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We only have 3 of them revealed. They're pretty cool and stuff.

I feel its a bit absurd with new powers could be thinking of just getting 3 libbies per army

The powers are out (see 3rd link):

https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/666
https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/667
https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/668

It's still better to ally in a SM Librarius Conclave to access the new powers than it is to fish for them with GK Libbies.

SJ

But we can harness Santic powers on a 3+! We only need to take 2000 points of a horrible formation that will never see play.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It's still better to ally in a SM Librarius Conclave to access the new powers than it is to fish for them with GK Libbies.

SJ

Not true actually. With GK you can access all of the same powers but you can be ML3. The space marine librarians (except for the named ones) are only ML2. So yes, tiggy or Loth would be solid choices, but they only really guarantee you a single power. That's not nothing, don't get me wrong. But a GK Librarian will get a single power (say invis) 50% of the time of you're willing to throw all 3 rolls at it. That's pretty decent. Consider the ML2 librarian in a conclave. Only gets invis (or whatever power you're targeting) 33% of the time. That's a big difference. Especially if you run tiggy or Loth in an allied detachment for GK, you get the best of both worlds. The only thing you miss out on is the ability to harness on 2+, which is not ideal obviously. However, trading more guaranteed casting (and therefore less chance or perils) for a greater likelihood of getting the powers you want is not an awful trade off. I'm trying out a Cent Star list that utilizes Loth and 2 GK libbies with no conclave.

Three L2 Librarians rolling on the same chart have a ~70% chance of scoring the one power you really want. Two GK libbies doing the same thing have a 75% chance. BUT the Librarius manifests on a 2+ as opposed to the GK's 4+. The decision is up to you.

 raverrn wrote:
Three L2 Librarians rolling on the same chart have a ~70% chance of scoring the one power you really want. Two GK libbies doing the same thing have a 75% chance. BUT the Librarius manifests on a 2+ as opposed to the GK's 4+. The decision is up to you.

Such a loaded statistic. With GK, you can reliably get one power or have a decent chance to get two. Any ML3 librarian is substantially better at getting a single power than a ML2. Compare apples to apples.

You need invis? A conclave of 3 normal guys will get you your power 70 percent of the time. 3 GK librarians will do it nearly 90 percent of the time.

Stepping back down to 2, GK do the job 75 percent of the time, with regular ML2 dudes only getting you the power you need 55 percent of the time. I'm not saying that GK are better than conclave librarians. I'm just saying what good is being able to cast powers if they're mental fortitude and terrify? And the raw numbers show that that will happen nearly 1.4 times as often with 2 librarians, or 1.25 times as often with 3. With only 1 guy rolling on each table, it's even worse. A GK ML3 librarian will get you the power that you want 1.5 times as often as the ML2 librarian.

 luke1705 wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
Three L2 Librarians rolling on the same chart have a ~70% chance of scoring the one power you really want. Two GK libbies doing the same thing have a 75% chance. BUT the Librarius manifests on a 2+ as opposed to the GK's 4+. The decision is up to you.

Such a loaded statistic. With GK, you can reliably get one power or have a decent chance to get two. Any ML3 librarian is substantially better at getting a single power than a ML2. Compare apples to apples.

You need invis? A conclave of 3 normal guys will get you your power 70 percent of the time. 3 GK librarians will do it nearly 90 percent of the time.

Stepping back down to 2, GK do the job 75 percent of the time, with regular ML2 dudes only getting you the power you need 55 percent of the time. I'm not saying that GK are better than conclave librarians. I'm just saying what good is being able to cast powers if they're mental fortitude and terrify? And the raw numbers show that that will happen nearly 1.4 times as often with 2 librarians, or 1.25 times as often with 3. With only 1 guy rolling on each table, it's even worse. A GK ML3 librarian will get you the power that you want 1.5 times as often as the ML2 librarian.

Or maybe step back and think about it. Is there some reason I'd be comparing 2 GK libbies to 3 SM ones? Something to do with the amount of points they take? Something like 2 GK libbies being roughly equivalent to three SM ones?

I guess if you were comparing the space marines in power armor to the GK in terminator armor, that would be true. But we're back to apples and oranges again

 luke1705 wrote:
I guess if you were comparing the space marines in power armor to the GK in terminator armor, that would be true. But we're back to apples and oranges again

Sure, just like I'm comparing four wounds to six, or four attacks to nine. But just considering the reason you take the models - is an extra 5% chance at the power you want and a smaller chance at duplicate powers worth casting on a 4+ instead of a 2+?

It is even weird it doesn't apply to go librarians how are the best of best taken from other chapters.

Can you imagine 3 lib dreadnought in lib conclave

arthorn wrote:
It is even weird it doesn't apply to go librarians how are the best of best taken from other chapters.

Not really, from a narrative point. The Grey Knights chapter is notoriously secretive, more so than almost any other Imperial organization. They would not be very open to sharing their dangerous warp knowledge with the [in their eyes] less disciplined Codex Marines.

 Xca|iber wrote:
The powers are out (see 3rd link):

https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/666
https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/667
https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/668

3rd link should be /668 - fixed!

GK's are coming around.

Can we use Fire Raptors/Storm Eagles? I see a lot of pictures of them around for GK/Inq, but I thought the rules for the FR were specific to SM chapters, like the Storm Raven was supposed to be for GK/BA.

Not working for me.

Just curious don't you guys feel we miss some ranged fire power?

Also how do you guys handle a fleeing(move turbo boost) de ?

I like to use my Incinerator toting Interceptors and NDKs to purge DE, be they on foot or embarked. Open top and bad saves means Incinerators on jump infantry is your go to.

SJ

With the new fliers coming out, should GK take a support flier?

Haven't seen the points cost just yet... But looks like an option.

Stormtalons are all you really need if you want to ally in Flyers, but I'm definitely curious on the rules for the new thing as it has multiple Assault Cannons.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 Xca|iber wrote:
The powers are out (see 3rd link):

https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/666
https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/667
https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/668

3rd link should be /668 - fixed!

GK's are coming around.

Can we use Fire Raptors/Storm Eagles? I see a lot of pictures of them around for GK/Inq, but I thought the rules for the FR were specific to SM chapters, like the Storm Raven was supposed to be for GK/BA.

Thanks, sorry about that.

Bit of a batrep, with my notes at the end

So I had a fun game recently. 1850, vs CSM. He was running slanesh mostly, had a khorne lord with AOBF, slanesh DP, 2 noise marines in rhinos, and some spawn with the lord, and that new forgefiend/warpsmith formation.

I had a GK inq. list, with the new land raider spearhead. I thought it would help with the weaknesses of the LR, immobilization/etc, especially since we were playing it would take a HP but ignore immobile on dangerous terrain as well. 2 redeemers, 1 crusader.

1 termie squad in a redeemer, 2 hammers, 1 libby (lvl 2 DLD), 1 full purifier squad 4 incinerators 2 hammers, CS, and a inq. force with 1 priest, 4 crusaders, and 6 DCA's. 4 inquisitors. 3 had lvl 1 psyker(pyromancy, I wanted telekenesis, couldn't take it), all were xenos (I know, but I wanted the 'nades) with psych-out and rad grenades.

(given I wasn't taking DK's, he didn't mind that was about 4 detachments

Placed them dead center and just charged up. He actually did 2 HP on one of them with glaces from the forgefiends, the daemonforge really helped. the only htings he had that could scratch them were the str 8 FF, the str 10 smash DP, and the two blastmaster noise marines.

I won't make this a full batrep (I doubt you want that)

Long story short, 1 LR goes to 1 hp, all three survive, both purifier squads get wiped by his lord BY HIMSELF (I had never fought a ap 2 at init. beatstick, it was depressingly ugly for my poor meqs) and my inquisitors were pretty useless. none used a power (one fired molten beam, failed to manifest) and while the rad grenades were helpful (especially IDing the power axed warpsmith before he could have wiped the squad) I never got any good results on the psych-out grenades.



What I learned-

1. Beware ap 2 on IC's. those guys were rocking 5-13 (great roll on a daemon weapon) attacks at ap 2, and it's too easy to just nuke a squad without any invul. save.

2. Land raiders have potential. I would have lost if not for them, and the amount of fire he was putting out is similar to a grav list. (in terms of lots of shots, some rerolls, and having to get a 6 to do damage, to a LR) With immobilized off the table, they can have a nice effect.

3. Don't put psyker inquisitors in assaulty squads, there's no good powers for them. Also psych-out grenades may not be worth it given the results (the ony times used, either nothing, the leadership one on fearless, or the everyone attacks one on a single model)

4. if they can get in there, our termies will utterly mulch MEQs.

5. Purifiers need someone with a good invuln just in case. Cleansing flame is nasty. did 4 wounds to the DP (killed in in shooting, I didn't want that black mace anywhere near me) with that alone. (libby had it as well)

6. Hammerhand doesn't get enough credit.

I have wanted to use Purifiers but just couldn't figure a good way to get them where I want them.

LR seems to be a hefty cost just to tote them around.

Goos to hear you won, I think gk Aldo need ap 2 halberd(soul glance should be ap2) makes gm a good choice) I aam also the storm Raven seems so expensive especially turn 2 arrivals! Anyone found a way without allies, other than rhinos?:p

I prefer rhinos, but you could stick Draigo with them instead. Not only can he tank sick damage for your pagk purifiers, but he can gate them anywhere on the board allowing them to use Cleansing Flame and 2x incinerators in the same turn as the teleport for like 20 ignore cover insta hits. (Goodbye scatbike spam and ADL firelines. Nova hits all units within the radius too, each unit takes 2d6 hits. Ignore cover ignores jinks.)

 slip wrote:
I prefer rhinos, but you could stick Draigo with them instead. Not only can he tank sick damage for your pagk purifiers, but he can gate them anywhere on the board allowing them to use Cleansing Flame and 2x incinerators in the same turn as the teleport for like 20 ignore cover insta hits. (Goodbye scatbike spam and ADL firelines. Nova hits all units within the radius too, each unit takes 2d6 hits. Ignore cover ignores jinks.)

I have seriously considered this. I'm not averse to dangers as I used to play Necrons in 3rd and veiled whole units of Immortals around the board multiple times.

I also don't mind paying the price for Draigo to assure I have gate ability vs. paying for 2 Libby's and hoping for the best.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 slip wrote:
I prefer rhinos, but you could stick Draigo with them instead. Not only can he tank sick damage for your pagk purifiers, but he can gate them anywhere on the board allowing them to use Cleansing Flame and 2x incinerators in the same turn as the teleport for like 20 ignore cover insta hits. (Goodbye scatbike spam and ADL firelines. Nova hits all units within the radius too, each unit takes 2d6 hits. Ignore cover ignores jinks.)

I have seriously considered this. I'm not averse to dangers as I used to play Necrons in 3rd and veiled whole units of Immortals around the board multiple times.

I also don't mind paying the price for Draigo to assure I have gate ability vs. paying for 2 Libby's and hoping for the best.

Keep in mind, the odds of you getting gate with a ML3 libby is probably better than you think. It's the old monty hall paradox if you've ever heard that. You look at it and think 3 die, 6 powers: (1/6)+(1/6)+(1/6) = (3/6) or 50% chance, but it's better than that. The probability decreases with each option being removed, you can't take duplicate powers after all. Furthermore, each fraction represents a result that you want rather than any given result, which is important statistically. It's actually (1/6)+(1/5)+(1/4) = 37/60 = 62%. I know it sounds strange and counter intuitive, the monty hall paradox solution notoriously provoked outrage. The crux of it is, each additional option subtraction is assuming the previous option was an undesirable result. For monty hall the known undesirable was a goat, here it's banishment.

Anyway, it's still not a sure thing like you wanted, you just gave me a chance to talk game theory and I took it haha. Enough about weird math. A libby also gives you a shot at vortex of doom which is baller as hell. That's the real story here.

That can't be right. Cause according that theory... a ML5 librarian would have over a 100% chance of getting the power you want. Which isn't possible because there must be a chance of failure unless you get 6 rolls.

I might have got the exact math wrong (I definitely should double checked it to four five options) but it's a diminishing pool of undesirables and a constant pool of desirables so the odds will be greater than 50/50 when you factor in the odds of each roll getting a desirable. Let me rejigger the math and find my error and I'll get back to you.

E: The error is you no longer gain a diminishing return when there's been four selections, after the final roll is used to determine the last of two powers disregarding the last undesirable, there's no more to disregard after that. I think! Will try to confirm.

Wouldn't it be easier to calculate the chance of not getting the roll you want?

(5/6)*(4/5)*(3/4) = 50%.

Turns out, it is exactly 50% BECAUSE of the fact that you eliminate options already rolls. The odds would decrease if you didn't eliminate previously rolled options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So for 5 rolls:

(5/6)*(4/5)*(3/4)*(2/3)*(1/2) = 16.66%... inverse that to 83.33% chance of success with 5 rolls.

So with the relic and 4 rolls: (5/6)*(4/5)*(3/4)*(2/3) = 33.33%... inverse to 66.66% chance of success to get gate of inifinity.

Which just happens to be 4/6.

Zimko you are awesome! Thanks for that, it was bugging the gak outta me. I was obviously mistaken.

So Still better to take draigo for tanking and guaranteed gate, add lib/stern for sanctuary?? sounds awesome against anything but meq lists.. any tried it yet?