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So are SOB not getting any mentions here because people think they're solid or because people forgot they existed? Because 1 makes me happy and 1 makes me sad. Also because 1 is right, SOB are far better, even with their unique issues, than the non-codexes, orks, CSM and DE. Even BA and loses out to sisters most of the time.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Orks have a few tricks up their sleeves. Not many, but staying 100% within just the parent codex, Orks can play Maelstrom decently enough.

Chaos Marines on the other hand are literally outdone by at half the game's armies in absolutely everything they can possibly do...

All ork tricks come from: supplements and a dubious FW update.

So just be fair and lets use the same resources to CSM

They now suddenly have access to some nasty tricks of their own.
Not the least: be'lakor, and some of the nastiest FW stuff out there and as a added bonus their FW stuff isn't based on a highly dubious hidden file.

You could say codex only but this would also cut off all previously mentioned ork formations, biker troops and discount stompa's.

 oldzoggy wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Orks have a few tricks up their sleeves. Not many, but staying 100% within just the parent codex, Orks can play Maelstrom decently enough.

Chaos Marines on the other hand are literally outdone by at half the game's armies in absolutely everything they can possibly do...

All ork tricks come from: supplements and a dubious FW update.

So just be fair and lets use the same resources to CSM

They now suddenly have access to some nasty tricks of their own.
Not the least: be'lakor, and some of the nastiest FW stuff out there and as a added bonus their FW stuff isn't based on a highly dubious hidden file.

You could say codex only but this would also cut off all previously mentioned ork formations, biker troops and discount stompa's.

A basic Codex: Orks list built around Lootas, Shoota Boyz, Nob Bikers, MANz in a Truck & artillery will still wipe the floor with anything that a pure Codex: CSM list can bring.

If we count out pure LotD, pure MT manages to be worse than pure CSM, no mean feat!

I think craft-world elder-for their overpriced units, useless core, no access to D-weapons and lack of anything bigger than infantry

I play nids with just the codex - I don't have dataslates, supplements, FW or any of the new models. I had stopped playing shortly after the release of the garbage 6th ed nid dex following years of living with the garbage 5th ed nid dex and have only recently started playing again (in the hope that a new nid dex is on the horizon - I know but you gotta have a dream).

Anyway, I don;'t doubt for a minute anything that has been said in this thread but the nid dex is such a terrible product hearing that CSM, Orks, and DE (haven't played these since starting up again) are in a far worse position than nids is so depressing. But GW being GW it is not surprising and with this many armies needing to be redone makes me wonder now if a new nid dex will arrive in the near future - and not a few months before 8th ed arrives screwing up the book after only a short period of play. Ah...40K.

ERJAK wrote:
So are SOB not getting any mentions here because people think they're solid or because people forgot they existed? Because 1 makes me happy and 1 makes me sad. Also because 1 is right, SOB are far better, even with their unique issues, than the non-codexes, orks, CSM and DE. Even BA and loses out to sisters most of the time.

You know, I actually find Sisters to be pretty alright. They shoot reasonably well, and units of crusaders/flaggelants/death cult assassins hit reasonably hard in melee as does Celestine. Personally, I've been running a blob squad of sisters backed up by a Canoness with rerollable armor saves and Saint Celestine.

Sisters lack in-codex access to anti-air and flyers. Their faith powers aren't quite where I'd like them to be. They probably pay too much per sister based on the starting cost of a tac marine. The weapons they have access to are limited. Their assault units are just okay. They lack high rate of fire weaponry outside of Exorcists. But despite all that, they're fairly solid.

They're a relatively cheap wound wrapped in power armor. Their proliferation of melta shots offsets their lack of high-rate-of-fire shots. While I'd like Faith powers to be handled differently, the faith powers I have work pretty well. Priests do wonderful things to blobs of sisters, and a powermaul and a succesfull leadership test turn a priest into a strength 5 ap2 combatant with a decent number of attacks. An immolater is a pretty solid deal, and a rhino is a better deal for sisters than for marines due to the special weapons you can fit in a unit. I wouldn't expect my sisters to do all that well against warp spiders or ravenwing, but they'd probably do better than my chaos marines. Also, sisters can just ally in Imperial Knights, spess muhreens, etc., so competitively they have that going for them.

ERJAK wrote:
So are SOB not getting any mentions here because people think they're solid or because people forgot they existed? Because 1 makes me happy and 1 makes me sad. Also because 1 is right, SOB are far better, even with their unique issues, than the non-codexes, orks, CSM and DE. Even BA and loses out to sisters most of the time.

Sisters are actually not half bad, especially with Inquisition allies. Putting Sisters Repentia in a Land Raider is fun.

ERJAK wrote:
So are SOB not getting any mentions here because people think they're solid or because people forgot they existed? Because 1 makes me happy and 1 makes me sad. Also because 1 is right, SOB are far better, even with their unique issues, than the non-codexes, orks, CSM and DE. Even BA and loses out to sisters most of the time.

Sisters can function solo, not amazingly but they can. They deal with Flyers by spamming Organ Missiles at them and solve many other problems the same way. Dominions are still amazing and the basic Battle Sister isnt awful by any stretch.

Could they be better? Oh dear god yes, Seraphim and Repentia need to get reworked badly as does the Faith system in general, but they are far and away better than the Big 3 we are discussing here.

Heres my one argument for why Chaos SM are worse than Orks right now, Orks can make an unkillable Stompa. Yes its more expensive without FW, but you can still make that Stompa damn near unkillable. CSM have nothing even remotely close to that.

CSM have nothing even remotely close to that.

Chaos Knight with Fatey buffs is pretty close though.

 Ratius wrote:

CSM have nothing even remotely close to that.

Chaos Knight with Fatey buffs is pretty close though.

Yes, but Orks can do that with just their base codex, no FW, no Suppliments, and thats what i was comparing. If you bring in FW both CSM and Orks get better.

Cool enough

Least competitive...

hur hur


That's basically everything I own. My 40K gaming experience closely parallels that of my favourite force, the Thousand Sons. My forces abandoned by Games Workshop in favour of other armies. A wayward codex, shunned for it's use of warp powers and then punished with terrible spells in a new codex and rulebook.

The only force that I own that is in any way competitive would be my Space Marines, but even that army is sub-optimal as I based it around a drop-pod Sternguard army (Death Watch).

My Chaos, Orks and Dark Eldar are all bottom tier. I would only need Tyranids to complete the Quartet of Crap.

 Wulfmar wrote:

My Chaos, Orks and Dark Eldar are all bottom tier. I would only need Tyranids to complete the Quartet of Crap.

I lol'd...and then I was sad. With the rate of dex release last year you'd think these armies could be brought up to current 7th ed standards in a few months...and we would buy the dexes as we want our armies to be decent so we can use them (and most of the units/wargear/biomorphs).

Not including IA13 or Siege of Vraks, CSM hands down. They are supposedly one of the greatest threats to the IoM and everyone else but, due to a God awful codex, they are the red headed stepchild of 40k.

 Ventus wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:

My Chaos, Orks and Dark Eldar are all bottom tier. I would only need Tyranids to complete the Quartet of Crap.

I lol'd...and then I was sad. With the rate of dex release last year you'd think these armies could be brought up to current 7th ed standards in a few months...and we would buy the dexes as we want our armies to be decent so we can use them (and most of the units/wargear/biomorphs).

Then you realise that all of these armies are the stereotypical "bad guys", and that our lot in life is to be the ubiquitous punching bag so that Little Timmy can get his instant gratification fix from his beloved Speeesh Mehreeens...

I feel people are really overselling Sisters here. May not be the least competitive, but not sure they really qualify as anything but bottom third of all codices. If you have to ally something in to make it competitive it's not a good codex.

Sisters > BA

If you have to ally something in to make it competitive it's not a good codex.

Do you include self allying in that?
Orks, Nids, IG (AM), even C:SM.....

Thats not the issue with the SoB codex nor the above listed. Its just gak and lazy rules writing for all

Chaos Marines. Because crappy rules since the 4th edition codex.

It's sad to see many of my armies in the running here. I have two (Orks and CSM) out of the "quartet of crap" and also what is probably in 5th; Imperial Guard. I love my Orks too much to let go of or change much, but I'm starting to turn my Cadians heretic (go go super IA 13!) and focus on Steel Legion for my loyalist IG. I figure feth it, if they're not gonna be really useful in a game I may as well have a smaller army I love a lot more as a display piece!

CSM and orks are the bottom of the barrel. CSM did have the OP hell chicken for a little while before it was toned down. Orks where hit by Nurf really hard guess people at GW still have kan wall nightmares

CSM can cry another 5 years for the OP bull puckey they had for ALL of 3rd and 4th edition when their entire army was assault based.

-=Edit=- Don't try to get around the swear filter. - Lorek

DorianGray wrote:
CSM can cry another 5 years for the OP bull puckey they had for ALL of 3rd and 4th edition when their entire army was assault based.

That was 4th ed in a nutshell. Genestealers where a nightmare, Howling Banshees assaulted out of Falcons and Orks where murdering everything. And all of them would consolidate into another combat and chain kill armies.

4th ed was simultaneously amazing and terrible all at once, so no, CSM don't deserve the crap they are putting up with right now.

Legion of the damned

I'm going to echo what most are saying and put in another vote for CSM as the worst army right now. I only use the 'dex to ally in Be'lakor or Cypher with my Khorne Daemonkin, and I've only done that a couple of times. Cypher doesn't even use the Codex, but rather a dataslate (same with Be'lakor). Tyranids have one decent build, as do Orks, and I've seen at least one mean pure Dark Eldar list (basically Venom Spam with some Ravagers and jetbikes). I've never faced Sisters and so can't comment on them. CSM need other books to even be remotely competitive.

DorianGray wrote:
CSM can cry another 5 years for the OP bull puckey they had for ALL of 3rd and 4th edition when their entire army was assault based.

When most people who play the game now never played these editions, and when CSM's were far from the only powerful army? Even then, the book had horrid internal balance.

DorianGray wrote:
CSM can cry another 5 years for the OP bull shtt they had for ALL of 3rd and 4th edition when their entire army was assault based.

Then surely Eldar and Tau should be crying for a century after this

 Iron_Captain wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
CSM can cry another 5 years for the OP bull shtt they had for ALL of 3rd and 4th edition when their entire army was assault based.

Then surely Eldar and Tau should be crying for a century after this

And Loyalists can suffer until the Make-ya-Laughs actually win a Stanley Cup again, to make up for their OP shenanigans from 5th ed and on.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Then surely Eldar and Tau should be crying for a century after this

Im gonna give Tau a pass, as they still have lousy internal Balance. Eldar however get to cry until at least 10th ed.