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So im just going to throw this out here, what if GW had kept WFB and just had it split into WFB and AoS?
Somthing along the lines of Chaos Daemons with models having interlapping rules in the two games.

Double the profit for GW, just have to write new rules for WFB is all.

 Nurgle wrote:
So im just going to throw this out here, what if GW had kept WFB and just had it split into WFB and AoS?
Somthing along the lines of Chaos Daemons with models having interlapping rules in the two games.

Double the profit for GW, just have to write new rules for WFB is all.

If you start from the premise that WFB wasn't pulling its' weight for GW financially, then look at AoS from that starting point a lot of the changes make sense.
Comp, core tax, 1 box rarely meant 1 unit like it does in 40k, minis lacking 'wow' factor because they have to tesselate on squares, high buy-in, army book development cycles/bulk releases, etc. etc.
The downside is that if those chains of reasoning are correct, then maintaining WFB without significant changes renders those decisions pointless, because you still have to support the very problems you were hoping to get rid of.
It'd be like a fat kid deciding to lose weight by exercising, but eating a box of Krispy Kreme before every workout to make sure he had enough energy.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Personally, I think that Ronnie Renton should crow louder and louder about all the WHFB customers he's getting, nothing will stick in GW's ire like hearing this and they may decide to bring back a living rulebook or something like just to scorch the earth for other companies.

While I agree...at the same time GW looked at the numbers and realized they could afford to lose those customers as there number were not growing. That was sort of the whole point of the Warscrolls for each army that came out last summer. Grab who you can who MIGHT like AoS and so so long (and thanks for all the fish!) to the rest.

Remember WHFB was canned because it was not selling and new players were not coming in. We can argue to death as to WHY that was *cough* Rules! *cough* but at the end of the day all 15 armies were 15% of sales. As far as GW is concerned Ronnie can have them.

And I'm sure Ronnie will have no qualms with it. Meanwhile the disgruntled vets are siding with Mantic vs GW, piling additional points for Ronnie.

I am pretty sure that if Kings of War grows big enough GW will have to do something about it. But I personally have no idea about how much that enough will be.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:


I am pretty sure that if Kings of War grows big enough GW will have to do something about it. But I personally have no idea about how much that enough will be.

Well it's taken them a few weeks since GW canned the whole TK line to show their Empire of Dust concept art at this years Salute.

My 9th age UD army is happy.

jouso wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:


I am pretty sure that if Kings of War grows big enough GW will have to do something about it. But I personally have no idea about how much that enough will be.

Well it's taken them a few weeks since GW canned the whole TK line to show their Empire of Dust concept art at this years Salute.

My 9th age UD army is happy.

I am guessing we'll have Brets after Empire of Dust.

Let's see what they got

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

And I'm sure Ronnie will have no qualms with it. Meanwhile the disgruntled vets are siding with Mantic vs GW, piling additional points for Ronnie.

I am pretty sure that if Kings of War grows big enough GW will have to do something about it. But I personally have no idea about how much that enough will be.

Oh I quite agree, KoW is a very good tournament game. It plays fast and allows enough modelling freedom that I hope it gets bigger. We can argue back and forth about Mantic's minis but I think it's fair to say they are getting better in that department.

GW probably will have to respond if things keep going the way they are. At the very least release a larger scale version of AoS with regiment rules and those movement trays for round minis like they did with War of the Ring. They made too much of an investment in AoS to completely can it.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

And I'm sure Ronnie will have no qualms with it. Meanwhile the disgruntled vets are siding with Mantic vs GW, piling additional points for Ronnie.

I am pretty sure that if Kings of War grows big enough GW will have to do something about it. But I personally have no idea about how much that enough will be.

Oh I quite agree, KoW is a very good tournament game. It plays fast and allows enough modelling freedom that I hope it gets bigger. We can argue back and forth about Mantic's minis but I think it's fair to say they are getting better in that department.

GW probably will have to respond if things keep going the way they are. At the very least release a larger scale version of AoS with regiment rules and those movement trays for round minis like they did with War of the Ring. They made too much of an investment in AoS to completely can it.

Indeed, I agree with that assessment, especially on the possible increment of a large scale version of AoS with that specific movement tray (It immediately came to mind when I first saw that AoS boxes were beign repacked with round bases). I think it's a matter of time.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
While I like 15mm models in general, I haven't been able to find enough 15mm models that I actually like aesthetically to get in to 15mm WHFB. Some armies aren't too bad, some armies aren't well represented, some armies are well represented but the models are pretty mediocre.

I quite like the current aesthetic of WHFB Orcs and Goblins and as of yet I haven't seen anything in 15mm that satisfies me. Same with Lizardmen. And those are my 2 main WHFB interests.

It seems like you could make a decent Bretonnian army as there's a lot of 15mm historics from the 1300-1500 sort of period. I also remember seeing a bunch of decent looking skeletons which would be a good basis for a VC force.

15mm can cover just about everything.

O&G have:
Splintered Light:
http://www.splinteredlightminis.com/orcsandgoblins.html
Demonworld:
http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/demonworld-15mm-c-76/demonworld-classic-c-76_151/orcs-c-76_151_77/
http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/demonworld-15mm-c-76/demonworld-classic-c-76_151/goblins-c-76_151_100/
And Magister Militum:
http://www.magistermilitum.com/scale/15-mm.html#order=name&limit=36&p=1&dir=ASC&cat[]=59679&cat[]=59776

Lizards are a bit tougher, but try
Magister Militum
http://www.magistermilitum.com/scale/15-mm.html#order=name&limit=36&p=1&dir=ASC&cat[]=59679&cat[]=59855
Khurasan:
http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/15mmfantasy.html

I am sure there are more with just a bit of looking....

 VeteranNoob wrote:
With a new setting they can finally do for fantasy what has been so successful for 40k and have an infinite space for fiction. They can go back and create new parts of the realms and BL authors have a big sandbox this time. As the authors have said with Fantasy there was a limited amount of narrative possibilities unless you opened up pocket dimensions or. chaos realms. BL was able to go back in time and do time of legends but until they decided to let the timeline advance it just writes itself into a corner. I wish we saw more from the Cathay, Araby , Nippon, etc but still . This is a great move for the BL coverage even though they face the challenge of starting everything over, and for many, in contrast to the world that was.

It's a "great move" for BL coverage if you enjoy the type of pointless, stake-less, bombastic, world-ending catastrofiction that is evidently all some BL authors are capable of writing. Creating an emotive, affecting narrative within the constraints of an existing world isn't a negative if you actually like that existing world and find its people interesting, that's why we have tons of fiction set in, you know, our own world in our own time - an author writing a book about NYPD detectives or a French doctor in wartime or an African politician battling conspiracy and corruption isn't whinging that they have "limited narrative possibilities" because they can't just blow up Africa on a whim or deploy the Deus Ex Astartes to save the day when they write themselves into a corner.

If BL authors couldn't handle writing WHFB fiction(and evidently it's not impossible, since we have plenty of great WHFB novels), the solution is to hire better authors, not blow up the setting and replace it with consequence-free pulp so your present stable of cheapie-hires don't have to bother improving.

It's like how there were dudes on the Khemri forum that were whining about how you couldn't write interesting stories about the Tomb Kings (post deadding, that is). Just not enough imagination, or focus on character. Mad kings are always a great foil for a main character's struggles.

Anvildude wrote:
It's like how there were dudes on the Khemri forum that were whining about how you couldn't write interesting stories about the Tomb Kings (post deadding, that is). Just not enough imagination, or focus on character. Mad kings are always a great foil for a main character's struggles.

I can't fathom how someone can look at "undead Ancient Egypt with magic and Renaissance-era tomb robbers" and think "nowp, no basis for a story there..."

Christ you could get two or three decent novels out of a Ciaphas Cain-style Indiana Jones parody alone.

I personally would love to see a sort of violent Jeeves and Wooster thing, with an exhasperated Liche Priest or Tomb Herald having to deal with a delusional King who's alternately convinced he's completely impervious to all damage, and thinking he's still Mortal.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Anvildude wrote:
It's like how there were dudes on the Khemri forum that were whining about how you couldn't write interesting stories about the Tomb Kings (post deadding, that is). Just not enough imagination, or focus on character. Mad kings are always a great foil for a main character's struggles.

I can't fathom how someone can look at "undead Ancient Egypt with magic and Renaissance-era tomb robbers" and think "nowp, no basis for a story there..."

Christ you could get two or three decent novels out of a Ciaphas Cain-style Indiana Jones parody alone.

The struggle between VC and TK's alone is enough to spawn a good chunk of novels.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Anvildude wrote:
It's like how there were dudes on the Khemri forum that were whining about how you couldn't write interesting stories about the Tomb Kings (post deadding, that is). Just not enough imagination, or focus on character. Mad kings are always a great foil for a main character's struggles.

I can't fathom how someone can look at "undead Ancient Egypt with magic and Renaissance-era tomb robbers" and think "nowp, no basis for a story there..."

Christ you could get two or three decent novels out of a Ciaphas Cain-style Indiana Jones parody alone.

The struggle between VC and TK's alone is enough to spawn a good chunk of novels.

Hell, the struggle from among TK factions (they're basically city-states that have been at war with one another for more years than there's been peace) would make for an interesting canvas for a few novels.

Never mind that kings from multiple dynasties waking up all at once makes for decent comedy. There's a Pratchett book with this premise, after all.

Rosebuddy wrote:
Never mind that kings from multiple dynasties waking up all at once makes for decent comedy. There's a Pratchett book with this premise, after all.

"I, the great Ansep Shasut, am KING of Khandur!"

"No, I, the greater Shapsan Aput, am King of Khandur!"

"Both of you are pale imitations of fools, for I, the Great and Powerful Tri'Xhi, am Queen of Khandur!"

etc. etc.

Eventually, after discovering how pointless it is to send undying armies against each other, they start working on complicated ceremonial schedules to share the throne while accounting for that the exact borders of their kingdom has changed throughout the centuries and trying to juggle the multiple neighbouring kingdoms in the same situation.

And then there's that jerk Settra, too.

Rosebuddy wrote:
Never mind that kings from multiple dynasties waking up all at once makes for decent comedy. There's a Pratchett book with this premise, after all.

Aw man, I loved Pyramids, one of Pterry's best

 jmurph wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
While I like 15mm models in general, I haven't been able to find enough 15mm models that I actually like aesthetically to get in to 15mm WHFB. Some armies aren't too bad, some armies aren't well represented, some armies are well represented but the models are pretty mediocre.

I quite like the current aesthetic of WHFB Orcs and Goblins and as of yet I haven't seen anything in 15mm that satisfies me. Same with Lizardmen. And those are my 2 main WHFB interests.

It seems like you could make a decent Bretonnian army as there's a lot of 15mm historics from the 1300-1500 sort of period. I also remember seeing a bunch of decent looking skeletons which would be a good basis for a VC force.

15mm can cover just about everything.

Some of the Goblins aren't too bad, I'm struggling to see many Orcs I like and nothing Night Goblin-ish. I think there's some 10mm hooded Orcs some people use as 15mm Night Goblins, but the range is very limited.

While the range of 15mm isn't terrible, if you try and recreate a WHFB army there'll usually be holes and inconsistent aesthetic and sometimes the sculpting on 15mm fantasy models leaves a bit to be desired.

Anvildude wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
Never mind that kings from multiple dynasties waking up all at once makes for decent comedy. There's a Pratchett book with this premise, after all.

"I, the great Ansep Shasut, am KING of Khandur!"

"No, I, the greater Shapsan Aput, am King of Khandur!"

"Both of you are pale imitations of fools, for I, the Great and Powerful Tri'Xhi, am Queen of Khandur!"

etc. etc.

What you did there. I see it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
Never mind that kings from multiple dynasties waking up all at once makes for decent comedy. There's a Pratchett book with this premise, after all.

Aw man, I loved Pyramids, one of Pterry's best

Agreed. I mean, You Bastard was an invention of pure genius

Anvildude wrote:
I personally would love to see a sort of violent Jeeves and Wooster thing, with an exhasperated Liche Priest or Tomb Herald having to deal with a delusional King who's alternately convinced he's completely impervious to all damage, and thinking he's still Mortal.

I'll sign that petition.

This may provide some inspiration:

http://hetairoiwargames.blogspot.com.es/2015/08/warhammer-3rd-edition-battle-wh15mm.html

I just consider Warhammer Fantasy a historical wargame.

I hate the fact that GW has gotten rid of all those kits (most of them were ones i was goin to buy). I cant bring myself to go onto the AoS site anymore. Its lucky my local Independant Retailer has refused to get rid of the old models, and put in an order for all the kits that would be discontinued.

WHFB will live on, as long as we still want it.



Also: this thread isnt helping me.

WHFB will never die in my home!

Neither will Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic, Inquisitor, Necromunda, Warmaster, or Man O War!

As long as you've got 2 armies and the rulebooks you've got all you need!

The real issue here is that GW managed to make an interesting and unique take on the traditional Tolkienesque fantasy world, built it up with more interesting lore for, what, 30 years? Gave use backstory, cultures, tragedy and triumph and emotional attachments to characters, but in the end treats it as a boardgame and money source rather than as a franchise. Had they started their licensing 10 years ago (properly, mind you, rather than the charlie-foxtrot that happened with Warcraft) they could have essentially a globally recognized fantasy empire- bestselling book series, blockbuster movies, video games, dedicated successful stores and national tournaments that don't require a con tacked on.

Instead, they're throwing out their in-house development because it doesn't seem to be making a profit, while tossing the license at every Joe and Jane with a computer- many (if not most) of which are treating the source material with more respect and therefore managing to make pretty awesome games out of them.

Anvildude wrote:
The real issue here is that GW managed to make an interesting and unique take on the traditional Tolkienesque fantasy world, built it up with more interesting lore for, what, 30 years? Gave use backstory, cultures, tragedy and triumph and emotional attachments to characters, but in the end treats it as a boardgame and money source rather than as a franchise. Had they started their licensing 10 years ago (properly, mind you, rather than the charlie-foxtrot that happened with Warcraft) they could have essentially a globally recognized fantasy empire- bestselling book series, blockbuster movies, video games, dedicated successful stores and national tournaments that don't require a con tacked on.

Instead, they're throwing out their in-house development because it doesn't seem to be making a profit, while tossing the license at every Joe and Jane with a computer- many (if not most) of which are treating the source material with more respect and therefore managing to make pretty awesome games out of them.

You mean fire ever land fighting death everland in the epic battle of endless horde A vs endless horde B is not full of feelings.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:


Remember WHFB was canned because it was not selling and new players were not coming in. We can argue to death as to WHY that was *cough* Rules! *cough* but at the end of the day all 15 armies were 15% of sales. As far as GW is concerned Ronnie can have them.

WHFB wasn't selling due to bad rules. It wasn't selling because of the stupid crazy cost of having a viable army. Pains me to think how much I would have spent on my Skaven if it weren't for the starter set....horde armies need so many core choices it is crazy. GW just priced themselves out of their own game.

Does anybody want to play this game on Universal Battle? I have a hard time finding games anywhere else. I only know 8th though.

 chiefbigredman wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:


Remember WHFB was canned because it was not selling and new players were not coming in. We can argue to death as to WHY that was *cough* Rules! *cough* but at the end of the day all 15 armies were 15% of sales. As far as GW is concerned Ronnie can have them.

WHFB wasn't selling due to bad rules. It wasn't selling because of the stupid crazy cost of having a viable army. Pains me to think how much I would have spent on my Skaven if it weren't for the starter set....horde armies need so many core choices it is crazy. GW just priced themselves out of their own game.

Bad rules did cause a lot of players to leave or shelve their armies in favour of other games. I know I petered out due to the crappiness of the 8th edition. Cost of updating army books cause a sell off of 6 of my armies and just left the oldest ones. Which eventually got boxed up and archived.