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I know that this is an older topic but I'm just getting into daemons now so I wanted some clarification.

I understand they get flickering fire for free but can I get psychic focus from maelific ontop of a rolled power since I do that before the game begins?

That would give a lvl 1 mastery group 3 psychic powers.

If they are mastery 2 would they get 4 psychic powers?

This applies to heralds as well I suppose.

Thanks for the help!

They get one roll on divination, malefic, or change regardless of unit size, as well as having flickering fire from chaos psychic focus.

There is considerable debate about whether or not they also get regular psychic focus, you won't find a consensus on that here. Speak with your opponent about it before the game.

My group thinks they can get psychic focus as well, due to chaos psychic focus not being a "generated" power. But that's HIWPI and your group will have their own feelings about it.

Why don't they get multiple powers based off of mastery level?

ty for response

It's in their codex page. They're a mastery level 1 psyker that generates more warp charge dice based on the size of the unit.

They never actually become greater than a mastery level 1 psyker, hence they only get one generated power.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
They get one roll on divination, malefic, or change regardless of unit size, as well as having flickering fire from chaos psychic focus.

They don't generate from Divination, only Change (as per Codex) and Malefic (as per 7th Edition FAQ).

Whoop! That's correct, no divination for them, sorry OP

 Aijec wrote:
I know that this is an older topic but I'm just getting into daemons now so I wanted some clarification.

I understand they get flickering fire for free but can I get psychic focus from maelific ontop of a rolled power since I do that before the game begins?

That would give a lvl 1 mastery group 3 psychic powers.

If they are mastery 2 would they get 4 psychic powers?

This applies to heralds as well I suppose.

Thanks for the help!

Remember if they generate all their powers from a single discipline they get Psychic focus. so if they generate their only power from maelific, they get the primaris for maelific as well.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
I know that this is an older topic but I'm just getting into daemons now so I wanted some clarification.

I understand they get flickering fire for free but can I get psychic focus from maelific ontop of a rolled power since I do that before the game begins?

That would give a lvl 1 mastery group 3 psychic powers.

If they are mastery 2 would they get 4 psychic powers?

This applies to heralds as well I suppose.

Thanks for the help!

Remember if they generate all their powers from a single discipline they get Psychic focus. so if they generate their only power from maelific, they get the primaris for maelific as well.

Chaos Psychic Focus is used instead of Psychic Focus. Meaning they get the Primaris of their God's table (in this case Tzeentch's Chaos Demon table which is "Change", and the Primaris being "Flickering Fire of Tzeentch"). Apparently there is some debate about whether Psychic Focus still gets used on top of this which, while the RAW may be debatable, is clearly not RAI imo. Otherwise Chaos Psykers would end up with a free extra Primaris power in alot of cases - sounds like a good deal if you're a Chaos Player but its a little hard to say its RAI with a straight face.

So Pink Horrors could roll once on Change (picking up whatever power they rolled, plus Flickering Fire) or they could roll on Malefic Demonology (again picking whatever power they rolled or in this case swapping it for the Primaris "Summoning", as well as gaining Flickering Fire from the Change table due to Chaos Focus)

I could very easily tell you that I believe it's RAI with a straight face. They are made out of warp energy, a splinter of a god. There is no rule that corresponds to the first sentence in your post anywhere in the rulebook. But I've spent far too much time debating this very thing in the past.

My entire group of non-chaos players also would tell you they believe it's RAI with a straight face.

OP, no one really knows how the rule is supposed to work for certain. Its up to you and your opponent entirely. That's really all you need to know. With many of the psychic rules, there is no RAW, it's too ambiguous. All we have left is HYWPI.

For tournament rulings. Nova played it as yes they can use chaotic psychic focus AND regular Psyichic focus. ITC only allows them chaotic psychic focus and not regular.

 GoonBandito wrote:

Chaos Psychic Focus is used instead of Psychic Focus.

Please cite the rule that states what you claim. I can not find where it says Chaos Psychic Focus is used instead of Psychic Focus.

Page 22 says "if a psyker has a mark of chaos or is a daemon of a particular chaos god" under the Chaos Pyschic focus entry. Pink Horrors are a daemon of Tzeentch so that definitely applies to them.

If your argument is that they should get both effects, the psychic focus entry says if they gain a psychic power from a different discipline then they lose psychic focus. As soon as you generate a spell from a different school you lose the opportunity to use psychic focus because you have powers from different disciplines.

I've seen people argue that the chaos psychic focus power isn't a generated one to say that it doesn't stop the regular psychic focus, but then again force is generated at the same time yet they specifically use that power as an example of one which won't mess up psychic focus. If the generated spells at the start of the game don't mess up psychic focus, then they wouldn't need to mention Force at all.

Part of the reason for the Chaos Focus rule is because of how Chaos Marines' codex was set up. A Marked Sorcerer that was ML 2 or higher, was pretty much forced to take two Disciplines, so would lose out on any access to Psychic Focus. For an ML 1, they were forced to take their own Discipline, so both Chaos Focus and Psychic Focus were the same thing.

Where it goes from there... I'll let you Witch-lovers figure it out.

Like I said, there is only HIWPI.

You either think they can get both or you don't. The rules are ambiguous to the point no one can truly know. There is no RAW answer because it boils down to how you interpret words.

To me, automatically knowing a power in addition to any others is not the same as generating it or gaining it over the course of the game.

It's all about what you and your opponent want.

 GoonBandito wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
They get one roll on divination, malefic, or change regardless of unit size, as well as having flickering fire from chaos psychic focus.

They don't generate from Divination, only Change (as per Codex) and Malefic (as per 7th Edition FAQ).

Wow, my whole daemon life has been a lie. Well... at least the past year or so. I always thought pinkies got divination. I guess when I looked at the rulebook I glanced down and saw the psyker rule for the herald, not the pinkies, as they are on the same page.

I am pretty sure I even did that against another daemon player, hell, I think the other daemon players in my area even think pinkies get divination. Well this will change things a little bit. No more pink horror allies for my renegades, that is for sure. Not exactly useful anymore now are they?

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Page 22 says "if a psyker has a mark of chaos or is a daemon of a particular chaos god" under the Chaos Pyschic focus entry. Pink Horrors are a daemon of Tzeentch so that definitely applies to them.

If your argument is that they should get both effects, the psychic focus entry says if they gain a psychic power from a different discipline then they lose psychic focus.

Not quite, it says if they gain a psychic power from a different discipline during the game, they lose psychic focus.

The power granted from Chaos Psychic focus is not gained during the game.

As soon as you generate a spell from a different school you lose the opportunity to use psychic focus because you have powers from different disciplines.

Sure, but the power associated with Chaos Psychic focus is not a Generated power.

I've seen people argue that the chaos psychic focus power isn't a generated one to say that it doesn't stop the regular psychic focus, but then again force is generated at the same time yet they specifically use that power as an example of one which won't mess up psychic focus. If the generated spells at the start of the game don't mess up psychic focus, then they wouldn't need to mention Force at all.

Force is never generated either.

To generate a power "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins...In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic Phase chapter, Generating Psychic Powers section).


There are two ways to generate Psychic powers:
1) "In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated."
2) "Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

I think the issue with Psychic Focus (PF) vs Chaos focus (CF) depends on what context you use.

I believe that a Psyker must "generate" ALL there powers from the same discipline to gain PF. CF interferes with this as a Psyker cannot "generate" all of his powers form the same discipline. 1 of the Psychic powers will not be generated, it is gained.

So a ML3 Tzeencth Herald has 4 powers. 3 "generated" from Daemonology + Flickering Fire. Not ALL of his powers were generated from one discipline, since he 'Gained" Flicker Fire for being a Tzeentch Psyker
Force is not from a Discipline and is the example of having an extra power that doesn't interfere with PF. Every power given by CF is from a Discipline and conflicts with PF.

Back on topic, Pink Horrors (no matter how big the unit) are ML1 and can generate 1 power from either Tzeentch (see CotW for full table) or Daemonology. They will also always have Flickering Fire, preventing them from gaining a "third" power via PF.

--

It isn't gained either.

It is "automatically known, in addition to any other powers".

Galef, all of what you said is fine, but it's your opinion and as such is HYWPI, just like anyone's solution to this problem.

Once again, GW could have made it cut and dry but didn't.

My problem is that the rules seem to assume you look at all powers known, whether or not they were generated. For example, as DR pointed out, Force is never generated, however, it is specifically mentioned as a power to ignore since it is not from a discipline. Broodlords, do not generate any powers, however, GW changed the wording for the Primaris, presumably, since Broodlords get it via Psychic Focus.
HIWPI, you look at all powers a psyker knows in order to determine whether or not it gets Psychic Focus. Since Daemons/CSM have Chaos Psychic Focus, they will never be able to get Psychic Focus.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It isn't gained either.

It is "automatically known, in addition to any other powers".

Galef, all of what you said is fine, but it's your opinion and as such is HYWPI, just like anyone's solution to this problem.

Once again, GW could have made it cut and dry but didn't.

I agree. GW should do a better job making things "cut and dry". The issue with HIWPI, is that it looks cut and dry to me. A lot of people put importance on "generated", "known", "gained" etc. The problem is that GW uses these interchangeably. In the same paragraph, they start by saying "generated", then switched to "gained" in the next sentence.

This is just like the "How many powers can a psyker use" issue. First sentence of the second paragraph of the first page of the Psychic section says: "The number of powers a psyker can use depends on the ML". At first cut & dry. I have an ML1 psyker, he can cast 1 power. This gets muddied (somehow) later when it talks about switching between Psykers, saying you can pick who is casting back and forth as long as you have enough WC.

My general HIWPI rule is that if something is in dispute: Always assume the outcome with the least advantage to the controlling player (i.e. me). So when I use my Horrors, they generate 1 power from Daemonology, swapping for Summoning if I wish, and they can only attempt to cast 1 power per phase. This is how I police myself and I have never had and issue during a game because of it.

Gee, it sure would be nice if instead of the "Roll off" rule, GW had a rule like that

--

 DeathReaper wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Page 22 says "if a psyker has a mark of chaos or is a daemon of a particular chaos god" under the Chaos Pyschic focus entry. Pink Horrors are a daemon of Tzeentch so that definitely applies to them.

If your argument is that they should get both effects, the psychic focus entry says if they gain a psychic power from a different discipline then they lose psychic focus.

Not quite, it says if they gain a psychic power from a different discipline during the game, they lose psychic focus.

The power granted from Chaos Psychic focus is not gained during the game.

As soon as you generate a spell from a different school you lose the opportunity to use psychic focus because you have powers from different disciplines.

Sure, but the power associated with Chaos Psychic focus is not a Generated power.

I've seen people argue that the chaos psychic focus power isn't a generated one to say that it doesn't stop the regular psychic focus, but then again force is generated at the same time yet they specifically use that power as an example of one which won't mess up psychic focus. If the generated spells at the start of the game don't mess up psychic focus, then they wouldn't need to mention Force at all.

Force is never generated either.

To generate a power "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins...In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic Phase chapter, Generating Psychic Powers section).


There are two ways to generate Psychic powers:
1) "In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated."
2) "Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

Notice in the clause that it specifies "if a psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force" then those are the ones not considered for determining psychic focus. Their example does not say if a power like force is generated, it says if he "has" any which indicates possession at all is the problem, not just generation.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Notice in the clause that it specifies "if a psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force" then those are the ones not considered for determining psychic focus. Their example does not say if a power like force is generated, it says if he "has" any which indicates possession at all is the problem, not just generation.

The rules for Psychic focus is are talking about generated powers.

 DeathReaper wrote:

The rules for Psychic focus is are talking about generated powers.

Are they? PF states "generates all powers...". Should the focus be on 'generated' or 'all'? If I roll my powers from the same discipline, yet have CF, can I say I have generated ALL my powers?

Obviously some would say Yes, all powers that you "generated" were from the same discipline, here's a free Primarus
However others would say No, citing that not ALL of your powers were actually generated, since you received a power from another discipline via CF. If you didn't roll a power you have, you have NOT generated all your powers from the same discipline.

I can see it both ways, thus I always go with the lesser outcome (i.e. less powers) to avoid any in-game arguments.
If I go with the more powers option and that turns out to be "wrong", I was cheating.
If I go with the less powers option and that turns out to be "wrong", I was just handicapping myself, which is perfectly ok..

--

 Galef wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

The rules for Psychic focus is are talking about generated powers.

Are they?

Yes.

The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."

This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.

To generate a power "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins...In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic Phase chapter, Generating Psychic Powers section).

So there are two ways to generate a power. granted powers, like the one from Chaos Psychic Focus, are not generated and as such you can still gain Psychic Focus, because you have generated all of your powers from the same discipline.

In context they are talking about powers you generate.

OH DEAR SWEET SPACE EMPORER NOT THIS AGAIN.

 DeathReaper wrote:
This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
OH DEAR SWEET SPACE EMPORER NOT THIS AGAIN.

 DeathReaper wrote:
This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

It really is not.

Do not ignore the context.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
OH DEAR SWEET SPACE EMPORER NOT THIS AGAIN.

 DeathReaper wrote:
This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

It really is not.

Do not ignore the context.

That's nice.

I personally do not see where it is stated that the powers you start with don't count as generated ones. I'm sure it is clear to you that GW wanted pink horrors to go from 1 power in 6th edition to 3 powers in 7th, but it does not seem clear to me and it's not the way I play mine. To me, the rules seems to be designed to give chaos and daemon psykers the same new benefit all other psykers got in 7th, an ability to get one more free power.

I usually compare situations like this to a football game between rival teams. One side will swear there was a foul on the play while the other side swears it was a perfectly legal move. Their perceptions are biased by what they want to happen. In this case though, I am a daemons players and I just don't see that interpretation in the rules.

1. The Psyker generates all his powers from the same discipline.
2. All the powers the Psyker generates are from the same discipline.

Some people think Psychic Focus requires 1. Others think it requires 2. Some people don't see any difference between 1 and 2. Your interpretation will depend on what kind of person you are.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
1. The Psyker generates all his powers from the same discipline.
2. All the powers the Psyker generates are from the same discipline.

Some people think Psychic Focus requires 1. Others think it requires 2. Some people don't see any difference between 1 and 2. Your interpretation will depend on what kind of person you are.

I would amend 1 & 2 to the following for clarity:

1. The Psyker generates all his "rollable" powers from the same discipline.
2. All the powers the Psyker "knows" have been generated "and" are from the same discipline.

#1 implies that is doesn't matter how many "extra" powers you know, as long as all your voluntary actions have been rolled in the same discipline, you get the free power.
#2 indicates that all the powers known need to be generated. Any extra powers (except Force) will result in not all of you powers being generated.

Example:
Pink Horrors are ML1, always have Flickering Fire and want to roll on Malefic.
If #1 is true, then they have rolled their 1 power from the same discipline and now have 3 powers: 1 "generate", 1 Chaos focus, 1 Psychic focus
If #2 is true, then by default they will have 1 "generate" power and 1 not generated power, meaning PF cannot be given.

Personally, I am for #2. If Chaos Focus gives me a free power, I can no longer say that I have "generated all my powers", since 1 of my powers will NEVER be generated.