's like - I felt rock bottom when the Yes side lost the Scottish independence referendum. You'll get no gloating or triumphalism from me.


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 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

kb_lock wrote:
Without fear mongering, did we just watch the death of Britain?

Scotland wanted to stay in the eu, which is why they stayed in gb, that would absolutely be cause for a new referendum for them.

That is a given that the SNP will demand another referendum. Westminster can point to the last one and say this is a once a generation event.
You cant change government 'mid term', just because you dont like policy changes.
... ....

By Cameron resigning the UK is changing government 'mid term' because we don't like the policy. There will be a new prime minister when he goes and the new PM will appoint a new cabinet.

This is one reason why I think a general election is advisable before cracking on with Brexit. It would offer Scotland the chance to make plain their desire for independence and EU membership by electing 100% SNP MPs with a good margin.

We have a list of upcoming constitutional crises the length of my arm looming on the horizon:

Good Friday agreement, Scottish Parliament bound by EU law etc etc

Under the Sewel convention, anything not reserved to Westmisnter, like fishing and farming, goes to the Scottish parliament, but if Westminster plays hardball?

Plus, what happens if the Scottish Parliament decides to resist Westminster attempts to scrap the SP being bound by EU law?

If London cracks down on Edinburgh, it only boosts Scottish independence.

Today is a terrible result for the UK.

Even with the best intentions the Leave result today has put in motion the dissolution of the UK as Scottish secession is now the likely outcome.

We're likely to see a second Scottish referendum before October when Article 50 will be submitted by the new PM. I say, good on the Scots - but this is a terrible day for the rest of us.

In many respects, the EU only has itself to blame for this.

If Cameron had been given a cast iron deal to take back to the British people, instead of wishy washy, vague promises that weren't even legally binding, that might have been enough.

The EU thought Britain was bluffing - they paid the price for this assumption.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In many respects, the EU only has itself to blame for this.

If Cameron had been given a cast iron deal to take back to the British people, instead of wishy washy, vague promises that weren't even legally binding, that might have been enough.

The EU thought Britain was bluffing - they paid the price for this assumption.

The EU has already started refering to themselves as the 27, it's internal UK politics and telling Cameron not to go forward would have been even worse for the remain camp.

It's Cameron who thought he could get away with that based on his experience on the Scottish ref.

An interesting article on the BBC and more red blooded than I was expecting.

In some respects, the vote for Brexit was a vote for English nationalism.

That's my view as well.

I wonder is David Cameron will now specify what "The Deal" was and what it consisted of, after Remain Lost....
I seriously dont trust someone referring something as "The Deal" without specifying what it is when the future of a country is at stake...

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
An interesting article on the BBC and more red blooded than I was expecting.

In some respects, the vote for Brexit was a vote for English nationalism.

That's my view as well.

I'm happy. If English nationalism is on the rise, it only speeds up the end of the UK.


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commander dante wrote:
I wonder is David Cameron will now specify what "The Deal" was and what it consisted of, after Remain Lost....
I seriously dont trust someone referring something as "The Deal" without specifying what it is when the future of a country is at stake...

Now that he's stepping down, I fully expect to see Cameron reveal the deal for the sham it was. He asked for nothing, he got half of that!

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
An interesting article on the BBC and more red blooded than I was expecting.

In some respects, the vote for Brexit was a vote for English nationalism.

That's my view as well.

I'm not a British citizen and haven't really followed this whole event too hard except recently but I thought that was the whole point? Without being rude, but wasn't English nationalism the most obvious rationale?

I don't think it's as bad as all that.

I think a fair number of Brexit voters have woken up today and, after the initial euphoria of winning, have begun to think quietly "WTF have we done?" Anyone going on holiday on the next few weeks is being hit in the wallet right now, for example.

Farage and Boris have always been anti-EU and there's no way they will change their mind but now they are in the situation of having to come up with proper plans instead of just heckling from the sidelines. I don't think they have the skills and I"m not sure that they even think they do themselves.

Boris in particular is a charming dilettante with no grip, bottom or perserverance, totally unsuitable for driving through a highly complex set of international negotiations. He resigned from his first job, management consultancy, in a week, due to boredom.

Why have Leave pressed Cameron to stay on until the autumn? He's a lame duck, he can't lead a Brexit government and most MPs currently are pro-EU. Leave know things can't go forwards in a rush. Clearly there needs to be a general election to get a government in place to carry out the Brexit procedure. This won't happen overnight, and it will expose the other fault lines around Brexit, such as Scottish independence.

Therefore I think there's a chance that over the next three months, the country's mood will change, and a general election might fail to produce a government with the ability to carry out the Brexit process.

I don't think it's ver likely but I think it's not impossible.

Aeneades wrote:
A lot of leave voters in my office are shocked about the repercussions of the leave vote with the new Scottish referendum threats and the financial implications. They have just gone by the front page of the sun or mail and thought that all that happened would be that we get rid of the immigrants.

Some were happy about the dropping in value of the pound to start with as they thought they would get more $ for each £ so were planning a shopping trip to New York. I was tempted to let them book the flights and not tell them.

Are the Irish dancing and puking in the streets yet? You may have just shifted your entire financial sector to their bonny green country.

On the positive, this could theoretically be the kick the EU needs to get its house in order. You may come out of it with more of a NAFTA situation than anything else, such that border controls an non Belgium dominance are restored, but goods and services may trade freely.

But I doubt that will happen. That would require bureaucrats to lose power.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I'm happy. If English nationalism is on the rise, it only speeds up the end of the UK.

I'm not so happy in the short term as I find English nationalism to be the bad kind of nationalism, all flag waving, exclusion and nastiness. As I currently live in England I really don't want my son to be anywhere near such things.

On the other hand I will hopefully be getting a new passport soon

My wife and I are in agreement though, our time in England is most definitely limited.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Without being rude, but wasn't English nationalism the most obvious rationale?

England is not supposed to equate to Britain although in practice that's exactly what it usually means. Its just nice to see it spelled out clearly on the BBC.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't think it's as bad as all that.

I think a fair number of Brexit voters have woken up today and, after the initial euphoria of winning, have begun to think quietly "WTF have we done?" Anyone going on holiday on the next few weeks is being hit in the wallet right now, for example.

The Boris is apparently one of them.

"Boris Johnson has said there is “no need for haste” and “nothing will change over the short-term” as he said the country should not immediately trigger Article 50 to start exit negotiations with the EU."

https://next.ft.com/content/eab50f6b-480c-36a7-b566-9d63d6bab2ea

I didn't expect cold feet this early.

 Frazzled wrote:

Aeneades wrote:
A lot of leave voters in my office are shocked about the repercussions of the leave vote with the new Scottish referendum threats and the financial implications. They have just gone by the front page of the sun or mail and thought that all that happened would be that we get rid of the immigrants.

Some were happy about the dropping in value of the pound to start with as they thought they would get more $ for each £ so were planning a shopping trip to New York. I was tempted to let them book the flights and not tell them.

Are the Irish dancing and puking in the streets yet? You may have just shifted your entire financial sector to their bonny green country.

On the positive, this could theoretically be the kick the EU needs to get its house in order. You may come out of it with more of a NAFTA situation than anything else, such that border controls an non Belgium dominance are restored, but goods and services may trade freely.

But I doubt that will happen. That would require bureaucrats to lose power.

When the French revolution started, its armies swarmed all over Europe.

Well, now we have the British revolution, and we're re-taking the colonies back!

Ready your gun and look to the Canadian border, Frazz, because millions of redcoats are coming America's way


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
An interesting article on the BBC and more red blooded than I was expecting.

In some respects, the vote for Brexit was a vote for English nationalism.

That's my view as well.

I'm not a British citizen and haven't really followed this whole event too hard except recently but I thought that was the whole point? Without being rude, but wasn't English nationalism the most obvious rationale?

England isn't really supposed to 'exist' in the UK, but when one part is 85% of the population, then that's what happens.

Could have had a federal system years ago, and a reformed Lords to go with it, but they did nothing, and here we are...

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

kb_lock wrote:
Without fear mongering, did we just watch the death of Britain?

Scotland wanted to stay in the eu, which is why they stayed in gb, that would absolutely be cause for a new referendum for them.

That is a given that the SNP will demand another referendum. Westminster can point to the last one and say this is a once a generation event.
You cant change government 'mid term', just because you dont like policy changes.
... ....

By Cameron resigning the UK is changing government 'mid term' because we don't like the policy. There will be a new prime minister when he goes and the new PM will appoint a new cabinet.

This is one reason why I think a general election is advisable before cracking on with Brexit. It would offer Scotland the chance to make plain their desire for independence and EU membership by electing 100% SNP MPs with a good margin.

Westminster FPTP elections are awful for determining the will of the people, that's the very point of referendums. At the Scottish elections we put a pro-indy majority in Holyrood using a system of proportional representation, that is who will speak for us now, and it will be through a referendum that we ourselves will speak.

Dismay seems to be quickly turning to resolve up here - even my postie greeted me this morning with a gak-eating grin and "indyref2 eh? haha"

 Bottle wrote:
Today is a terrible result for the UK.

Even with the best intentions the Leave result today has put in motion the dissolution of the UK as Scottish secession is now the likely outcome.

We're likely to see a second Scottish referendum before October when Article 50 will be submitted by the new PM. I say, good on the Scots - but this is a terrible day for the rest of us.

October is unlikely. It's more probable we'll see the Scottish Government open up lines direct to the EU to clarify everything first, then call the referendum closer to the end of the UK's negotiation period assuming they can get an assurance of rapid accession in the event of a Yes vote.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Westminster can point to the last one and say this is a once a generation event.

Holyrood would call one anyway, assuming that a Yes vote is likely to win, and there is little that Westminster could do to stop it. I personally suspect that there won't be a referendum called until after the next election as this will give the UK's economy time to melt down and it will also probably see yet another Tory government which will make an independent Scotland a lot more likely.

Big trouble is in 2014 oil was $110 a barrel, not its under $50. Scotland has massive cash investment from the Uk at the moment.
the time to call a referendum is not now, because the Eu will not want Scotland to have to bail out and Sturgeon doesnt want to have to have the Scottish people face the figures.
This is why her rhetoric differs widely from Salmond.
Sturgeon says a second referendum is 'on the table', if she is as smart as I think she is she will wait.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

The only way that will happen is if Spain invade.

Despite the massively and overwhelming support for the EU in Gibraltar they will soon be dragged out. That is bound to fundamentally change peoples viewpoints. Its not beyond the bounds of possibility that they will simply vote out of the UK, perhaps as a micronation or potentially even rejoining Spain. Either way they will be in an extremely difficult financial situation in the near future.

sorry no.

1. Gibraltar doesn't want to be be part of Spain, that overides all other consdierations and is the reason they voted remain, not a love of Brussels

2. A micronation is untenable, it will just get annexed. Gibraltarians know this and are under no illusions as to the consequences of cutting ties with the UK, even if they wanted to.