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Yes. Chaos needs more books.

KDK is the right path. It wasn't done perfectly, but it's the path.

What chaos needs (and I work on homebrewing) is 5 codcies, one for each god, and one for the "black legion and escorts"
With things like other legions being spin off Decurions, like RG and WS got.

 Deadshot wrote:
Except loyalists seem to be able to get by just fine with half a dozen books and are able to make it work perfectly, and usually only have to buy one or two books if they want allies. There's no reason Chaos can't do the same or any other faction for that matter.

Because "loyalists" are not a 40k army. You have Codex: Spesss Mehreens, which includes Ultrasmurfs, Iron Hands, etc. That's an army. Then you have Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels who are armies on their own right. And precisely some of them (Space Wolves) are the prime example of what happens when someone goes too far at making a certain army unique.

I don't think Chaos Space Marines need such a thing. The "Legion rules" from 3.5 worked quite well towards making different legions/warbands stand out on their own, and they were one or two pages long in each case. You don't need an entirely separate codex in order to make Night Lords, Thousand Sons and World Eaters to have flavour on their own right.

Also, Khorne Daemonkin was an excuse to sell the new Bloodthirster kit to 40k players. It failed to adress 99% of the issues of the CSM codex. Daemonkin is certainly NOT the way to go. It won't likely happen again anyway.

 Deadshot wrote:
Except loyalists seem to be able to get by just fine with half a dozen books and are able to make it work perfectly, and usually only have to buy one or two books if they want allies. There's no reason Chaos can't do the same or any other faction for that matter.

I don't want one book for each legion followed by one book for each daemonic legion followed by a book each for traitor guard, mutant hordes, cultists and mechanicus. Space marines are already over the top with separate books as it is and that's without them even being famous for intermingling. A single Legions of Chaos book that is flexible enough to represent any legion followed up by a The Lost and the Damned book with rules for daemonic incursion lists (current daemon lists), rules for using daemons with regular SM and IG etc lists to represent them going rogue or falling to daemonic possession, special characters unique to each legion and maybe some expanded rules for mutants and chaos spawn etc would be more than sufficient.

I'd honestly like a swappable Daemon Engine kit, kind of like Armoured Core 3, only for Chaos Space Marine vehicles.

Give us a Chaos Knight detachment, give us Plastic Chaos Knights, 55ppm Oblits, remove Oblit Slow and Purposeful and resculpt oblits, make Hellbrutes MC's and Deffies Superheavy Walkers.

Don't get me wrong. I would prefer one giant tome of chaos if I had the choice, but I don't think GW is willing or capable to pull that off. And it seems campaign books are here to stay.
So, unique renegades makes more sense to me from GW's point of view until they figure out what to do with legions.

More so, given how the crimson slaughter are their new poster child of chaos. I think that we would both be better off if GW decided to run with renegades for now and make them their own thing, instead of mixing everything in one book.

There are simply too many mortal followers of chaos to cram into one book, Legions, Renegades, R&H. It doesn't fit GW's business model. So I'd rather have them focus on one and make those good. They're going to have to completely redesign csm either way. And renegades would let them come up with completely new stuff.

I don't really get the "more books is bad" thing either. The more books, the more flavorful any given sub faction can be. And unless you're hell bent on allying everything, then you only need one or two books. Like If I wanted to play space wolves, I'd only have to get the space wolves codex, nothing else. I mean sure, one giant book with everything would be cool, but getting a specific codex for your chapter is hardly a deal breaker.

 Deadshot wrote:
Except loyalists seem to be able to get by just fine with half a dozen books and are able to make it work perfectly, and usually only have to buy one or two books if they want allies. There's no reason Chaos can't do the same or any other faction for that matter.

That's the way that Loyalists work now, yes, but that doesn't mean it's the best way for them to work either. A core Loyalist book alongside a core Traitor book alongside one, maybe two, supplements for each has a much greater degree of simplicity, is much easier to balance and update, requires less investment both to buy and manufacture etc etc.

Even with the current Loyalist set up, how many unit entries are duplicated in each one? I know I'm banging on about it, but the FW paradigm is just so much better it's really incredible that nobody in GW management has stopped, looked at it and thought "hang on a minute.."

Exactly. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves REALLY just need to be in the bloody Vanilla codex.

I feel like chaos needs a lot of stuff, but mainly:

More optimized choices for different roles - we have many combat units, one or two of them are ever worth taking.

Better special characters would be quite nice but not a huge priority, I just dont like it how other special characters seem to be able to bitch slap ours most of the time.

Make it so the land raider isnt the only vehicle with an assault ramp! I'm forced to use a dreadclaw to ever have a chance at winning.

Cheaper costs across the board, we cant get as many bodies down as other armies and the ones we do get down normally still arnt as good.

More reliability from things like the chaos boon table or possessed, dont get punished for having a chance to get a basic daemon prince that lost the 100 pts of upgrade you gave your lord, or worse yet a spawn.

There is probably more than this but I think this touches on a lot of the major issues.

There have been many theories as to why Chaos hasn't gotten an update in so long but for me I think the following on the primary reasons:

1.) The range is ancient. We're one of the few ranges which still largely rely on 3rd and 4th edition models, with the exception of the SoBs (who rely on even older 2nd edition models!). Due to this, a hell of a lot of options are missing from our lineup, like Terminators who get ONE WEAPON per type per box, compared to Grey Knight Terminators who have every weapon option for every model. I suspect that they're making resculpts for all of the chaos space marine models (at least the generic ones like Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, and Khorne Berserkers) before rolling out a new codex. They do seem to have a style set for them already though, just look at the DV Chosen, Aspiring Champion and Raptors.

2.) GW has no idea which direction to go with for the Chaos Space Marines. Prior to 4th edition, the idea was that the Chaos Space Marines were the original Traitor Marines, preserved through the machinations of the Warp, fighting in present day. 4th edition and 6th edition instead tried to portray them as renegade marines, with the traitor legions being mere remnants of their former glory. This comes up as a problem for their wargear and rules; they had their signature Combi-Bolters and lack of landspeeders because, before, Stormbolters and Landspeeders didn't become widespread until after the heresy, so what few ones the Traitor Legion had broke down and couldn't be replaced soon after. But this doesn't make sense since a lot of the legions are known to salvage stuff from loyalist marines. With making them "renegades" runs into the same problem; how the hell did they suddenly gain Combi Bolters, which are suppose to be from around the heresy, despite them being new traitors with new items? Functionally they should be the same as vanilla marines with some daemonic support. And then there's pleasing the fanbase, as some prefer the older traitor legions and the mutant monstrosities they've become, while others think it's unrealistic (casualties should really have made them remnants) and that being Renegade Marines makes more sense. It's a careful balancing act that GW has been unable to make work at all for 2 editions now.

3.) There have been increasing hints that GW wants to get rid of Slaanesh altogether, as his/her theme of sex, lust and excess are not exactly wholesome ideas for branching out into the mainstream (but for some reason gore, disease and body horror are). However doing so would be to take out a huge chunk of the estabilished fluff and literally negate 1/4th of the entire chaos army altogether, so again they're not exactly sure of what they're gonna do.

My wishlist:

- A new Codex any time soon.

Special Rules: All Marks grant fearless, Undivided is free, lets us re-roll failed moral. LD is 9, 10 for champs.
Boons; replace with a D6 chart. 1 is bad. 6 is cool. 2-5 is useful. Give Aspiring Champs 2 wounds.

Wargear - Mutations that boost stats. Maybe even some negative debuffs we can choose to shave points off a character (Insanity, Bad Mutations). I think this would be fluffy and a unique option. Cooler demon weapons including ranged. Expensive, flashy and fearsome. Make our Lords intimidating. A weapon that inflicts D3 wounds on MC / GMC could help.

Weapon Options -
Let's get some Extoplasma Cannons or something for Havocs / CSM squads. We are not getting many new toys so lets have optional Warp Ammo upgrades for what we already have. 36" Str10 Ap2 "Dark Lascannon". Warp Flamers that deny Overwatch. Mutagenic Missiles. Give us Inferno Round upgrades for Heavy Bolters. Imagine a Havoc Squad with Mini Hades Autocannons.

Sorcerer - Let's get some decent God specific powers going, and a "Black Magic" generic Chaos lore. We should have some powerful, risky spells to cast. I'd like the option to pay extra points for an "Exalted Sorcerer" which has 3 wounds so we can splash points upgrading them and not have them die to perils so easily. Maybe starts at mastery 3 and can go to 4. A bit like the old Lord Wizards / Hero Wizards of old WHFB.

Prince - Small points reduction?

Chosen / CSM Squads - Again, knock the cost down. Let us use those points on some cool upgrades. Not expecting these to become amazing but give us some customization so we can be more excited to field them as something other than a tax.

Helbrute - Give a demon save. Give us access to normal dreads also with the brute being our ugly venerable.

Mutilators - Let them deepstrike into CC if they land on an enemy unit, maybe give the target a choice to overwatch at full BS or flee.

Talons - Cost reduction

Vehicles - Squads please. Special rules appreciated. Warp Ammo upgrades.

Kar Athri wrote:


More reliability from things like the chaos boon table or possessed, dont get punished for having a chance to get a basic daemon prince that lost the 100 pts of upgrade you gave your lord, or worse yet a spawn.

The fact these things exist at all is an issue in my book. I'm a great advocate for player agency over random tables (as I'm sure most are) and contrary to what GW tries to force feed us, random tables do not encourage forging the narrative.

If I wanted to forge a narrative, I'd give my Lord a tentacle for an arm (for instance.) I'd model that on the miniature, and I'd select it at as an option whenever I fielded the model, it could give him +1A, act as a 2nd melee weapon, impose -1A in a challenge, there'd be all sorts of ways to implement it that made it useful without breaking the game or requiring too high a points cost. My narrative would be that he lost his original arm in a duel with a loyalist but ultimately emerged victorious and so was rewarded with a replacement by his patron God.

As it stands, I can model it, I can have a reason for it, but every game he can swing wildly in what that very same boon does functionally on the table, many of which would have little bearing on the detail and effort I'd put into the model and the backstory. This isn't forging the narrative, this is breaking immersion. Why, given the obvious presence of a tentacle for an arm, is my Lord Stubborn?

Same goes for the Possessed. The best reference we have for what it's like for a Possessed day to day are the HH series. Now, in that context an individual Marine is inhabited by an individual entity with, while far ranging and personal, a fixed set of attributes. While they can appear somewhere between quite normal and full Daemon depending on circumstance, they either have wings, or don't etc etc.

Much better to have a range of upgrades where you can make an informed tactical choice about the unit's role, pay the points, model the minis and get on with it than have them roll exactly the right result for the situation, be in the middle of kicking arse, then all of a sudden change their mind and do something completely different and totally inappropriate 'cause Chaos!

If I ever meet Jervis, I'll be tempted to stuff a collection of random tables into one of his orifices, but I'll be sure to roll a D6 to determine which one...

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
There have been many theories as to why Chaos hasn't gotten an update in so long but for me I think the following on the primary reasons (...)

As much as these make sense, I'm afraid the truth is actually simpler: there's currently nobody at the Studio who actually cares about Chaos Space Marines. Or rather, nobody who cares and has actually the power to do anything about it.

If you look at the development and evolution of 40k over the years, it's painfully obvious certain things happen merely because one of the main designers pushes for it (not taking into account the times upper management has stepped in and demanded certain changes or courses of action, like 3rd edition as a whole).

Chaos 3.5 happened because Pete Haines cared. Eldar have been one of the most powerful armies throughout all editions because Phil Kelly wants it so. Matt Ward turned most things he touched into Mary Sues.

On the other hand of the spectrum, when nobody particularly cares about a certain army, that army tends to get heavily mis-treated. Nobody cared about the Squats, so they got squatted (the Squats' fate should have been a clear warning to everyone about the things to come, but other than actual Squats players, the lobotomized fanbase refused to listen). Nobody has cared about SoB or CSM for a long time, and thus their current state. It's been similar for Tyranids, a faction that has been neglected since 4th edition. Similar things have happened in Fantasy too, i.e. only Priestly seemed interested in Chaos Dwarfs so when he got sidelined by GW the Chaos Dwarfs were left to rot and die.

Back to Chaos Space Marines, it just seems nobody cares at this point.

-Update entire range

-Remove Forced Challenges and the boon table. (dumbest gak i've ever seen)

Release 3 codexes:

Codex 1: Traitoris Extremis: Focuses on Black Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion. Full rules, formations and individual artifacts section and special rules for each legion.
Codex 2: Traitoris Daemonica: Focuses on Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children. Full rules, formations individual artifacts sections and special rules for each legions.
Codex3: Renegades and Heretics: Focuses on Renegade Warbands and Imperial Guard such as Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter etc. Full rules, formations individual artifacts sections and special rules for each legions.

 Korinov wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
There have been many theories as to why Chaos hasn't gotten an update in so long but for me I think the following on the primary reasons (...)

As much as these make sense, I'm afraid the truth is actually simpler: there's currently nobody at the Studio who actually cares about Chaos Space Marines. Or rather, nobody who cares and has actually the power to do anything about it.

If you look at the development and evolution of 40k over the years, it's painfully obvious certain things happen merely because one of the main designers pushes for it (not taking into account the times upper management has stepped in and demanded certain changes or courses of action, like 3rd edition as a whole).

Chaos 3.5 happened because Pete Haines cared. Eldar have been one of the most powerful armies throughout all editions because Phil Kelly wants it so. Matt Ward turned most things he touched into Mary Sues.

On the other hand of the spectrum, when nobody particularly cares about a certain army, that army tends to get heavily mis-treated. Nobody cared about the Squats, so they got squatted (the Squats' fate should have been a clear warning to everyone about the things to come, but other than actual Squats players, the lobotomized fanbase refused to listen). Nobody has cared about SoB or CSM for a long time, and thus their current state. It's been similar for Tyranids, a faction that has been neglected since 4th edition. Similar things have happened in Fantasy too, i.e. only Priestly seemed interested in Chaos Dwarfs so when he got sidelined by GW the Chaos Dwarfs were left to rot and die.

Back to Chaos Space Marines, it just seems nobody cares at this point.

That's not entirely true...

Tyranids haven't been neglected in any way shape or form; they've had among the most releases through 5th edition up to current! The problem for Tyranids is that they're in part a melee focused horde army in a game that heavily favours shooting above all else, and in part suffer from a similar problem that Chaos Marines do in that they're still paying 4th/5th edition pricing for all their units/upgrades.

Likewise, Phil cares equally for Dark Eldar as much as Craftworld Eldar, yet DE suck monkey balls ruleswise. Conversely, Eldar have almost always been grossly above everyone else, simply because, "Elves in space!"

Marines are GW's poster children, and yet, it wasn't until recent times in 5th edition that they finally became an actual threat on the table! 2nd & 3rd editions especially, Marines with the sole exception of Space Wolves, were a complete joke army. (back in 3rd, SW's had the second most tournament wins, behind only Eldar!!)



The whole "GW hates Chaos" has been a very recent thing, some say mostly down to Kirby being a toolbag who hated Chaos in general.

During the 4th ed codex release, Chaos Marines got a feth tone of kits released; Re-designed Chaos Marine box, Terminators, Possessed, Terminator Lord, Vindicator (including new re-worked upgrade sprue), Huron Blackheart... and re-boxings for Predator + Land Raider to include the newer frame as well.

Unfortunately, the technology was in it's infancy, and we've had nothing of note since that last release, with the exception of the Raptor/Warptalons, Dinobots, Hellturkey & Hellbrute. (and ALL of those new kits are frankly gorgeous looking!)

No other army has gone 10 years of near complete neglect since 2007. Prior to that however, it was literally Orks, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Guard, etc... who were getting the "feth you" attitude from GW.
During that time however, Chaos Marines were getting nearly as much attention as Marines were, and daresay, equal the attention that Eldar & Tyranids were getting.

Our real pain has been since '08/'09, when GW decided to go crazy with the customisation & such for everyone, of which only we've been missed out on.
Before that however, let's remember that we were the army that got ALL the cool super fluffy extras that no one else got! 3.5ed was amazing... It's awesome really that it lead to GW giving similar treatments to everyone, just unfortunate that the army which started it all has sadly been left to rot as the only true 'have-not'.

It's less "GW hates Chaos" and more "GW doesn't know what to do with Chaos" for me. Again, everything I listed above basically makes Chaos a huge liability at this point. They have no idea how to go with the fluff nor do they know where they wanna go with the range.

Also, I highly doubt anything resembling the 3.5 edition codex would ever come. All of the new codexes are very cookie cutter, with special rules thrown in to differentiate them. 3.5, by contrast, was a labor of love compared to anything new. We might get something OP, but we won't get anything close to the old legion rules. And it will be simply because it'll be too much effort. Hell, at this point, the Marks of Chaos feels more like an Artifact of bygone times rather than a central theme to tie the armies together, and they're suppose to be the central theme behind Chaos!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Tyranids haven't been neglected in any way shape or form; they've had among the most releases through 5th edition up to current! The problem for Tyranids is that they're in part a melee focused horde army in a game that heavily favours shooting above all else, and in part suffer from a similar problem that Chaos Marines do in that they're still paying 4th/5th edition pricing for all their units/upgrades.

They've been neglected in the sense that, despite new (and frankly quite uninspired, as far as my taste goes) kits, the army has hardly been shown any kind of love. When an army's new book is assigned for Cruddace to make, you know nobody isn't really interested.

Likewise, Phil cares equally for Dark Eldar as much as Craftworld Eldar, yet DE suck monkey balls ruleswise. Conversely, Eldar have almost always been grossly above everyone else, simply because, "Elves in space!"

Not sure if I agree with that. If Kelly cared for DE as much as his beloved Eldar, DE wouldn't have been like 10 years without an update (as they were from 3rd to 5th). And as far as their current iteration goes, I'd say Kelly sees DE mostly as a tool for his Eldar to be even more powerful over the gaming table.

Marines are GW's poster children, and yet, it wasn't until recent times in 5th edition that they finally became an actual threat on the table! 2nd & 3rd editions especially, Marines with the sole exception of Space Wolves, were a complete joke army. (back in 3rd, SW's had the second most tournament wins, behind only Eldar!!)

Spess Mehreens have suffered from several fluff vs. rules issues from the very beginning, mostly because the trend in the fluff has (mostly) always been to paint them as unbeatable, nigh-invulnerable superheroes, while in the rules... stat-wise they haven't really got past the "elite human" spot. In the end, playing marines has always meant paying extra points for a base unit that - in practice - doesn't perform much differently than a normal human wearing carapace armor. It's a problem GW has never been able to fully solve, despite throwing more and more snowflake special rules at it (talk about long-term incompetency lol).

Still the amount of attention they get is head and shoulders above any other faction. Currently we have four loyalist marine full codices (SM, SW, DA and BA) and not five because they stopped caring about Black Templars a while ago.

The whole "GW hates Chaos" has been a very recent thing, some say mostly down to Kirby being a toolbag who hated Chaos in general.

During the 4th ed codex release, Chaos Marines got a feth tone of kits released; Re-designed Chaos Marine box, Terminators, Possessed, Terminator Lord, Vindicator (including new re-worked upgrade sprue), Huron Blackheart... and re-boxings for Predator + Land Raider to include the newer frame as well.

Unfortunately, the technology was in it's infancy, and we've had nothing of note since that last release, with the exception of the Raptor/Warptalons, Dinobots, Hellturkey & Hellbrute. (and ALL of those new kits are frankly gorgeous looking!)

The "re-designed" Chaos Marines from 4th edition were mostly the same as the 3rd ed. box, with very minor differences, and the kit is still lacking in terms of special weapons (except plasma pistols lol). Plastic Terminators weren't much of an improvement over the previous metal models from the mid 90s, and their weapons options are a joke. Same for Posessed, I'd even say the 3rd ed. models were vastly superior.

About the new stuff from 6th... I agree the Raptors/Warptalons kits is excellent. As for the rest however, the Dinobots are merely ok for my taste, and quite a lot of people find them pretty dumb and goofy looking. Both the Heldrake and the Helbrute leave me indiferent, I don't really like the artistic choice that lead to the Helbrute (or to be more precise, I wouldn't have complained if the Helbrute hadn't meant the removal of the classy old Chaos Dreadnought). Frankly, I see the Heldrake and the Helbrute, then I have a look at what Forgeworld did... and if it were up to me, the Hellblade and the Ferrum Infernus Dreadnought would be featured in the CSM codex instead.

No other army has gone 10 years of near complete neglect since 2007. Prior to that however, it was literally Orks, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Guard, etc... who were getting the "feth you" attitude from GW.
During that time however, Chaos Marines were getting nearly as much attention as Marines were, and daresay, equal the attention that Eldar & Tyranids were getting.

Our real pain has been since '08/'09, when GW decided to go crazy with the customisation & such for everyone, of which only we've been missed out on.
Before that however, let's remember that we were the army that got ALL the cool super fluffy extras that no one else got! 3.5ed was amazing... It's awesome really that it lead to GW giving similar treatments to everyone, just unfortunate that the army which started it all has sadly been left to rot as the only true 'have-not'.

The 4th edition codex (2007) and what it meant is an insult that simply can´t be forgotten.

It'd be nice if they could design CSM to work like a real army rather than a punching bag whose primary "tactic" is to advance up the middle of the board providing nice target practice for Little Timmy's SM before being defeated in heroic single combat. After the Black Legion supplement came out where they actually advocated taking 20-man squads with no upgrades to charge the enemy on foot, it became painfully clear that the gak that is Codex: CSM is fully intentional. This is an army that is literally designed to lose. I wouldn't expect anything to be fixed when it's working as intended.

Am I the only one who likes the Boon Table? I find it very Chaos-y! I don't mind the must challenge rule either. I'll admit it doesn't work well all Legions, but I think it's flavourful for say recently turned warbands whose leaders seek the approval of the gods. I think if it was made optional, as per Boon of Mutation, it would be better.

My grievances are the lack of Warband/Legion/God tactics, piss-poor internal and external balance leading to monobuilds, higher point costs than Loyalist equivalents with better options and statlines (this bloody includes Cultists), lack of synergy, and outdated models that should, nay, need redoing.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Am I the only one who likes the Boon Table? I find it very Chaos-y! I don't mind the must challenge rule either. I'll admit it doesn't work well all Legions, but I think it's flavourful for say recently turned warbands whose leaders seek the approval of the gods. I think if it was made optional, as per Boon of Mutation, it would be better.

Champions of Chaos works (worked?) in Fantasy because in Fantasy Chaos characters will (would?) routinely mop the floor with almost everything they encountered.

In 40k? Outside of specific moments, being forced to challenge is usually a disadvantage. And the Boon Table is not "Chaos-y", it's "Jervis-y". A random table for the sake of random tables. Bring the mutations and chaos boons as options you pay for while making your list, and let your champion turn into Daemon Prince or Spawn after the battle ends.

I'd also argue against the multiple books idea. Just look at the current Chaos supplements, Black Legion in particular - £30 for 'here's a few new items plus you've got to take VotLW'. Great. Thanks.

Korinov wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Am I the only one who likes the Boon Table? I find it very Chaos-y! I don't mind the must challenge rule either. I'll admit it doesn't work well all Legions, but I think it's flavourful for say recently turned warbands whose leaders seek the approval of the gods. I think if it was made optional, as per Boon of Mutation, it would be better.

Champions of Chaos works (worked?) in Fantasy because in Fantasy Chaos characters will (would?) routinely mop the floor with almost everything they encountered.

In 40k? Outside of specific moments, being forced to challenge is usually a disadvantage. And the Boon Table is not "Chaos-y", it's "Jervis-y". A random table for the sake of random tables. Bring the mutations and chaos boons as options you pay for while making your list, and let your champion turn into Daemon Prince or Spawn after the battle ends.

Being forced to challenge is a disadvantage, I agree completely. It is a handicap because it reduces our options, but if we win we do gain bonuses - the opponent doesn't. The fluff behind it that makes sense - it's a proud CSM tradition harkening back to Primarchs calling each other out on Isstvan!

Crispy78 wrote:I'd also argue against the multiple books idea. Just look at the current Chaos supplements, Black Legion in particular - £30 for 'here's a few new items plus you've got to take VotLW'. Great. Thanks.

Depends on how the books were done. Nobody is asking for a optional Chaos Artefact lists and being forced to use certain units.

I love the idea of being forced into challenges. It just makes sense fluff wise. Though I'd prefer to either bind that to gods or make them character traits. For example, a champion of Khorne would never back down form a challenge and he's underlings would expect him to challenge too, lest he is seen as unworthy to follow.
Or maybe a system of character traits might work too. Like say, you want a martial character, and you would take this trait where he has to challenge and can't refuse in exchange for some melee buff or something along those lines. More than any other army, strong character matter for csm. So I would like to see a system where that is reflected in some way.

The boons on the other hand suck. I don't so much dislike the idea of getting buffed after winning a challenge, so much as I dislike what you get. It's often a worthless boon and sometimes even detrimental. Chaos is fickle and all, but there just isn't any place for getting punished in a game like this. Seeking and winning challenges is a good idea, but I don't like how they did it.

Especially on your hq's, those are supposed to already have received boons. You'd think that somebdoy that has fought for several thousand years non stop would have received some kind of recognition by the gods. Or you know, would know how to fight his battles (warlord traits), not to mention psychic powers. I'd be down with them letting csm choose these things as an army theme, or at the very least warlord traits in that sense. Of all those who have long life spans, these probably see the most battle no?

Is it silly to worry that Chaos Space Marines may not get a new codex this edition of 40k?
Although I'm not a veteran it appears to me that to overhaul CSM may require a change more radical than a new book. And therefore what could be worse is Chaos get the first new Codex in the new edition of the rules and then each one is subsequently stronger, as has been the case this edition.

Huron black heart wrote:
Is it silly to worry that Chaos Space Marines may not get a new codex this edition of 40k?
Although I'm not a veteran it appears to me that to overhaul CSM may require a change more radical than a new book. And therefore what could be worse is Chaos get the first new Codex in the new edition of the rules and then each one is subsequently stronger, as has been the case this edition.

Nope, it's a pretty valid fear, since we've been turned into the 'test bed army' for our past 2 updates.

I get the feeling that the forthcoming new Thousand Sons plastic kit will give us a hint at what we can eventually expect for our next update... If the Sons get a new kit with 0 options and are left with the same unplayable rules, then odds are pretty solid that GW is going to keep us as "Codex: Imperial Punching Bag".
If however the new plastic set comes with new rules and a couple of options, then our 10+ years of suffering may finally come to an end, and our potential new codex may finally put us back on an even footing with the rest of the game.

Still, the pessimist in me is 99.9% expecting us to remain the lone trashcan level army in the game, because god forbid Little Timmy needs to wait until turn 3 before his Speeeesh Muhreeens get to effortlessly table us.

Compulsory challenges are quite bad. Because not all of the Chaos champions got into their positions of power by being brave......


Basically, I don't think you can make a single codex which covers all of the bases. We'd need one for traitor legions, who don't deserve new and shiny toys but deserve ancient technology that makes loyalist marines poop their power armour. And renegade marines who don't deserve ancient astartes poop making technology. But do deserve more modern technology.

Yeah, it's totally fluffy that a Thousand Sons sorcerer would challenge his enemies to single combat so that he can receive mutations from Tzeentch. I mean he wouldn't want his brain-dead automaton bodyguards who have no free will of their own and whose sole reason for existence is to preserve the life of their sorcerer to think that he's chicken, now would he? And everyone knows that there's nothing that Thousand Sons sorcerers love more than receiving mutations from Tzeentch.

I just a had a thought! There might actually be some hope for chaos! With eternal crusade out, the popularity of chaos marines might rise a bit, and knowing GW, being popular means being given special treatment, let's see if we can get some.

I'm just annoyed about how Cult Marines were handled. How I would've done it? Prepare for wishlisting!
1. Plague Marines have Poisoned (3+) on their knives AND Bolters/Pistols.
2. Berserker Marines are 20 points but come with Chain Axes standard, and gain Rending on their first round of combat.
3. Noise Marines are 19 each, but come standard with Sonic Blasters (now Assault 2) and we cut the cost of Blastmasters and Doom Sirens by 5 points.
4. Rubric Marines can buy Heavy Bolters and Autocannons, and get one additional roll on a table I haven't chosen yet.

Look! All of them have actual niches! Look!

Wishes?
We we all know him and love him...
DOOMRIDER!!!