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nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, I am not
Te rule REQUIRES that every single unit in the formation is either on the table deployed, or every single unit is placed in reserves

A flier cannot deploy*

A flier can only be placed in reserves

So if you include a flier, it must be placed in reserve. As one unit is placed in reserve, every unit in the formation must be placed in reserve.

Done. Proven. Counter the actual argument (you are claiming a flier placed in reserves has deployed, despite the rules stating the exact opposite, for a start) or quit.
Until you understand that "deploy" and "place in reserve" arent the same thing, you cannot possibly argue in a way that will have any relevance.

*bar ready for takeoff upgrade for SSLP

I'm actually inclined to agree with Nosferatu1001. Fliers can't be deployed. Ergo, they're ineligible for any rule that requires them to be deployed. Being placed in reserves doesn't count as having been deployed. If the rule requires all models/units EITHER be placed in reserves OR be deployed to the table, the presence of a flyer means your only real option is to reserve all models/units. Deploying all models/units would be impossible and so isn't an option.

This seems pretty straightforward. I do see how it would be confusing if you consider being placed in reserves to be the same as deploying a flyer... which it's not.

Strike as one doesn't say what you want want it to. It's all of the units must be placed in reserve or deployed normally.

First your argument can be reversed. I didn't place all of my units in reserve so they must be deployed normally, and they can't go in reserve.

Second, it doesn't say anything about on the table.

Third, you still haven't countered what happens when it's impossible to deploy a unit. The rules says what to do and you ignore it to suit your argument. This is the normal way to handle deployment which is what's referred to in the strike as one rule.

Also, lol, you don't just get to decide you win. I mean you can... But no one has to accept you as the winner, but I guess if your ego needs that then more power to you.

WHen you cannot present a rules based counter to the arugment presented, whic h you have yet to do so, your argument fails.

the rule states every unit must EITHER be placed in reserves OR be deployed. This is proven.

You keep making assertions, but have yet to cite a single supporting rule. Follwo the tenets and mark your post as HYWPI, as you have yet to support your argument with anything even approaching a credible, rules based argument

Oh, and I ignore nothing. I fyou cannot deploy a unit (such as a flier!) then it must be placed in reserves. As one unit is placed in Reserves, EVERY unit must be placed in reserves. Done. Oh, and YET AGAIN "my" way (the one with the rules support) ALSO happens to follow the rule "strike as one", not your version which is "strike in parts"

Hell, that should give you a clue that perhaps yoru reading of the rule is a little off!

Well then it's impossible to ever use a flier in any of the rule book missions.... As they all say you must "deploy" using the standard method.

Since flier can't deploy then they can't be used or... You the same rule when you deeply them normally per the strike as one rule

Really, thats your argument?

Lol

You finally agree fliers cant deploy? Only taken the rule stating exactly that being shown to your three or four times, but hey, its an improvement...

Go look at the standard method. Then maybe retract your crazy assertion?

I don't agree to it at all. I was only applying your incorrect logic to the rest of the game.

The stand method to deploy? You mean what you normally do? Well exactly, that's my point. Do it normally.

You say I haven't provided a rule, but I have and you ignore the part you don't like.

"“When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve" "

So when the rules state placnig units in reserve is when you cannot deploy, you still think that this is deploying?

Really?

Attack the rules. Explain how the rule stating they are nto deplopying means they are actually deploying. Go on, please, this shoudl be interesting.

I'm ignoring nothing. Dont lie.

 Kriswall wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, I am not
Te rule REQUIRES that every single unit in the formation is either on the table deployed, or every single unit is placed in reserves

A flier cannot deploy*

A flier can only be placed in reserves

So if you include a flier, it must be placed in reserve. As one unit is placed in reserve, every unit in the formation must be placed in reserve.

Done. Proven. Counter the actual argument (you are claiming a flier placed in reserves has deployed, despite the rules stating the exact opposite, for a start) or quit.
Until you understand that "deploy" and "place in reserve" arent the same thing, you cannot possibly argue in a way that will have any relevance.

*bar ready for takeoff upgrade for SSLP

I'm actually inclined to agree with Nosferatu1001. Fliers can't be deployed. Ergo, they're ineligible for any rule that requires them to be deployed. Being placed in reserves doesn't count as having been deployed. If the rule requires all models/units EITHER be placed in reserves OR be deployed to the table, the presence of a flyer means your only real option is to reserve all models/units. Deploying all models/units would be impossible and so isn't an option.

This seems pretty straightforward. I do see how it would be confusing if you consider being placed in reserves to be the same as deploying a flyer... which it's not.

I tend to agree with Trystis on this one, Kriswall, but thank you for at least presenting your point in a way that doesn't make you look like a screaming three-year-old. With one strategic "ignore", maybe we can turn this into a coherent debate. As Trystis says, if your interpretation of "deployment' were correct, it would mean that none of the BRB missions would allow fliers since they each state that units use standard deployment.

Apart from the mission special rule "Reserves", which allows Fliers to be used.

SLippery slope fallacy again?

Both the mission rules and the strike as one rule state that you MUST deploy. You have to in both cases per the rules. The reserves rule would also impact the RWSF, it's what allows any army to take reserves, and has no value in the current discussion.

So deployment is a must, you can't not deploy in either case.

Some things are impossible to deploy though.

We have a handy rule for when this happens though. If you choose to read it. When things are imposible to deploy, you follow the rule:

“if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve"
It specifies any reason

The strike as one states you can deploy normally, what is normal? It would be the standard way of deployment just like the rule book missions. So the same methods would apply, unless you are saying the standard method isn't normal, and if it isn't what is?

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm actually inclined to agree with Nosferatu1001. Fliers can't be deployed. Ergo, they're ineligible for any rule that requires them to be deployed. Being placed in reserves doesn't count as having been deployed. If the rule requires all models/units EITHER be placed in reserves OR be deployed to the table, the presence of a flyer means your only real option is to reserve all models/units. Deploying all models/units would be impossible and so isn't an option.

This seems pretty straightforward. I do see how it would be confusing if you consider being placed in reserves to be the same as deploying a flyer... which it's not.

Does the rule state that all units be deployed on the tabletop during deployment, or deployed normally?

It states deploy normally. Flyers normally deploy from Reserves. Arriving from Reserves is deploying (albeit not during deployment).

Alternatively, if the Flyer has Hover, get a Skyshield to minimize arguments.

The Mission rules tell you to deploy using Standard Deployment. These are then modified by the MIssion Special Rule "Reserves". This gives you the option of ising Reserves instead of deploying.

Meaning your conclusion that you "must" deploy is incorrect.

Impossible to deploy I already covered when i pointed out that if it is IMPOSSIBLE to deploy and you are doing something else, that something else cannot, by definition, be "deploy" - because youve already determined that "deploy" is impossible, so to claim i havent read it is laughable.

Again

Te rule states that either every unit is deployed, or every unit is placed in reserves. So you must agree -a flier being placed in reserves means it CANNOT have deployed, because it was required to be placed in reserves, and this means EVERY unit must be placed in reserves

Given you agree, this can be settled here

Entyme - reported for rule 1.

It states that:

"All of the units in this detachment must either be placed in reserve or deployed as normal"

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm actually inclined to agree with Nosferatu1001. Fliers can't be deployed. Ergo, they're ineligible for any rule that requires them to be deployed. Being placed in reserves doesn't count as having been deployed. If the rule requires all models/units EITHER be placed in reserves OR be deployed to the table, the presence of a flyer means your only real option is to reserve all models/units. Deploying all models/units would be impossible and so isn't an option.

This seems pretty straightforward. I do see how it would be confusing if you consider being placed in reserves to be the same as deploying a flyer... which it's not.

Does the rule state that all units be deployed on the tabletop during deployment, or deployed normally?

It states deploy normally. Flyers normally deploy from Reserves. Arriving from Reserves is deploying (albeit not during deployment).

Alternatively, if the Flyer has Hover, get a Skyshield to minimize arguments.

deployed as normal. A flyer is placed in reserves instead of "deploy"ing (BRB p135 states this unambiguously) and so if a flier is present, one of the untis has been placed in reserve. If one unti is placed in reserves, ALL untis must be placed in reserves, as per the formation rule.

The reserve rule for missions would also apply to the RWSF.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The rule doesn't say "If one unti is placed in reserves, ALL untis must be placed in reserves, as per the formation rule."

It says that "All of the units in this detachment must either be placed in reserve or deployed as normal"

Or deployed as normal... It provides an option if not all of the units are reserved. That option is to do it the normal way. Referencing the missions the normal way is the standard method. The standard method allows for the flier to be placed in reserve.

Trystis wrote:
The reserve rule for missions would also apply to the RWSF.

Agreed. Its what allows you to choose to place units in REserve, instead of deploy(ing) normally

So you agree -a Flier, instead of deploying is placed into reserves. When one unit is placed in Reserves, EVERY units from the RWSF must be placed in Reserves, as per the restriction.

So if you include a flier in a RWSF, your entire army goes into reserves if that is your only formation. Meaning you auto lose end of game turn 1.

Glad we're in agreement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
deployed as normal. A flyer is placed in reserves instead of "deploy"ing (BRB p135 states this unambiguously) and so if a flier is present, one of the untis has been placed in reserve. If one unti is placed in reserves, ALL untis must be placed in reserves, as per the formation rule.

Arriving From Reserves IS deploying as normal for a Flyer, though. Look it up. Arriving From Reserves is deploying, just not during deployment.

Nothing in that rule states that the entire detachment is deployed during deployment if one is, does it? Is the word "deployment" actually used in this rule?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hell, you're even told if it is "impossible to deploy a unit" it gets put in reserves - meanign reserves CANNOT be deployment, because otherwise it would not be impossible to deploy them!

So, please. Explain how when you are told putting a unit in reserve is when you choose NOT to deploy then, or when it is IMPOSSIBLE to deploy them, that this is somehow deployment? Page and graph please.

Oh, and as you missed it - a testimony to your accuracy - here is where I addressed impossible to deploy means you are placed in reserve

Meaning you didnt deploy. Because it was impossible to do so . So you have done something other than deploy. Even if it is "normal" for you to do this thing that isnt deploy, athis doesnt mean it is now "deploy".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
deployed as normal. A flyer is placed in reserves instead of "deploy"ing (BRB p135 states this unambiguously) and so if a flier is present, one of the untis has been placed in reserve. If one unti is placed in reserves, ALL untis must be placed in reserves, as per the formation rule.

Arriving From Reserves IS deploying as normal for a Flyer, though. Look it up. Arriving From Reserves is deploying, just not during deployment.

Nothing in that rule states that the entire detachment is deployed during deployment if one is, does it? Is the word "deployment" actually used in this rule?

"all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal."

Deployed, past tense of deploy, whcih is what you do prior to turn 1 in the deployment phase. If you choose NOT to deploy, you are placed in Reserves. This cannot possibly be "deployed as normal" otherwise you have deployed as normal or deployed as normal in the rule above (as you have just made deployed as normal equivalent to being placed in reserve)

"all of the units in this detachment" is the set of units to which the following requirement is placed. There is no allowance in this to have SOME units deploy and SOME units be placed in reserves, it is ALL or none



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, handily, by reading the rule correctly, you end up with

STRIKE AS ONE

The name of the rule

Not "some of you strike, I'll sit back in reserves"

If I must deploy but can't then it's impossible. When it's impossible it gets placed into reserves. Your argument doesn't address the impossible aspect of the situation. I just deploy the flier, it's impossible to do so. It goes into reserves. This is deploying normally and you have failed to show where it isn't deploying normally.

Deployed being past tense is where you have landed.... Lol. Well at what point of time is it the past tense of? Now, but I haven't started playing yet... 19 years from now, I guess reserve rolls are cool then. Lol

First the title of the rule doesn't change the rule. Secondly, the rule allows you to place them all and reserve and "strike as one" or to deeply normally. It's your choice if you want the bonus or not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
deployed as normal. A flyer is placed in reserves instead of "deploy"ing (BRB p135 states this unambiguously) and so if a flier is present, one of the untis has been placed in reserve. If one unti is placed in reserves, ALL untis must be placed in reserves, as per the formation rule.

Arriving From Reserves IS deploying as normal for a Flyer, though. Look it up. Arriving From Reserves is deploying, just not during deployment.

Nothing in that rule states that the entire detachment is deployed during deployment if one is, does it? Is the word "deployment" actually used in this rule?

"all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal."

Deployed, past tense of deploy, whcih is what you do prior to turn 1 in the deployment phase. If you choose NOT to deploy, you are placed in Reserves. This cannot possibly be "deployed as normal" otherwise you have deployed as normal or deployed as normal in the rule above (as you have just made deployed as normal equivalent to being placed in reserve)

"all of the units in this detachment" is the set of units to which the following requirement is placed. There is no allowance in this to have SOME units deploy and SOME units be placed in reserves, it is ALL or none

And do we have another reference of time in which to apply this past tense from? Is it Game Start? Turn 1? Temporal references mean nothing without a proper starting point.

So again, we are back to, Flyers deploying by Arriving From Reserves is normal for them until you can provide another reference point.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And, handily, by reading the rule correctly, you end up with

STRIKE AS ONE

The name of the rule

Not "some of you strike, I'll sit back in reserves"

And if the names of a rule were how we were supposed to run things, we would get some VERY interesting interactions. Strike As One appears to be an optional capability, not a requirement. It is at this point I would remind you the board rule on definitions. The rule name is the same as giving the word before a definition. The rest that comes after is the definition of that rule.

I never claimed it did. I just pointed out that correctly reading the rule ALSO then meshes with the title of the rule. It helps with the "intent" question.

It isnt "where I have landed", it is parr of the rules. Have you accepted that fliers do not deploy yet? Just wondering.

There is no choice. You either deploy every unit or you place every unit in reserves. If you include a flier, every uinit must be in reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CHristoph - so you have decided that every unit must be placed in reserve OR placed in reserve?

As you have decided that placed in reserve is equivalent to "deployed normally"

Oh, and covered extensively befoer. Not a new argument

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/669920.page

I'm not saying that flyer do deploy before the beginning of the game. I have said numerous times that it's impossible to deploy a flyer then.

When it's impossible to deploy a flier it gets placed in reserve.

The rule doesn't state that every unit has to be deployed. It states that they are deployed as normal. It's always impossible to deploy a flier this way because of the fliers rules.(baring special rules). Because it's not possible to deploy a flier it goes into reserve. This how units are deployed normally. You have not disproved this.

Also, the rule states that either every unit has to be placed in reserved or be deployed normally, I didn't place every unit in reserves so I'm forced to deploy normally, and don't get to make us of the rule allowing the, all to come in on the second turn.

Discussed to death befor, so this should just be locked. Absolutely nothing new is being said.

The rule states every unit is deployed normally, or every unit is placed in reserves. If one unit is placed in reserves, every ither unit must be placed in reserves as well, as per the rule. If you don't do this, you break the strike as one rule.

It doesn't say that if one unit is placed in reserve then all of the unity are. It say that if you place every unit in reserve you get a special rule. It also states that units are deployed normally if you don't.

How are fliers deployed normally? They have to be deployed per the mission rules, but can't be deployed per their own rules. Normal deployment allows me to place some things in reserve, and requires flyers to be in reserve.

Fliers are ALWAYS impossible to deploy, this is normal. When some thing is impossible to deploy it goes into reserves. The strike as one rule DOES NOT require that if one unit is in reserves all units are. It requires that units are deployed normally (which would be how you do it if this rule wasn't present, In other word normal) OR place all units in reserve. Once again it's impossible to deploy a flier. There is a rule that address this impossibility. It places them in reserve. This is normal.

it hasn't been a discussion because you have ignored or been unable to refute why this isn't normal deployment for flyers, and if not describe what is normal deployment for flyers.

The first line requires that every unit is deployed normally, or every unit is placed in reserve. If every unit is placed in reserve you get a bonus. Two different requirements. If your reading were correct then the first line would have no function whatsoever. Luckily your reading isn't correct.

It is impossible to deploy them. Therefore they are not deployed, but instead placed in reserves. Gee, what part of the strike as one rule does that follow..oh wait. It follows the placed in reserves part.

I have proven that what is normal for a flyer is to be placed in reserves. This is not them being deployed. You continually ignore this, and seem to think that a flier "deploys" into reserves. This is clearly nonsense

So, do you think the first part of the rule has a function or not? Because so far you're stating it has no function, given you must deploy or place in reserves, there is no third place....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never claimed it did. I just pointed out that correctly reading the rule ALSO then meshes with the title of the rule. It helps with the "intent" question.

If you weren't claiming it, you were heavily implying that the title shapes the rule. You went over it quite vehemently several times.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is no choice. You either deploy every unit or you place every unit in reserves. If you include a flier, every uinit must be in reserves.

The phrase "or deployed normally" does indicate a choice, though. Placing a unit in Reserves and having it deploy from Reserves is perfectly normal, especially when that unit is required to.

Without a time reference placing all of this during deployment or before the game starts, the term "deployed" is not excluding the detachment from partially deploying from Reserves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Charistoph - so you have decided that every unit must be placed in reserve OR placed in reserve?

As you have decided that placed in reserve is equivalent to "deployed normally"

Sure if you want to misrepresent everything I just stated, you could say that.

"Deployed normally" indicates normal deployment behavior, without modification, as opposed to requiring all units being placed in Reserves. Being placed in Reserves to deploy later is "normal", and required for Flyers, so more than "normal".

The who,e rule is past tense though, and obviously talks about, in context, the deployment part of the game setup. You know, the point where you choose (where possible) whether to place units in reserve or not. Hence there is a delimited time frame when deployed normally is referring to the choice to deploy or the choice (or imposition) not to deploy. A flier does not deploy normally, it is placed in reserve.

The "or..." Rule does give a choice. The first part limits the scope of what the choice can be applied to "every unit in the formation". Not "every unit individually,,,"

If you are saying I can choose differently for each unit,, then the first part of the rule does nothing. Luckily the rule makes no allowance for you to choose for each unit; the entire formation is either in reserves or not


So I summary, I will take the least complicated resolution of
1) following the written rule
2) having the written rule have some function and
3) following the clearly given intent of the rule, as stated in the title "strike as one"

If you truly believe they didn't mean you to strike as one, but in pieces, then there's not much that can be said

I don't ignore it. Placing them in reserves is a normal consequence of them being impossible to deploy.

I must either place all units in reserves, or they must be deployed normally. I never am excluded from placing some units in reserves if it is part of their normal deployment. Like it is for flyers. The flyer being forced into reserves doesn't force everything into reserves because the rule doesn't say that.

The rules for missions state I must deploy using the standard. This is how all units are deployed normally. Including flyers. This is the normal method and would be one used if you chose the option in strike as one.

You're inventing a non normal method and saying it's the only way units can be considered deployed. However, it's not the normal method for deploying units. The normal method would most likely be the deployment method specified by the mission.

The strike as one states you can deploy normally, what is normal? It would be the standard way of deployment just like the rule book missions. So the same methods would apply, unless you are saying the standard method isn't normal, and if it isn't what is?

This really sums it up quite well. 'Deployed as normal' does not mean 'every unit must be placed on the table', I really don't know how you can infer that from the reserves rule.

How do you know 'Strike as one' is a mandatory tactic for this formation? Maybe the don't always want to strike as one, because they are tactically smart.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The whole rule is past tense though, and obviously talks about, in context, the deployment part of the game setup. You know, the point where you choose (where possible) whether to place units in reserve or not. Hence there is a delimited time frame when deployed normally is referring to the choice to deploy or the choice (or imposition) not to deploy. A flier does not deploy normally, it is placed in reserve.

So, you are placing an assumption on the temporal reference it is speaking of. Or is there a section of the rule that hasn't been quoted that literally places all deploying as normal during deployment?

And you are missing the point about Flyers. Flyers do not deploy normally when compared to an Infantry or Bike unit, but deploying from Reserves IS normal for Flyers. We aren't tasked with "deployed normally for infantry units", just "deployed normally". Flyers Arriving From Reserves IS normal for them. That IS their "normal" standard of deploying. Ignoring slow down from Difficult Terrain is not normal for Infantry, but is normal for Bikes. Understanding that which is "normal" for the unit in question is part of the issue.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The "or..." Rule does give a choice. The first part limits the scope of what the choice can be applied to "every unit in the formation". Not "every unit individually,,,"

If you are saying I can choose differently for each unit,, then the first part of the rule does nothing. Luckily the rule makes no allowance for you to choose for each unit; the entire formation is either in reserves or not

Actually, I can since "deploying normally" does make allowance for each unit to be chosen. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise in the other rules of the game. Even more so, "normal" is not the same for every unit. A Fortification is "normally" deployed during deployment. An Infiltrating unit "deploys normally" after all units without the Infiltrate rule. An Infiltrating unit "normally" has the option to "deploy" from Outflank.

The key is understanding what is "normal" in every case. "Normally" a detachment is often split up with some deployed on the board and some in Reserves, especially where Flyers and units required to Deep Strike are concerned, not all on the table.

Your perspective of "normal" needs to be updated or supported. So far, you have not supported it with a quote.