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2016/04/25 14:37:31
Subject: Age of Sigmar News & Rumours ~ page 50 3 ways to play
I DID spend money on Fyreslayers. Magmadroth, the Battletome, and a Grimwrath Berzerker.
Apparently not enough
Zywus wrote:As it is now, they need to try something new, since the existing playerbase isn't buying enough.
Kanluwen wrote:Yeah no crap the playerbase "isn't buying enough", it's because out of everything that has come out? There's been only 4 "new" factions. Many people are waiting to see what the "new" version of their faction is.
But how do you expect GW to know that?
As long as the existing playerbase (with some help from people buying the models for use in 9th age, KoW etc,) doesn't buy enough for GW to consider it worth their effort, then we can't be surprised they attempt to widen their playerbase can we?
Sure it might be a hassle for you and your local group, but you'll probably keep playing anyway. GW is going after the ones on the fence who won't even try the game, but might play if it has some kind of points structure, and they seem to be a surprisingly large bunch.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 14:39:41
You really want to congratulate them for doing something they should have done to begin with?
No. We're congratulating them for admitting they were wrong instead of burying their head in the sand like they normally would have done
Them admitted they were wrong would be bringing back The Old World.
There's no conclusive proof yet that nuking the old world was the wrong move...
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2016/04/25 14:39:29
Subject: Age of Sigmar News & Rumours ~ "3 Ways To Play" - Points Coming This Summer
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Why is it that so many people state that GW games will never be balanced when most every other wargame out there is?
They are? I've see tons of people complain about how Warmachine is only balanced if you use specific combinations of units, and how many units are just straight up bad no matter what. And that's the game that is usually lauded as having great balance.
2016/04/25 14:42:42
Subject: Age of Sigmar News & Rumours ~ "3 Ways To Play" - Points Coming This Summer
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Why is it that so many people state that GW games will never be balanced when most every other wargame out there is?
Because they've proven to be incompetent and/or unwilling to make a balanced system for the last years.
Also, many of the systems lauded for balance, often has some glaring imbalances too. The big difference is that others work to minimize them, while GW has shown a complete lack of care as of late. (though we might be seeing them turn around...maybe)
Manchu wrote: Feel very ambivalent about this news. I really do not think it is possible to have your cake and eat it, too. I wish I could say - sure go ahead and point everything out, what could it hurt? But the truth is, it will just be one more thing that GW "doesn't do properly"/for posters to complain about. AoS will become another imbalanced game with models marketed by power creep.
On that, we will have to wait and see, no doubt.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
2016/04/25 14:43:30
Subject: Age of Sigmar News & Rumours ~ page 50 3 ways to play, including point values!
Kanluwen wrote: Oh please. Most of those people complaining online or in shops about the "lack of points" will find something else to complain about.
"There's no points!" has already become "Well, there's points--but the models are still too expensive!".
That is a terrible argument Kan and you should feel shame for typing it. It might be the most pathetic thing I've seen you say in a while.
"But... but... but... they'll find something else to complain about!" - You're the one complaining about something that so many people have been asking for. You're the one complaining about styles of play being added to the game without replacing the method you like playing. If the people you play with prefer the newer methods, then really that's your problem, not a problem with them, the game, or GW.
"It's still too expensive!" - Not a new complaint. AoS stuff is prohibitively costed. Stop trying to act like this is the 'next step' for people complaining about AoS. That complaint has been there since day one.
Honestly Kan... this has never been more applicable to you.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 14:49:53
All the same, there is no denying that how the units and options are pointed out will be no less a source of complaint than there being no points. In fact, it will likely drive even more complaints. There are only so many ways to say you don't like that a game doesn't use points. But every single points value assigned to every single option becomes a target.
I am really hoping GW will continue to write/publish whatever the hell they like, completely unrestrained in their creativity by the shackles of "balancing the game" and leave pointing it out to "some of the world’s biggest tournament organisers."
Honestly, I'm most happy that they're working with the big tournaments to develop this new points system. Shows that they're *gasp* actually engaging with the community in a much more substantive way than just social media chit-chats.
Kanluwen wrote: Oh please. Most of those people complaining online or in shops about the "lack of points" will find something else to complain about.
"There's no points!" has already become "Well, there's points--but the models are still too expensive!".
That is a terrible argument Kan and you should feel shame for typing it. It might be the most pathetic thing I've seen you say in a while.
"But... but... but... they'll find something else to complain about!" - You're the one complaining about something that so many people have been asking for. You're the one complaining about styles of play being added to the game without replacing the method you like playing. If the people you play with prefer the newer methods, then really that's your problem, not a problem with them, the game, or GW.
"It's still too expensive!" - Not a new complaint. AoS stuff is prohibitively costed. Stop trying to act like this is the 'next step' for people complaining about AoS. That complaint has been there since day one.
Honestly Kan... this has never been more applicable to you.
Woooo, unnecessary antagonism over plastic toy soldiers ftw!
What AOS with points will have over 40k with points is that AOS rules are free. So much of the frustration with 40k rules comes from the premium cost of the rules that get regurgitated every couple of years with little (if any) improvement and a nice new $50 tag.
As long as AOS rules are free, complaints about their quality will have significantly less merit.
2016/04/25 14:55:41
Subject: Age of Sigmar News & Rumours ~ "3 Ways To Play" - Points Coming This Summer
Accolade wrote: What AOS with points will have over 40k with points is that AOS rules are free. So much of the frustration with 40k rules comes from the premium cost of the rules that get regurgitated every couple of years with little (if any) improvement and a nice new $50 tag.
That just furthers what I've said for years about GW's right hand not knowing that they even have a left hand. Everything they do is so silo'd. Forge World gets to act like a company run by adults, 40K gets driven into the ground with super-expensive supplements that barely last a year in production, Black Library keeps making store-day-event-limited books that no one cares about, and AoS goes "YOLO!" with a structure-less points-less rule set. Nothing is consistent.
Or nothing was, as the times appear to be changing.
Accolade wrote: As long as AOS rules are free, complaints about their quality will have significantly less merit.
Bad rules, be they free or expensive, are bad rules. The cost of said rules in no way changes the validity of the problems with them.
Manchu wrote: All the same, there is no denying that how the units and options are pointed out will be no less a source of complaint than there being no points. In fact, it will likely drive even more complaints. There are only so many ways to say you don't like that a game doesn't use points. But every single points value assigned to every single option becomes a target.
Absolutely, but adding it to the game harms no one. It's the same argument a lot of us have always made when it comes to balancing 40K - a balanced game penelises no one, even if you don't care about balance. For the people who like the unstructured points-less AoS, nothing changes, which is what makes Kan's leaps of (il)logic all the more foolish. Literally nothing has changed for him, yet he's acting like it's The End Times.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 14:59:11
Accolade wrote: As long as AOS rules are free, complaints about their quality will have significantly less merit.
Caveat Mendicus? Hasn't the free stuff been slowly but surely replaced with not-free stuff?
I believe all of the warscrolls are still available for free on their website. The compendiums (to my knowledge) have the warscrolls, but they are not the sole providers of such (looking at the fyreslayer rules on the website right now).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/25 15:00:15
2016/04/25 15:00:54
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar News & Rumours ~ "3 Ways To Play" - Points Coming This Summer
Accolade wrote: As long as AOS rules are free, complaints about their quality will have significantly less merit.
Caveat Mendicus? Hasn't the free stuff been slowly but surely replaced with not-free stuff?
I believe all of the warscrolls are still available for free on their website. The compendiums (to my knowledge) have the warscrolls, but they are not the sole providers of such (looking at the fyreslayer rules on the website right now).
All of the Warscrolls are still available for free on the website, but the books contain the Warscroll Battalions or you can buy them as microtransactions.
2016/04/25 15:02:39
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar News & Rumours ~ "3 Ways To Play" - Points Coming This Summer
I suppose if GW were to suddenly take all the rules down and start charging for them once the point system is in place, then AOS would be in the same gak hole that 40k is. But I really don't see that happening- they seem pretty focused on making AOS work (and doing that would certainly *not* help).
2016/04/25 15:03:40
Subject: Age of Sigmar News & Rumours ~ "3 Ways To Play" - Points Coming This Summer
This is simply not true. Design is a matter of mechanics. Point-costed options is one such mechanic. A game designed to incorporate mechanic is fundamentally different from a game designed excluding that mechanic. So adding points will either change the game at a fundamental level or amount to nothing more than a tacked-on veneer. The latter should and will disappoint those who want a fantasy version of 40k and the former will disappoint those who like AoS from breaking out of the pick-up game model and returning to the scenario-driven approach.
This is simply not true. Design is a matter of mechanics. Point-costed options is one such mechanic. A game designed to incorporate mechanic is fundamentally different from a game designed excluding that mechanic. So adding points will either change the game at a fundamental level or amount to nothing more than a tacked-on veneer. The latter should and will disappoint those who want a fantasy version of 40k and the former will disappoint those who like AoS from breaking out of the pick-up game model and returning to the scenario-driven approach.
You'd be right, if you weren't wrong.
Or, to put it another way, one way isn't replacing the other way. Both exist, therefore both camps can be catered to. This points system does not replace the structure-less/points-less way to play AoS, so the people who want to play that way have lost nothing.
This is simply not true. Design is a matter of mechanics. Point-costed options is one such mechanic. A game designed to incorporate mechanic is fundamentally different from a game designed excluding that mechanic. So adding points will either change the game at a fundamental level or amount to nothing more than a tacked-on veneer. The latter should and will disappoint those who want a fantasy version of 40k and the former will disappoint those who like AoS from breaking out of the pick-up game model and returning to the scenario-driven approach.
You'd be right, if you weren't wrong.
Or, to put it another way, one way isn't replacing the other way. Both exist, therefore both camps can be catered to. This points system does not replace the structure-less/points-less way to play AoS, so the people who want to play that way have lost nothing.
Unless you have a group where the outspoken minority always gets their way, because otherwise they take their ball and go home.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/25 15:06:59
2016/04/25 15:06:46
Subject: Age of Sigmar News & Rumours ~ "3 Ways To Play" - Points Coming This Summer
Accolade wrote: As long as AOS rules are free, complaints about their quality will have significantly less merit.
Bad rules, be they free or expensive, are bad rules. The cost of said rules in no way changes the validity of the problems with them.
Did you ever once actually play a game of AoS?
The rules were far from "bad".
That wooshing sound is my point sailing over your head Kan.
My point - to make it as bleedingly obvious as possible - was that with the new points system, it being free does not mean criticisms of that points system will have less merit.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: A game can be friendly to both gaming "styles" and being so will only make it better overall.
One GW game shows this is possible - LotR/Hobbit/Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game. The huge caveat is the IP. The players tend to be Tolkien fans and therefore pretty concerned that their armies are fluffy. The same will not apply to AoS any more than it currently does to 40k. There is also a more theoretical reason that AoS cannot and should not be balanced in the same way as SBG:
Manchu wrote: For those looking for a more historical/technological approach to list writing in a "fantasy" game, I'd really recommend Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit Strategy Battle Game (soon to be rebranded as Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game). Every unit and every option is very rationally laid out. This of course is partly a result of the races all (or mostly) sharing a phenotype, as it were, as well as roughly the same kind of equipment. It's also a result of Tolkien's work being an explicitly Christian fantasy and therefore assuming an ordered, historical approach.
Contrast this to Warhammer Fantasy - either Old World or AoS - in which Chaos rather than Cosmos is the basis of the setting. In Warhammer Fantasy, the Psychic is preeminent over the Material. Technology is meaningless in the face of true magic, which ignores any and every natural law upon which science is even possible. In this kind of world, it matters less what something is than what it symbolizes - as in a dream. (The appearance of) heavy armor in AoS, for example, stands for toughness generally rather than being a literal constant X applied universally, as in SBG.
Accolade wrote: As long as AOS rules are free, complaints about their quality will have significantly less merit.
Bad rules, be they free or expensive, are bad rules. The cost of said rules in no way changes the validity of the problems with them.
I think cost has an impact on the vitriol related to rules issues. You look at a rules issue with AOS and can say "well, at least I didn't pay for this gak." With 40k, you have to ask yourself "why the hell did I pay for this gak?"
2016/04/25 15:09:57
Subject: Age of Sigmar News & Rumours ~ "3 Ways To Play" - Points Coming This Summer
At least now I might try a game with my high elves , but while I like the way it looks the maw crusha isn't worth the price they're asking for to me. So yay
2016/04/25 15:12:04
Subject: Age of Sigmar News & Rumours ~ "3 Ways To Play" - Points Coming This Summer
H.B.M.C. wrote: This points system does not replace the structure-less/points-less way to play AoS, so the people who want to play that way have lost nothing.
Again: games are designed with mechanics. A game designed to incorporate balance-through-points is different from a game NOT designed to do that. If some third party tacks points on after the fact (the current situation), that's one thing. That is a world apart from starting with a design "ecosystem" defined by points.
