Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

...Welp, looks like it's time to go into the tinfoil hat business again *Begins furiously making tin-foil hats and selling them for mad munz*

Enough with the conspiracy theory I-know-the-truth-and-they-need-to-know-fear stuff. This is an FAQ for a game that is totally optional for a store to use outside of a handful of tournaments. Ease up, chill out, and remember it's a game. If you have nothing constructive to post (I know the truth it's a conspiracy isn't constructive, mind) then wait until they post the results and you have something to talk about.

Additionally, A lot of people are toeing the rule 1 line and they need to cool it. Or they'll be getting a warning

Yeah, sorry about that. Probably could have refrained from breaking out the tin-foil hats .

In more constructive talk, what do you guys think could be done to nerf the spider spam? I still think that a two detachment limit would help a little, but is there anything else we can do?

I don't think you can fix it without just setting a hard limit on the number you can take, like you would have to do with scatbikes by going against the codex and making them 1 in 3, or the wraithknight by adding another 100 points or so to the cost. And obviously that's not going to happen because we can't even consider something that makes such drastic changes to printed RAW like that, and takes away the Eldar's precious "flavor".

Tau "flavor" on the other hand can suck a fething egg, that gak has to go...for the greater good, apparently.

Also, pretty sure we're stuck at 3 detachments anyway since that was just voted on, so even if that did help it wouldn't matter.

Man some strong opinions here. I think FLG has done great to modify a game, and the rules of ITC be well accepted all over, the growth and spread alone shows the progress and over all acceptance of such. Like most things in life, can't please everyone, and the internet gives free reign for people to voice their opinion.

As for Wulfen units and 42" charge, someone prey tell how this is possible? Unless someone is claiming that IC's attached to Wulfen get to run and charge like the unit does.

I see 12" (calv /beast/bike/jump) move, 7+ on Wulfen roll gives another 12" move, then a 12" lucky charge. 36 max threat? Average 31", 33" with fleet. What am i missing?

Tsilber wrote:
Man some strong opinions here. I think FLG has done great to modify a game, and the rules of ITC be well accepted all over, the growth and spread alone shows the progress and over all acceptance of such. Like most things in life, can't please everyone, and the internet gives free reign for people to voice their opinion.

As for Wulfen units and 42" charge, someone prey tell how this is possible? Unless someone is claiming that IC's attached to Wulfen get to run and charge like the unit does.

I see 12" (calv /beast/bike/jump) move, 7+ on Wulfen roll gives another 12" move, then a 12" lucky charge. 36 max threat? Average 31", 33" with fleet. What am i missing?

Yes that's exactly what they are saying. There is a twenty page debate that was closed, but you have many people advocating a first turn charge with super friends. That's "super fun"!. You are missing the run move as well as they can run and charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

And nothing the person above you mentioned did anything of worth in the ITC if at least he complained about warp spiders he would of had an augment to stand on but he complained about junk like screamers and thunder stars which didn't do much better Tau.

I didn't mention spiders because there really is no way to nerf them without changing their rules in the codex. I don't t think it's wise to go down the rabbit hole of limited numbers unless it's for the whole game. I don't think that's what anyone wants.

All my points, change the meta. Just wait till you have superfriends into your deployed units before you even get to move them. Honestly, it should get the same treatment as "how do you want to play it?", but as I said people love their marines.

Regardless of people wishing to play abusive combos I seriously doubt ics will be running 36+ inches just because you attach them to a Wulfen unit.

 thejughead wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
Man some strong opinions here. I think FLG has done great to modify a game, and the rules of ITC be well accepted all over, the growth and spread alone shows the progress and over all acceptance of such. Like most things in life, can't please everyone, and the internet gives free reign for people to voice their opinion.

As for Wulfen units and 42" charge, someone prey tell how this is possible? Unless someone is claiming that IC's attached to Wulfen get to run and charge like the unit does.

I see 12" (calv /beast/bike/jump) move, 7+ on Wulfen roll gives another 12" move, then a 12" lucky charge. 36 max threat? Average 31", 33" with fleet. What am i missing?

Yes that's exactly what they are saying. There is a twenty page debate that was closed, but you have many people advocating a first turn charge with super friends. That's "super fun"!. You are missing the run move as well as they can run and charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

And nothing the person above you mentioned did anything of worth in the ITC if at least he complained about warp spiders he would of had an augment to stand on but he complained about junk like screamers and thunder stars which didn't do much better Tau.

I didn't mention spiders because there really is no way to nerf them without changing their rules in the codex. I don't t think it's wise to go down the rabbit hole of limited numbers unless it's for the whole game. I don't think that's what anyone wants.

All my points, change the meta. Just wait till you have superfriends into your deployed units before you even get to move them. Honestly, it should get the same treatment as "how do you want to play it?", but as I said people love their marines.

'

Ohhhh so people are claiming IC's attached to Wulfen can join in with the Run? (the potential additional D6), Well unless its official I hope to avoid this situation if my opponent claims this. (For starters whether IC can get the rule for attaching which i doubt they can, but again wait on ruling I guess since everything in this game needs a ruling (due to players, not the writing in the book), which will no doubt warrant someone being upset and writing a long article to bash ITC or GW, yet again..... Anyway, the argument of; Wulfen can not benefit from the Wulfen rule, hence the UNIT could not make an additional move if a 7+ was rolled anyway, should be addressed also.

Back to the topic at hand, Did they mention how close the results were to lowering points? I was happy either way, but voted to keep it the same. My example was off of, a personal experience actually including Frankie from FLG. We played at Nova invitational. He had a Battle company, and I had 20+ warp dice daemon army (2 armies that warrant the complaint against the lack of time argument). I had plenty of saves + FNP, plenty of mass dice shooting and attacking. And yet we got through 5 turns, and had the game continued possibly 6.

Since points seem to remain the same, add some sort of complaint for Slow players. 1 or 2 times, sure , repeated offenses warrants baby-sittng maybe?

I can't remember exactly but I thought they said during the stream that the vote wasn't even close for 1850, but of the ones who did vote for lowering points it was evenly split between 1500 and 1650. I might be wrong.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I can't remember exactly but I thought they said during the stream that the vote wasn't even close for 1850, but of the ones who did vote for lowering points it was evenly split between 1500 and 1650. I might be wrong.

Thanks man!

 Swampmist wrote:
In more constructive talk, what do you guys think could be done to nerf the spider spam? I still think that a two detachment limit would help a little, but is there anything else we can do?

The Spider players would then start sputtering and point at the Demi-Company rhino spam, "Bu, bu, but whadda 'bout that parking lot? Derp ! Derp!"

... says the guy who now owns 30 total spiders (just got the last ten off the sprue and onto their bases).

The answer for these things will come as it always does: The meta will shift and the long range AP3 will become more prevalent, mitigating Flicker Jump.

Except there isn't a lot of access to long ranged volume of fire AP3 for most armies.

 gigasnail wrote:
Except there isn't a lot of access to long ranged volume of fire AP3 for most armies.

They are Toughness value "efl" , throw a pillow at them and they die... For real, Grats to guy at LVO and all, but 45 spiders is really the new OP? Heldrakes, ap- volume of fire, going to ground in cover on objectives. Its not rocket science. It was a shock factor that has to much time in the spotlight, because no one has written a long drawn out piece on how to counter it, and some do not want to do the research to figure it out. There is no cookie cutter to play the game...

ITC did all they needed to, nerfing how many jumps they can make.

I didn't say there weren't ways to deal with them, I just said that AP3 shooting wasn't it.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
In more constructive talk, what do you guys think could be done to nerf the spider spam? I still think that a two detachment limit would help a little, but is there anything else we can do?

The Spider players would then start sputtering and point at the Demi-Company rhino spam, "Bu, bu, but whadda 'bout that parking lot? Derp ! Derp!"

... says the guy who now owns 30 total spiders (just got the last ten off the sprue and onto their bases).

The answer for these things will come as it always does: The meta will shift and the long range AP3 will become more prevalent, mitigating Flicker Jump.

I think Ritides had it right. As units are nerfed, especially new units, we stagnate the meta. I am hoping there is a huge decrease to the desire to nerf units and armies. It pigeon holes us into how to play an army. Once you go down the rabbit hole to limit warp spiders people will just shift to spamming swooping Hawks.

Yes, but spamming hawks is a lot less survivable, and their guns are much worse. I'm in the camp that would rather see every army, or nearly every army, be somewhere in the mid tier. Eldar honestly would probably be pretty ok if spiders, WKs, D-scythes, and scatbikes wheren't so good. Though, with the ITC nerfs, the wraith stuff is less good already, though the WK could use a points increase and something needs to be done about D-scythes 1-shotting anything they shoot at...

 Fishboy wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
I just want to put this out. While I am a friend of the FLG guys, I am in no ways involved in the ITC rules and polling process (other than I voted in their polls).

The opinions that I put forth in these types of threads are just that - my own, personal opinions - and do not reflect the actual opinions of the ITC founders.

Sorry J2Y. My intent was never to implicate you in that way. After our discussion at NOVA last year I Know how close you are to the FLG group and have been referencing your statements in their absence as you know their true intent.

If your coming to NOVA I'll buy you a beer....still disagree....but buy you a beer hehehe

No worries. Let's definitely share in the drinks the next time we meet.

As a competitive player, not much really phases me and there isn't much that I haven't seen or experienced. Whether a rule/unit/army gets nerfed or stays OP, we as competitive players will find a way to deal with it. However, Reece and I both share similar views on gaming because we have similar backgrounds. We are both competitive gamers and we are both entrepreneurs. And as entrepreneurs, we tend to have slightly different perspectives on the game than the average gamer. For the "sake and growth of the hobby", we tend to look at the game from a more moderate level as opposed to the extremes (that is, from a highly competitive level or from a RAW-purist level). Nothing gets my juices flowing more than a good matchup against an army at full power. However, what I enjoy, maybe 75% of the players might find too tough. Therefore, I can see where they are coming from with regards to some of the decisions they make. Not saying that I agree with everything, but I do agree with the Overall direction that they are heading. But that is just me and I can totally understand how a lot of people don't agree. That is totally fine as well.

Just to throw this out there there is a free unit that forces 13 saves on the 5 warp spiders unit, do you know what it is?

Thats right drones 20 str 5 shots twin-linked and they are free, combine that with the piranhas burst cannon those small units are dead. Now imagine if there was a formation where you could create more drones and keep your piranhas healthly to deal with msu style armies! Oh, wait there is but its to powerful because it would change the meta! (sarcastic voice)

Here are my unbiased thoughts on Firestream vs Warp-Spider spam. I've played against both unmodified Firestream and I've played against 30 Warp Spiders (6x5 MSU) run by a very good general.

Un-modified Firestream > modified ITC Spider-spam. The only way spider-spam wins this one is if there is a more-than-normal amount of BLOS terrain. It's just too much dakka even for MSU spiders.

Modified LVO Firestream (before the most recent changes from this poll) < modified ITC Spider-spam. With drone production cut by 40%, spiders become much more survivable. The fact that their firepower wounds based on Initiative means that they can tear up the core Tau army and avoid the drones more easily, but it will be a close battle.

jy2 what do you think would be better, unmodified Firestream, or Necron Decurion w/ 4 Canoptek Harvests?

Back on topic, have the full results been released yet? There were a few on the stream that I've posted, but I'm constantly clicking refresh on FLG page hoping for some answers

 Frozocrone wrote:
jy2 what do you think would be better, unmodified Firestream, or Necron Decurion w/ 4 Canoptek Harvests?

Back on topic, have the full results been released yet? There were a few on the stream that I've posted, but I'm constantly clicking refresh on FLG page hoping for some answers

That's a tough one. In non-ITC play, I'd give the advantage to the Firestream. They actually have the firepower to kill off anything but a Necron deathstar build.

In ITC play, the Necron list is illegal. You can't have more than 2 of the same formation.

I think the FLG guys are tabulating the results this weekend. I expect to see the results posted on Monday.....as well as my battle report (see Batrep section).

Jy2 what wins current firestream vs Wraith death star with orikan?

If its wraith death star do you think its unfair that the least of the two got nerfed?

 jy2 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
jy2 what do you think would be better, unmodified Firestream, or Necron Decurion w/ 4 Canoptek Harvests?

Back on topic, have the full results been released yet? There were a few on the stream that I've posted, but I'm constantly clicking refresh on FLG page hoping for some answers

That's a tough one. In non-ITC play, I'd give the advantage to the Firestream. They actually have the firepower to kill off anything but a Necron deathstar build.

In ITC play, the Necron list is illegal. You can't have more than 2 of the same formation.

I think the FLG guys are tabulating the results this weekend. I expect to see the results posted on Monday.....as well as my battle report (see Batrep section).

Yeah, my queries were more for non-ITC Have a friend that has 6 Canoptek Harvests :O and keeps buying more! So it would be nice to see him reign it in if they could all be wiped out. Was going to run a 1500 point with unmodifed Firestream (max pirahnas), Riptide Wing and Drone Net to see if it could take it on

Looking forward to that batrep - really want to see whether I should watch out for my mates newly acquired wulfen...

 CKO wrote:
Jy2 what wins current firestream vs Wraith death star with orikan?

If its wraith death star do you think its unfair that the least of the two got nerfed?

Necron Wraithstar can't beat unmodified firestream because they don't have enough mobility. They can be screened out because the characters in the star are not jump infantry and so cannot clear the screens. But they can against modified Firestream because now they have time to shoot down the screening drones before those screens get refreshed.

Any idea on when the results will be up? Its already Sunday

I'm expecting to see results posted on Monday. Sunday is a day of rest.

 jy2 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Jy2 what wins current firestream vs Wraith death star with orikan?

If its wraith death star do you think its unfair that the least of the two got nerfed?

Necron Wraithstar can't beat unmodified firestream because they don't have enough mobility. They can be screened out because the characters in the star are not jump infantry and so cannot clear the screens. But they can against modified Firestream because now they have time to shoot down the screening drones before those screens get refreshed.

I disagree!

I wish they would come on the forum and say look we got behind we will have it on wednesday or something like that. Instead they choose to keep it a secret despite giving out some of the results on their streams basically using the results as a form of advertisement or I might be thinking to deep!

It's Sunday. They're probably enjoying their weekend.

 CKO wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Jy2 what wins current firestream vs Wraith death star with orikan?

If its wraith death star do you think its unfair that the least of the two got nerfed?

Necron Wraithstar can't beat unmodified firestream because they don't have enough mobility. They can be screened out because the characters in the star are not jump infantry and so cannot clear the screens. But they can against modified Firestream because now they have time to shoot down the screening drones before those screens get refreshed.

I disagree!

I wish they would come on the forum and say look we got behind we will have it on wednesday or something like that. Instead they choose to keep it a secret despite giving out some of the results on their streams basically using the results as a form of advertisement or I might be thinking to deep!

Not sure what "secret" you're getting at. Listen to their Signals From the Frontline podcast. They specifically said that they had all of the results, but since some of the votes were close, they weren't going to publish the results until the emails had been authenticated to ensure that people weren't ballot-stuffing. It'll be up on Monday at some point. I know you're very interested to see how the votes go (as are many of us) but like Jim said, life goes on. Regardless of how this vote goes, we'll find a way to do just fine and then some. And overall, the direction that FLG is taking the game is a good one (far better than the "forge a narrative" nonsense that GW has got going).

 luke1705 wrote:

 CKO wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Jy2 what wins current firestream vs Wraith death star with orikan?

If its wraith death star do you think its unfair that the least of the two got nerfed?

Necron Wraithstar can't beat unmodified firestream because they don't have enough mobility. They can be screened out because the characters in the star are not jump infantry and so cannot clear the screens. But they can against modified Firestream because now they have time to shoot down the screening drones before those screens get refreshed.

I disagree!

I wish they would come on the forum and say look we got behind we will have it on wednesday or something like that. Instead they choose to keep it a secret despite giving out some of the results on their streams basically using the results as a form of advertisement or I might be thinking to deep!

Not sure what "secret" you're getting at. Listen to their Signals From the Frontline podcast. They specifically said that they had all of the results, but since some of the votes were close, they weren't going to publish the results until the emails had been authenticated to ensure that people weren't ballot-stuffing. It'll be up on Monday at some point. I know you're very interested to see how the votes go (as are many of us) but like Jim said, life goes on. Regardless of how this vote goes, we'll find a way to do just fine and then some. And overall, the direction that FLG is taking the game is a good one (far better than the "forge a narrative" nonsense that GW has got going).

i can't find this friday's podcast, not on itunes, their site, or their youtube channel. link? or did we have to catch it live on twitch?