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Tomorrow you wake up, 8th Edition comes out, and formations in 40K have been removed from the game. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Does it completely change your army or the way you play the game? Formations are a relatively new addition to 40K, but I'm curious to see whether people view them as simply a short-term quirk of GW rules writing or something to be retained as a vital part of the 40K game experience going forward.

I don't think that'll change much. The underlying problems with 40k are still there. It's just that now you have less ways to spam the best units. If not for GSF people would do Gravbiker spam, for example.

Though, it would reduce the number of GHCs people can bring. So maybe it's a good thing?

Depends, will Unbound remain an option? Will these weird FoCs still be there?

I'll only be happy when we return to the old method of 1 HQ 2 Troops.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Tomorrow you wake up, 8th Edition comes out, and formations in 40K have been removed from the game. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Does it completely change your army or the way you play the game? Formations are a relatively new addition to 40K, but I'm curious to see whether people view them as simply a short-term quirk of GW rules writing or something to be retained as a vital part of the 40K game experience going forward.

It would be a beautiful, wonderful thing.

Free special rules, abilities, units, models, wargear, weapons, etc for no points costs is basically just condoned cheating, there's zero basis for formations (as GW have fielded them) having any place in any sort of even remotely balanced game.

They're munchkin mechanics to move web bundles and the like for GW sales targets, nothing more, something that everyone would have laughed at and instantly dismissed had someone other than GW talked about them just a couple years ago.


That said, they're not the only problem with 40k, but they're one of the biggest. The sooner they're gone, the better off the game as a whole will be.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Depends, will Unbound remain an option? Will these weird FoCs still be there?

I'll only be happy when we return to the old method of 1 HQ 2 Troops.

I remember the good old days of not more than 25% HQ, no more that 25% elite, no more than 50% FA, no more than 50% HS, and a minimum of 25% troops. Played a 2000 point game? Better bring at least 500 points in troops!

*8h Edition reset button in conjunction with all new 8th Edition codexs(at the same time) would be great if done correctly from a rule writing exercise and not steal from my wallet exercise.

as long as I could go back to taking raven wing and death wing the old fashion way I could get by with my DA.

My admech army would suffer a little more. If they made them one book it would probably solve that problem.

Other formation books would also suffer without some major FAQ

Formations do not need to die, however, formation bonuses do.

Formations should be a way to break the FOC shackles and that is it. That alone should have some value. No need to stack 3-4 special abilities on top of it. You just need to tone down the mandatory unit selection and open up the available slots.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Formations do not need to die, however, formation bonuses do.

Formations should be a way to break the FOC shackles and that is it. That alone should have some value. No need to stack 3-4 special abilities on top of it. You just need to tone down the mandatory unit selection and open up the available slots.

The problem isn't even that formations give bonuses. It's that not all books have formations and not all formations are created equal. Some are nice fluffy ways of building your army with a special rule or two to make the units you take not suck. Some are ways of spamming your already overpowered units and giving them special rules to crank them up to 11.

There are still plenty of armies that can do ridiculous things without formations. Take away formations, and all it would result is a meta shift, but no real power change.

I still think bonuses are a problem. Where in one army you can have a unit of assault marines (for example) with special formation rules X and Y. However you can have another unit of assault marines with different formation rules J and Q. Both in the same army.

Its just too much, at some point an assault marine should just be a damn assault marine.

I really like formations, and they seem like a good way to differentiate how different armies organize themselves as well as representing different strategies that they employ. However, they need to be better balanced and everyone needs to be able to take them. Otherwise it just increases the power gap between the haves and have nots.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I still think bonuses are a problem. Where in one army you can have a unit of assault marines (for example) with special formation rules X and Y. However you can have another unit of assault marines with different formation rules J and Q. Both in the same army.

Its just too much, at some point an assault marine should just be a damn assault marine.

which would be fine all things created equal. But assault marines are sub par. If I want to run some assault marines but still be competitive, I need some kind of buff. On the other hand, buffing them to the point of the skyhammer is really too much.

If they did something crazy like bring all the codex in line and internally balance the units, then we wouldn't need formation bonuses. Barring that, out right removing formations and/or their bonuses would only nerf some armies while doing next to nothing to others.

They wouldn't. GW has decided they are what makes money. If anything we would wake up and CAD would be gone. Our armies would be made of formations, and if the psychos at GW had anything to say about it points would be out. Go ahead and play your friends grot army with your fluffy all wraith army!

I would hate if Formations just left the game. Unbound on the other hand....

I think formations should change how the army is played. Change the FoC for that army, put One additional Restriction, give 1 Special Rule. Except for Combined Arms: That would get two special rules with no restriction since it is the Default.

So if you used The.... Tau Suit Spam Formation, you're FoC would be 2HQ, 6 Elites, 4Troops, 2 Fast attack, 2 Heavy Supports. Only usable units are: Crisis Suits, Riptides, Stealth Suits, Hazard Suits, Ghostknells, and Stormsurges. You can take a Crisis/Stealth/Hazard suit commander and if you do, that type of squad becomes a Troop Choice and can take HW markerlights for 10 points per model.

Well, the rumor is different. GW will put more emphasize on formations in the future.

But you're right. With all the formations out there (and the scattering of the rule set over WD, campaign books and whatnot), one looses the overview about the game.

I haven't played with Formations, because so much else that I didn't like was crammed into the game in 6th edition that I gave up. (Price was a factor too.) Nonetheless I think Formations as a concept has merit. The problem with them is that GW, like they always do, have fethed up the idea by making the bonuses overpowered in some cases (from what I read, anyway.)

But if done right I think Formations could replace codexes and the FOC as the basis of organising and balancing armies. However I have no faith in GW's ability or desire to do it right.

Well, formations are a vital part of the games in our gaming group. Recently, one guy played an Ork formation consisting of one unit of 100 or more Orks (from a supplement book). That's rather crazy.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Depends, will Unbound remain an option? Will these weird FoCs still be there?

I'll only be happy when we return to the old method of 1 HQ 2 Troops.

Ugh, that hit me right in the Harlequins.

Thing is, I really like formations, a lot of the time they are fluffy and break up the monotony of the CAD. I currently am playing in a club that doesn't allow any formations and not being able to play against decurions, green tides, gladius strike forces... thats great for some but I loved the challenge and fluff element. Now it's just the same spamming and abusing the CAD.

The bonuses really need to be toned down, I can't agree more but getting rid of these unique force compositions is just a waste IMHO

Do people really only have 1 list they play? I don't think I've played 2 games with exactly the same list (outside of a tournament) since the beginning of the 6th. Whether it be through formations, variant FOC or just the massive variety of options available, I tend to change my list every single game to try something new. Obviously some things stick around as staples and others are quickly rotated out as duds.

If formations vanished, I'd still endeavour to change my list up as much as possible. I've often found formations come across pretty overpowered anyway. I honestly think the game would be better if formations still existed, but simply offered no, or at least extremely mild, rules benefits. Alternatively, formations could offer an additional drawback alongside the structured picks.

The old FOC allowed a significant amount of variation of lists if you had a decent codex. It just didn't give players an off the peg setup with free bonuses like formations do.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The old FOC allowed a significant amount of variation of lists if you had a decent codex. It just didn't give players an off the peg setup with free bonuses like formations do.

Detachments and formations weren't all that bad even until the Necron book came out. That is the root of most evil when it comes to formations getting out of hand.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It would be a beautiful, wonderful thing.

Free special rules, abilities, units, models, wargear, weapons, etc for no points costs is basically just condoned cheating, there's zero basis for formations (as GW have fielded them) having any place in any sort of even remotely balanced game.

They're munchkin mechanics to move web bundles and the like for GW sales targets, nothing more, something that everyone would have laughed at and instantly dismissed had someone other than GW talked about them just a couple years ago.


That said, they're not the only problem with 40k, but they're one of the biggest. The sooner they're gone, the better off the game as a whole will be.

Pretty much this.

As a temporary fix, I'd at least assign point values to the formations, like the old Apoc formations.

I can only imagine someone in 5th proposing that his marine army gets all free transports if he takes a certain combo of units. They'd be laughed out of the forum.

I think that all it would do is make Eldar, Tau, and Daemons remain on top while everyone else gets worse or stays the same. Would probably go back to what 6th edition looked like with less variety and a continuation of the feast or famine power divide.

No more broken free stuff. That is a good thing. : )
3 pts Space marines and other discounted things are just silly

The bad thing is that it doesn't fix the rest of the broken stuff


Automatically Appended Next Post:

As a temporary fix, I'd at least assign point values to the formations, like the old Apoc formations.

This I would love this so much. It would be a better fix then just removing them. Do you want BS +1 on all your aspect warriors PAY FOR IT Like the rest of us. Want free drop pods to bad they should not be free.

I played an all greenwing dark angels lions blade formation force recently. I used to always build mixed, balanced, fluffy armies with the old foc. Well, the lions blade formation did amazingly well, and I pulled out a win.

After the game my opponent and I did the math and realized I got 8 razorbacks for free at 55 points a piece (440 points) they only cost me 160 points to upgrade to 8 tllc razorback (600 points of armor and nasty firepower... for 160 points). The firepower of tactics squads with plasma, devestator squads with grav, assault squads with plasma, the tllc razorbacks... it was just devistating.

It felt like cheating taking the formation with such a free bonus. And not fluffy, that army could curb stomp a ravenwing or deathwing force, who are the elite of that army.

The only point and purpose of formations was selling more model kits. This is also why they make unique formations in white dwarf, and exclusive formations with several hundred dollar formation bundles. Who needs multiple extra devistator squads, assault squads, and tactical squads for a couple hundred bucks just to get the super duper turn 1 kill all assault formation of doom.... esp when most folks own enough of those units already.

Get rid of crap formation hammer and bring back the intuitive, intelligent, and thought inducing foc!!! Bring back real army building! Make 40k useful again!

Well, formations allow GW to make some more money. See the formations in the starter sets.

I would be pissed. My Decurion is extremely fluffy and fun to play, and makes my Necrons feel more like, well...Necrons. It's easily half the reason I'm in love with the 7th edition codex.

Strangely the amount of money (sales revenue) that GW make has been declining every year since formations were spooged into mainstream 40K.

 oldzoggy wrote:


This I would love this so much. It would be a better fix then just removing them. Do you want BS +1 on all your aspect warriors PAY FOR IT Like the rest of us. Want free drop pods to bad they should not be free.

I don't think it fundamentally fixes formations (removing them is the one true fix for the problems they bring), but its a decent fix to roll back, if I was in charge. The issue with assigning points is in quantifying some of the bonuses, and taking into consideration what units are required for the formation and how good/bad they are.

The ideal replacement in my mind is a return to FoC, but offering a variety of generic FoC all armies have access to, and each codex would get a small amount of their own FoC. Bring back characters/rules that alter the FoC for more customization.

Basically just copy FW and how they do 30k.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I would be pissed. My Decurion is extremely fluffy and fun to play, and makes my Necrons feel more like, well...Necrons. It's easily half the reason I'm in love with the 7th edition codex.

The Decurion is great for Necron players. It makes the army much more resilient. Necrons would not be top tier without it.