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Some abilities or psychic powers work on "Units with (a specific) faction"

For instance, here is a corsair psychic power:


If a unit is composed of models from multiple factions joined via IC and battle bro's, is the unit eligible for those abilities or powers?

For that particular example above. If I join a void dreamer to a unit of Dark Eldar wyches, can he use that power on his unit?

I'm concerned both about the general rules, and about the ITC tourney rulings.

tag8833 wrote:
Some abilities or psychic powers work on "Units with (a specific) faction"

For instance, here is a corsair psychic power:


If a unit is composed of models from multiple factions joined via IC and battle bro's, is the unit eligible for those abilities or powers?

For that particular example above. If I join a void dreamer to a unit of Dark Eldar wyches, can he use that power on his unit?

I'm concerned both about the general rules, and about the ITC tourney rulings.

Every Unit's Army List Entry (i.e. Datasheet) has a Faction logo on it. A Unit of Wyches has Faction (Dark Eldar) because that's what its Datasheet says. This doesn't change when you join in an IC. A Unit of Wyches will always have Faction (Dark Eldar).

If a Void Dreamer joins a Unit of Wyches, the resulting Unit is Faction (Dark Eldar) and is not eligible as a target for the above power. The Void Dreamer ceased to be a unit by himself when he joined the Wyches, so he is also not eligible as a target.

 Kriswall wrote:
Every Unit's Army List Entry (i.e. Datasheet) has a Faction logo on it. A Unit of Wyches has Faction (Dark Eldar) because that's what its Datasheet says. This doesn't change when you join in an IC. A Unit of Wyches will always have Faction (Dark Eldar).

If a Void Dreamer joins a Unit of Wyches, the resulting Unit is Faction (Dark Eldar) and is not eligible as a target for the above power. The Void Dreamer ceased to be a unit by himself when he joined the Wyches, so he is also not eligible as a target.

So you are saying it would be different if we went the other way? For instance if a Farseer joined a unit of Corsair bikes, would they be an eligible target for the power?

tag8833 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Every Unit's Army List Entry (i.e. Datasheet) has a Faction logo on it. A Unit of Wyches has Faction (Dark Eldar) because that's what its Datasheet says. This doesn't change when you join in an IC. A Unit of Wyches will always have Faction (Dark Eldar).

If a Void Dreamer joins a Unit of Wyches, the resulting Unit is Faction (Dark Eldar) and is not eligible as a target for the above power. The Void Dreamer ceased to be a unit by himself when he joined the Wyches, so he is also not eligible as a target.

So you are saying it would be different if we went the other way? For instance if a Farseer joined a unit of Corsair bikes, would they be an eligible target for the power?

They would indeed. Per their Datasheet, a unit of Corsair Bikes (or whatever the unit is called) would have Faction (Eldar Corsairs)... or (Corsairs)? I'm not super familiar with the Corsairs list, but the rules for Factions and IC's are the same for all armies.

On a related note, could the IC be targeted by those spells separately from the unit he has joined?

 EnTyme wrote:
On a related note, could the IC be targeted by those spells separately from the unit he has joined?

There are no rules for picking out a unit within a unit. When an IC is joined to another unit, it cannot be referred to by its original unit definition. Or rather, we have no rules for doing such.

However, there are rules for picking out a model from within that unit, and the IC's faction for the model would not change.

There is no such thing as a unit within a unit. The IC's unit simply ceases to exist, temporarily, while he is attached.

Just as there really is no such thing as a mixed faction, nor mixed detachment unit: ICs become part of the joined unit for all rules purposes.

My favorite example is an IC from a formation attached to a CAD troops unit; the IC as part of the CAD Troops unit gains the objective secured rule(in the event that he is the only model in the unit within claiming/contesting range of the objective) and loses whatever special rules units from his formation gain(as he is not currently a unit from his formation).

 EnTyme wrote:
On a related note, could the IC be targeted by those spells separately from the unit he has joined?

No. The easiest way to understand it is that when an IC joins a unit, there is only one unit on the table... composed of whatever models were in the unit previously plus the newly joined IC model. The "IC Unit" ceases to exist when the IC joins a unit. As such, the only valid target would be the unit as a whole. The "IC Unit" would exist again if the IC decided to leave the unit it joined.

What if you form a unit of a Farseer and a Corsair Prince? 2 ICs, one unit, half of it is Corsairs. Can it be targeted by these powers?

It depends on who joined whom.

If the COrsair prince moves to join the farseer, then no. Opposite way round, yes.

So very similarly, a discussion came up in a tactics thread concering "rising crescendo", a harlequin formation bonus that allows the "formation unit" to move->run->charge.

If a Farseer from a CAD joins them, then he is part of the unit for all rules purposes as described, and thus would also be able to move->run->charge with the unit ????

Just clarifying

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It depends on who joined whom.

If the COrsair prince moves to join the farseer, then no. Opposite way round, yes.

Exactly this.

The IC rules are actually fairly simple amd straight forward; but the "all IC super-units" is tends to be a spot that gets a little more difficult for most(since they are all ICs).

Whether joined by movement or starting joined the unit will always be from 1 faction and 1 detachment no matter how many of those elements the ICs involved came from within the final unit. You could even conceivably have 2 ICs that are "come the apocalypse" to each other joined in the same unit as long as they are both joining a unit they are battle brothers to(don't believe there are any such possibilities currently).

When joining multiple ICs there is always going to be 1 unit that is joined and all ICs joining that unit are then treated as members of that unit for all rules purposes. This is the Unit of the first IC that the others move to join, or a nominated IC when joining them at deployment(which includes preparing reserves)

The only detachment benefits that are not lost are those that must be applied prior to first turn(free wargear, re-roll warlord traits, etc)any benefits dependant on "units from this formation/detachment" are lost when an IC joins a unit from another detachment.

Similarly to above Faction special rules are only kept if they are not "units from/with the X faction"; and effects can only be applied to or affect the faction of the joined unit(Orders, Canticles, preferred enemy), some of those may have the caveat that all models in the unit must have the faction for the effect though.

Yes, absolutely.

To deny this requires you to insist that a rule that only checks for unit identity gives two hoots about the members of the unit and where they were picked from. No such rule exists.