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So for me, as a player returning after a long break I resently got to break my chaos marines back out and fight some loyalist marines for the first time in years, and man did I just get slapped in the face with all the problems I've been hearing about. However, being that the CSM codex is now one of the older codexes, I have been wondering about an update coming soon, and I'm not talking about the demon kin. So I came to ask you guys about what you think about a 7th Ed update to everyone's favorite spiky bros, and what you'led like to see, think we'll see and when we might see it.

Best guess from most of the reliable rumormongers is next year sometime at the earliest for a whole new codex. As such, nobody has any idea what it might look/play like. Tzeentch is supposed to get some sort of update this summer (new Rubric models, possibly sorcerers, maybe some sort of formations). That's all anybody knows.

I think it's ridiculous that CSM will take 1+ year to get an update.

I'm probably going to start Bolt Action while my 10k in csm collect dust.

Dunno about what the rumors are, but what I'd like to see in a new codex is:

A relic that gives flesh-metal.

- Sorcerers with the ability to generate powers from the divination tree.

- A weaker ATSKNF that gives immunity to fear and prevents them from being swept in exchange for no auto-rallying and no immunity to pinning.

- Warp Talon points drop.

- Upgrade Defiler to a super-heavy walker.

- Cult troops with the exception of Plague Marines need some tweaking.

- There's a lot more, but I'm sitting on three hours of sleep, so..

The most reliable rumor sources, (Sad Panda/Lady Atia), have said don't except a codex & model line overhaul until sometime towards mid 2017...

As for what we need, it's quite simple really;
a) A complete model line overhaul from the ground up, on the level that Dark Eldar received back in 2009.
Without the models to support new toys, we're doomed to remain the game's worst army.

b) Rules that aren't still based off of 4th edition pricing, and 3rd edition 'Rhino Assault Rush' styles of game play.

Give me:

Legion/Warband Tactics.
New resculpts of Finecast stuff
Some new super-heavy
Plastic Dreadclaws
More Special Characters (the way the fluff is progressing I want to see Sevatar Return as he's currently MIA) afterall I guess there must be a few more they could do Warsmith Honsou (or whatever his name is), etc.
Fleshmetal upgrade for my Lord
And to keep onto some AP 2 Relic weapon that is not unwieldy (I hope we don't lose this).

There are a lot of things in need of improvement. Without swamping the thread with bloated wishlists and fanwank, I'd ask for the following as a minimum:

- A list that is versatile enough to represent everything from raw recruit to Legion Veteran as a full template. I should be capable of playing a hardened core of veteran Astartes straight from the walls of Terra, just as much as I should be capable of playing Huron's space pirates and Bile's Genefreaks. More to the point, I should be capable of mixing them as much as I can play them on their own strengths.

- A wargear list that actually feels Chaotic, rather than simply sparse. I'd like Ectoplasma and daemonic sentience, I'd like warp portals and Dark Mechanicus. On the other side of the coin I'd like to see Destroyer-kit like chem munitions and rad grenades, as much as Dreadclaws and Deimos-pattern vehicles. Rapier batteries and Breachers pilfered straight from 30k, with the addition of Daemonic rounds and warplore. Tainted melee weapons and ensorcelled armour that is actually on-par with the Loyalists rather than strictly inferior.

- An identifiable playstyle that isn't 4 editions out of date. For example, building a Tau army is building a shooty army. Every unit you take is either presenting a unique type of firepower, or amplifying the units around them. You build an army greater than the sum of its parts. In contrast, a CSM army buys units, You buy your HQ and your Obliterators, and everything works as an individual rather than as part of a machine. Units are bought because they are individually powerful rather than with consideration for any synergy with the army around them.

- Units being given the tools they need to complete their job. We shouldn't be paying 20pts for a melee-MEQ unless we have a transport big enough to deliver them. We shouldn't be paying 30pts for an anti-MEQ melee unit that cannot assault into cover. We shouldn't be paying 24pts for a unit who's sole purpose is dumping AP3 bolters, when we have a flier that does it far better and far more efficiently than they ever could.

This isn't asking for power, I'm asking for the right tools and then give me a cost representative of their power afterwards. If a unit is pumped up enough to start eating HQs and break units, I'll happily pay the points to do that. I just want to feel like the fluff says I should.

Legions list, add marks, for free, done.

We need more (though that would help).

Better stats - these are veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are ancient, experienced, deadly killing machines. Compared to them a modern space marine is a child. Make the stats reflect this.

Increased access to 30K issue gear and vehicles - the Legions should still have masses of pre-Heresy issue tech at hand. Let them have it.

A more legion escue structure - these are LEGIONS dammit.

Massive buffs to All the special characters and cult marines.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Better stats - these are veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are ancient, experienced, deadly killing machines. Compared to them a modern space marine is a child. Make the stats reflect this.

Increased access to 30K issue gear and vehicles - the Legions should still have masses of pre-Heresy issue tech at hand. Let them have it.

A more legion escue structure - these are LEGIONS dammit.

Massive buffs to All the special characters and cult marines.

I think it's better to have that as an option rather than the only way to do it otherwise you end up with it being: "We just turned to Chaos and got WAY better at fighting and then we found loads of old technology! It's great!".

Drop mandatory champions from each squad.
Drop Boon table because this is not warhammer fantasy!

Give rhinos an option for open topped.
Give helbrutes additional attack to be on par with drednaughts.
Make cultist into exact copy of RH infantry platoon and mutant rabbles. Why should they be 5ppm and have 6+ armor and no free swapping pistols for guns?

Grant army wide free Stubborn. BECAUSE they refuse to admit they are wrong!!! Provide RH sigil as an option to ignore 1st failed ld check.

Possibly remove marks and replace with Daemon of rules.

Replace Defiler with soul grinder. Make both model count as Soul grinder and possibly change them into GMC or MC.

Turn fiends and helbrutes and heldrake and into MC...seriously these are MC not vehicles...

Make obliterators cost 55ppm. Arbitrary reasoning because 70ppm is too over costed to fire one gun. If these where MC and can fire more than 1 gun and they can shoot 2 guns then 70ppm is appropriate. Also add a 48" gun to pair with lascannons.

Allow CSM infantry and vehicles to ignore weapons that gets hot. This hot plasma should fuel demonic enegies. Make all plasma weapon get +1 str like Ectoplasma. Make this all free and unique to CSM like the original plasma gets hot rule from 2nd ed.

Make helstorm autocannons available on all platforms capable of carry autocannons.

pm713 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Better stats - these are veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are ancient, experienced, deadly killing machines. Compared to them a modern space marine is a child. Make the stats reflect this.

Increased access to 30K issue gear and vehicles - the Legions should still have masses of pre-Heresy issue tech at hand. Let them have it.

A more legion escue structure - these are LEGIONS dammit.

Massive buffs to All the special characters and cult marines.

I think it's better to have that as an option rather than the only way to do it otherwise you end up with it being: "We just turned to Chaos and got WAY better at fighting and then we found loads of old technology! It's great!".

Thing is that is the fluff. Sure there are traitor chapters but they can be represented as well, with basic squads which are essentially Marine squads complete with ATSKNF and less weapon options but also cheaper.

 master of ordinance wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Better stats - these are veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are ancient, experienced, deadly killing machines. Compared to them a modern space marine is a child. Make the stats reflect this.

Increased access to 30K issue gear and vehicles - the Legions should still have masses of pre-Heresy issue tech at hand. Let them have it.

A more legion escue structure - these are LEGIONS dammit.

Massive buffs to All the special characters and cult marines.

I think it's better to have that as an option rather than the only way to do it otherwise you end up with it being: "We just turned to Chaos and got WAY better at fighting and then we found loads of old technology! It's great!".

Thing is that is the fluff. Sure there are traitor chapters but they can be represented as well, with basic squads which are essentially Marine squads complete with ATSKNF and less weapon options but also cheaper.

Thank you it just feels so wrong for 1000 year old super soldiers to be out gunned, over powered, and run off the field by scouts who havent even gained a carapace yet

 master of ordinance wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Better stats - these are veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are ancient, experienced, deadly killing machines. Compared to them a modern space marine is a child. Make the stats reflect this.

Increased access to 30K issue gear and vehicles - the Legions should still have masses of pre-Heresy issue tech at hand. Let them have it.

A more legion escue structure - these are LEGIONS dammit.

Massive buffs to All the special characters and cult marines.

I think it's better to have that as an option rather than the only way to do it otherwise you end up with it being: "We just turned to Chaos and got WAY better at fighting and then we found loads of old technology! It's great!".

Thing is that is the fluff. Sure there are traitor chapters but they can be represented as well, with basic squads which are essentially Marine squads complete with ATSKNF and less weapon options but also cheaper.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the fluff is that there are no more "legions" other than Abby's coalition. Instead there are various war bands of various sizes that sometimes work together but just as often fight amongst themselves. Not saying there shouldn't be legion like rules for war bands that adhere to the old legionary ways, but it is chaos, and thus chaotic. Pretty much the antithesis of structured legionary ways.

I wonder how all the FW Heresy stuff will shape a future CSM codex. Hm.

All in all, I guess I'll be happy enough if they release a plastic kit that mimics the style of the RT renegades.

Figure we're right in the worst spot where we didn't get a new book before they moved to this campaign patches scheme.

CSM need a total overhaul not a bloated low end decurion.

3th book 8th editon

 oldzoggy wrote:
3th book 8th editon

Hopefully not that long, maybe just after loyalist marine supplement four

 Formosa wrote:
Legions list, add marks, for free, done.

This.

I've had chance to spend some time with the actual Legion red book in the last 48 hours, and it's a masterclass in providing dense quantities of options, that operate mechanically and thematically, without (that I've seen so far) offering anything that outright outperforms anything else significantly, at least not at first pass, without countering that with some other drawback or limitation.

That this ability should exist within the organization and isn't being deployed to transform the whole of the mainstream flagship game is a pretty serious oversight, IMO.

Although I'd add a few daemon engines on top of a Marks system, as, while admitting I'm probably in the minority, I do like the odd dinobot. Perhaps some sort of walker/crawler/flier system where one could build the engine to one's tastes around a few different base archetypes tailored to tactical or thematic needs?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Legions list, add marks, for free, done.

This.

I've had chance to spend some time with the actual Legion red book in the last 48 hours, and it's a masterclass in providing dense quantities of options, that operate mechanically and thematically, without (that I've seen so far) offering anything that outright outperforms anything else significantly, at least not at first pass, without countering that with some other drawback or limitation.

That this ability should exist within the organization and isn't being deployed to transform the whole of the mainstream flagship game is a pretty serious oversight, IMO.

Although I'd add a few daemon engines on top of a Marks system, as, while admitting I'm probably in the minority, I do like the odd dinobot. Perhaps some sort of walker/crawler/flier system where one could build the engine to one's tastes around a few different base archetypes tailored to tactical or thematic needs?

Probably a bad question but what's the legion red book? Although I do agree, the mauler/forge fiends are some of my favorite of the models in the army, but I would prefer some more traditional vehicles as well.

Dino bots need to go, they are terrible terrible models and move chaos even further down the cartoony route, if they must stay, make them mc as they should be, same with the hell turkey, I'd even make that a flying gargantuan myself.

 Formosa wrote:
Dino bots need to go, they are terrible terrible models and move chaos even further down the cartoony route, if they must stay, make them mc as they should be, same with the hell turkey, I'd even make that a flying gargantuan myself.

That would be nice, if I had my way, they'd stay as MCs and chaos would get some more traditionol vehicles, like some Hersey era tanks, or dark mechanis pattern land raiders

At this point I primarily want new models and more importantly, an identity. Be it legions or renegades, though I would prefer either/or, not both in one book. Ideally one book per alignment, but that's whishlisting. As in one legion book, and then they can go ahead and release the individual legions via campaign expansions if they want to. And one book for renegades, since to me, they are quite different from both the legions and their loyalist brethren.

The legions are way more experienced and much more corrupted or are literally straight from the horus heresy via time warp shenanigens. These guys are a completely different breed of space marines in comparison to the newer loyalists. And they DO have lots of resources, albeit different from loyalists. They have made countless deals with dark mechanicum and have raided for millennia, not to mention all the more exotic gear borne from dealing with the daemonic, whether the initial creator survived the deal or not.

Renegades have neither the loyalist gear, nor the legion experience or resources. Often such bands form from desperation, so even if an entire chapter goes rogue, by the time they recover, they will have lost most of their stuff but come out with some unique form of corruption. Changing the survivors forever. In that sense they are more flexible than the legions in what you can do with them. These are perfect for campaign books imho. And tbh, I would prefer GW go this route and then forgeworld can eventually do legions proper. It's kinda the next logical step after the horus heresy anyway. They already have a few super sexy corrupted power armoured models after all.

There is obviously some overlap between the two, but I think there's enough to warrant separate books, especially considering campaign updates. I think it would benefit csm in the long run.

Quite simple; 6 books, not 1.

Chaos Space Marines: Renegades

- The C:SM of the Chaos side similar to what currently exists but updated with more Renegade lines; Razorbacks, LR variants, etc.

Chaos Space Marines: Chaos Legions

- The "Grey Knights" (plus DA, BA and SW rolledin) of Chaos. More expensive, vastly different options available, wilder, more exotic, more powerful units. Access to Heresy wargear and unique units.

Chaos Space Marines: Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh Daemonkin


- As you'd expect. Nurgle would have a system based on the number of units you kill that can increase resilence or utilise witchfire or nova-esque effects. Tzeentch would have a system based on Warp Charges. Slaanesh would have a Blood Tithe esque table but based on another system other than destroying units. All 3 would be based on the update renegades book.

Chaos: Dark Mechanicum

- Like AdMech forces but different, more brutal and destructive.

Ugh

No.

The one thing 40K does not need is more books not to get updated, more rules to duplicate the effects of other rules just with different names and greater expense to access rules.

There is nothing simple about 6 books, besides, going back to the FW paradigm, you could do it in two, one for the core list and one for the unique units and other deviations to allow for different flavours of force.

If you want to play renegades, the vanilla marine book is right there. They maintain their chapter tactics of the chapter that they used to be, they haven't dumped all their good gear off into the warp yet and haven't gotten the notice of the gods, so don't come with marks. I've never understood why the CSM book caters to renegades.

Legions are what the vast majority of the CSM playerbase wants, let them have chapter tactics befitting their legions and maybe a couple more to represent warbands from the red corsairs or similar.

Fix the horrendous costs on the majority of their units like the ubquitous warp talons, possessed, thousand sons, bersekers, defiler and mutilators, as well as giving their dreadnaughts the base attacks to match the vanilla SM, the ability to mark daemon engines (and affect their WS & BS), a rebalancing of marks so it's not a choice of Nurgle or nothing,

Fix the wording on primary detatchment so you can have cult troops as troops with the appropriate HQ in an allied detatchment, streamline the boon table so it's actually useful and remove the must challenge requirement for non-lord characters. Allow marked characters to take cult upgrades as it's galling for my Tz sorceror to be the only infantry unit without inferno bolts.

A return to daemonic upgrades as well as flavourful relics like kai guns and bedlam staves would be nice, as would some actual options in the base kits instead of 1 of each of the same 3rd ed guns.

A new CSM kit that has some actual detail on the kit instead of smudges and smears where details are meant to be, a decent multi part kit for cultists, a kit at all for chosen, new possessed, non-finecast oblits (dual kit with muties if you must keep them in the dex instead of rolling their abilites into oblits), plastic cult troops (including new plastic zerkers), a new Abbadon and Lucy, 40kified skullcrushers.

Some decent psychic powers so taking a marker sorcer isn't just plain shooting yourself in the foot, especailly Tzeentch.

A decent decurion base that not only doesn't cost an exorbitant amount of points, but one that rewards cult players for taking their gods number of troops and rewards non-cult players for taking maxed or 10+ man squads. The ability to play mono cult, unmarked and a mix via core and auxilary options would be highly appreciated.

Either T6 or eternal warrior for princes, since it's really not that hard to kill what is effectively 4 marine bikes stapled together.

I think that'd be a good start.

I agree that half a dozen of books isn't a good idea. It should be entirely within the realms of feasibility to make a single decent core list that is then modified by legion tactics and/or marks. If you really want to you can just have the marks and veteran skills in the first book to represent the Black Legion and the big four and then later release a smaller companion book that has rules and special characters for the remaining four legions. Veteran skills, if done right, will still allow you to decently represent the others, you just won't have special units or the like.

To be entirely honest, at a certain point I also thought that multiple books for Chaos would be a good idea. Then it was pointed out to me that in order to build a decent force, I would need to expend a ridiculous amount of money just to get the ridiculously overpriced books.

Everything can be rolled in a single codex if done right. Haines' 3.5 did it right (although he went a bit overboard with some options).

Except loyalists seem to be able to get by just fine with half a dozen books and are able to make it work perfectly, and usually only have to buy one or two books if they want allies. There's no reason Chaos can't do the same or any other faction for that matter.