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No Supplements, detachments from other books or anything like this, just the most powerful build possible from your current codex how would you rank them?

I think its probably going to be DE, Tyrnids or Orks.

Dark Eldar are relatively ok.
Chaos Marines, Blood Angels and Scions are all factions that are probably weaker than the ones listed.

Chaos Marines by a landslide.

CSM are flat out bad even more so without FW and data slates

I wouldn't know about DE but Orks and Tyranids can easily handle themselves without supplements (granted that's with their most powerful builds, i.e. Ork boyz hordes and Tyranid flying circuses).
Definitely CSM are the weakest codex, I almost always have to take daemon/renegade/FW units in order to even have a chance of winning a battle.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I wouldn't know about DE but Orks and Tyranids can easily handle themselves without supplements (granted that's with their most powerful builds, i.e. Ork boyz hordes and Tyranid flying circuses).
Definitely CSM are the weakest codex, I almost always have to take daemon/renegade/FW units in order to even have a chance of winning a battle.

I only play purely for gaks & giggles, and love me my Tzeentchian hordes... but man, it's getting to the point that it's just not even funny anymore how truly awful our codex is.

It'd be nice for once to not be that guy who is forced to ask every potential opponent to take pity on them and dial back their lists to 'limp noodle Lv.0 difficulty please'.

CSM, Orks and IG all share the same spot IMO. They have different strengths and weakness but that's really arguing over semantics compared to how easily they all get trashed by nearly every other army.

 Zewrath wrote:
CSM, Orks and IG all share the same spot IMO. They have different strengths and weakness but that's really arguing over semantics compared to how easily they all get trashed by nearly every other army.

Except that both Orks & IG can readily trash the poor CSM's quite easily...

People seem to forget that Chaos Marines are the only army in the game that literally come with 0 special rules/abilities in their base form. EVERYTHING a Chaos Marine can take has to be paid for; Marks of Chaos, VotLW, Icons...
Yet these basic forms of added special rules come built into every other basic unit in the game. The only things anyone else ever pays for is wargear/transport, etc...

Chaos Marines have been playing at a massive pts handicap since 2007, while also receiving not a single new upgrade or similar. (only "new" things we've had in 10 years is a solid flyer, a single mediocre daemon engine, a single badly overcosted daemon engine, and two pretty much unplayably awful units!)
Meanwhile, even the likes of Orks & IG have been getting new toys & 'oodles of new and/or re-worked model kits.

Seriously, go look in your local GW store at the IG/Ork/DE/BA sections of the 40k wall. You'll find a nearly complete model line with plenty of options, even if those armies struggle to compete against the top lists from the 7.5ed books.
Now go look at the garbage heap that's the CSM section, and you soon realise that we have a half-missing model line that's still stuck in 3rd/4th edition.

I am going to sub in for Martel and say BA.

Probably Orks.

It amazes me that the race that uses force field technology more than almost any other has no way of getting a melee invuln save.

Imperial Guard.
Even Orks laugh at us now

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I am going to sub in for Martel and say BA.

+1 BA is the worst. Well... It was the worst, and then they nerfed it so idk what it is right now.

They're supposed to be fast, elite, melee badasses. However they can't fight in CC nearly as well as normal Marines (who are pretty craptastic at chopping stuff in the first place). Even if they could fight, they have no way to get to CC without being blown off the table and the kicker is they can only be considered a melee army if they charge. If they get charged, they may as well be a bunch of drunkards with swords who don't know how to use them. Needless to say their shooting is nothing to write home about. I'd say BA shooting is marginally worse than CSM and a smidge better than DE ONLY becauseof overcharged engines At the end of the day though, DE or CSM. will pimp slap BA in combat every time.

If you really want to know this look for LVO result statistics or some other big tournament results and ignore all comments here. All players seem to be biased that their own army is the worst.

 oldzoggy wrote:
If you really want to know this look for LVO result statistics or some other big tournament results and ignore all comments here. All players seem to be biased that their own army is the worst.

No they're really not...

High level competitive tournaments are about the single worst measuring stick possible for the bottom feeders, since their lists tend to be either bolted onto another army as allies (BA's/IG/DE), or else at best take just the 1-3 or so decent units in a min CAD and then spend 75%+ of their pts on a proper army (CSM's).

The only garbage tier army who can get valid results from tourney data are Tyranids, because they have no actual ally options & are thus forced to only ever run mono-Codex. (as pretty much every single event in existence bans CtA level allies!)

CSM player

 mrhappyface wrote:
I wouldn't know about DE but Orks and Tyranids can easily handle themselves without supplements (granted that's with their most powerful builds, i.e. Ork boyz hordes and Tyranid flying circuses).
Definitely CSM are the weakest codex, I almost always have to take daemon/renegade/FW units in order to even have a chance of winning a battle.

CSM player

Experiment 626 wrote:
Chaos Marines.
Even Orks & Tyranids at least have 1 cookie-cutter build that can drag them up to the upper middle tables at a Tournament.

Guard player

 master of ordinance wrote:
Imperial Guard.
Even Orks laugh at us now

Ork player

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Owning both Dark Eldar and Orks, it's difficult to decide which of my armies sucks the most in this edition with their utterly gak army books.

Probably Orks, after all those years and editions surviving on the once great Kelly book, to then get almost universal nerfs and that... that mob rule change... that fething affront.

Yeah, I can do things with my Dark Eldar, my orks just break my heart these days. And I used to break face with them, a lot.

You get the idea, polls and discussions like these are just as informative as shouting matches between toddlers. There is noting wrong with these discussions, It is just that most players are extremely biased. If you want an answer search for actual data or collect your own data based on the huge collection of online casual battle reports.

Every army I own is the weakest army, every army that beats me is the most overpowered. Every player I beat is a terrible scrub who needs to L2P.

Have we summed up the thread yet?

the_scotsman wrote:
Every army I own is the weakest army, every army that beats me is the most overpowered. Every player I beat is a terrible scrub who needs to L2P.

Have we summed up the thread yet?

No, what I have gathered is that there are 2-3 codices that are considered weak by almost everyone. Everyone else is kinda meh. and then there are some super powers.

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Every army I own is the weakest army, every army that beats me is the most overpowered. Every player I beat is a terrible scrub who needs to L2P.

Have we summed up the thread yet?

No, what I have gathered is that there are 2-3 codices that are considered weak by almost everyone. Everyone else is kinda meh. and then there are some super powers.

Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons, Dark Angels, Tau, Daemons can play on their own and roflstomp their way to the top tables in any tournament.

Space Wolves are still unknown for the most part just how well they've made out with their CotW expansion changes, though Wulfen are freaking insane!

Khornekin, Ad Mech/Skittari & Sisters do well enough, but really require allies and/or get shoehorned easily into set builds to hang out with the big boys.

Grey Knights, Guard, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels have a couple good formation(s), but absolutely require allied help to compete. However, all of them have stellar ally pools to draw from.

Orks, Tyranids are entirely shoehorned into a cookie-cutter build to compete.

Chaos Marines now only exist as Sorcerers, min Cultist 'tax', and occasionally some Nurgle Oblits/Bikers/Spawn, min/maxed Plaguemarines & Helturkey.
Mostly, you can actually remove the title "Chaos Space Marines" from the codex cover, and replace it instead with "IA:13 and/or Daemons with a few Sorcerers & sometimes friends".

Experiment 626 wrote:

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Every army I own is the weakest army, every army that beats me is the most overpowered. Every player I beat is a terrible scrub who needs to L2P.

Have we summed up the thread yet?

No, what I have gathered is that there are 2-3 codices that are considered weak by almost everyone. Everyone else is kinda meh. and then there are some super powers.

Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons, Dark Angels, Tau, Daemons can play on their own and roflstomp their way to the top tables in any tournament.

Space Wolves are still unknown for the most part just how well they've made out with their CotW expansion changes, though Wulfen are freaking insane!

Khornekin, Ad Mech/Skittari & Sisters do well enough, but really require allies and/or get shoehorned easily into set builds to hang out with the big boys.

Grey Knights, Guard, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels have a couple good formation(s), but absolutely require allied help to compete. However, all of them have stellar ally pools to draw from.

Orks, Tyranids are entirely shoehorned into a cookie-cutter build to compete.

Chaos Marines now only exist as Sorcerers, min Cultist 'tax', and occasionally some Nurgle Oblits/Bikers/Spawn, min/maxed Plaguemarines & Helturkey.
Mostly, you can actually remove the title "Chaos Space Marines" from the codex cover, and replace it instead with "IA:13 and/or Daemons with a few Sorcerers & sometimes friends".

This is very good, +1

So what you're saying is, csm models can be used in competitively viable KDK lists, or allied with competitive daemons and can reach top tables

While meanwhile, orks and nids who have no allies or DE who have only appeared as minimum allies for Eldar (and who are now totally obsolete with corsairs) are in way better shape?



Oh, and remember that viable cookie cutter Ork build with the green tide formation? Yeah, GW updated the supplement that was in to remove it

" but absolutely require allied help to compete."

There's no point in tacking on allies to BA. The BA just drag down whatever list they are in. Just replace the whole BA list with a vanilla list. They do everything better. I actually wish flesh tearer strike force didn't exist, because then everyone wouldn't steal our drop pods.

Based on what you can do with the codex alone, no allies or dataslates?

I'm going to have to say CSM. Was looking through the codex the other day to try a piece together a Thousand Sons army, and 90% of the codex is just so... bland or downright useless.

That 10% of "decent" is basically the Helturkey, MoN Bikers, Cultists, ML3 Psykers, Havoc Launchers and Flying DP's.

BA are a close second, they only have one unit of interest to me, Assault Marines with Meltaguns, which vanilla do not get.

Martel732 wrote:
" but absolutely require allied help to compete."

There's no point in tacking on allies to BA. The BA just drag down whatever list they are in. Just replace the whole BA list with a vanilla list. They do everything better. I actually wish flesh tearer strike force didn't exist, because then everyone wouldn't steal our drop pods.

That's all part of Seth's master plan to rebuild the Flesh Tearers. He's saving all of those rental fees so he can buy a better codex.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
CSM, Orks and IG all share the same spot IMO. They have different strengths and weakness but that's really arguing over semantics compared to how easily they all get trashed by nearly every other army.

Except that both Orks & IG can readily trash the poor CSM's quite easily...

People seem to forget that Chaos Marines are the only army in the game that literally come with 0 special rules/abilities in their base form. EVERYTHING a Chaos Marine can take has to be paid for; Marks of Chaos, VotLW, Icons...
Yet these basic forms of added special rules come built into every other basic unit in the game. The only things anyone else ever pays for is wargear/transport, etc...

Chaos Marines have been playing at a massive pts handicap since 2007, while also receiving not a single new upgrade or similar. (only "new" things we've had in 10 years is a solid flyer, a single mediocre daemon engine, a single badly overcosted daemon engine, and two pretty much unplayably awful units!)
Meanwhile, even the likes of Orks & IG have been getting new toys & 'oodles of new and/or re-worked model kits.

Seriously, go look in your local GW store at the IG/Ork/DE/BA sections of the 40k wall. You'll find a nearly complete model line with plenty of options, even if those armies struggle to compete against the top lists from the 7.5ed books.
Now go look at the garbage heap that's the CSM section, and you soon realise that we have a half-missing model line that's still stuck in 3rd/4th edition.

Ignoring the completely irrelevant part about the model line, no, CSM can quite easily beat IG when they optimize, maxing out warp charges and fishing for invisibility on Spawns and/or bikes with MoN and grats, you can now proceed to ignore 99% of any relevant firepower from IG and destroy any vehicle they have due to AV10 rear (none of which can overwatch or hit you because of invisibility) and don't use the infantry blob argument, none uses them anymore because they achieve nothing and die easily to massed fire and even then, you got helldrakes to fix that problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zewrath wrote:
CSM, Orks and IG all share the same spot IMO. They have different strengths and weakness but that's really arguing over semantics compared to how easily they all get trashed by nearly every other army.

Also, read the bold part.
Perhaps you should've read my post properly, instead of insisting that your special snowflake army is the biggest dumpster fire of the other two sitting next to you.

Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.

CSM are the most strongest codex ever. We have Possessed that make 2 S5 attacks for mere 26 points, sometimes even with Ap3, and all that on already mighty superhuman space marine statline.

There are horrifying Monstrous creatures that have Toughness 5, 4 Wounds and 5++ for just 160 points. They are incredible against gravguns cause they dont have armor in-built.

And lets not forget about the mighty Mutilators causing the enemy to leave their positions and run in fear as they materialise around them, preparing to charge.

Also no other faction have Giant Crabs with power claws iirc, nor do they have d66 table of Hammer of Wrath.

But nothing gives more fun than seeing your Helbrute with Plasma cannon shoot at the enemy with blazing hatred, melting himself in 2 turns while opponent ignores it as not enough treat.

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
CSM are the most strongest codex ever. We have Possessed that make 2 S5 attacks for mere 26 points, sometimes even with Ap3, and all that on already mighty superhuman space marine statline.

There are horrifying Monstrous creatures that have Toughness 5, 4 Wounds and 5++ for just 160 points. They are incredible against gravguns cause they dont have armor in-built.

And lets not forget about the mighty Mutilators causing the enemy to leave their positions and run in fear as they materialise around them, preparing to charge.

Also no other faction have Giant Crabs with power claws iirc, nor do they have d66 table of Hammer of Wrath.

But nothing gives more fun than seeing your Helbrute with Plasma cannon shoot at the enemy with blazing hatred, melting himself in 2 turns while opponent ignores it as not enough treat.

I enjoyed every part of that post. Here, take all my exalts!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.

Really? spamming melta isn't a good enough way to bring down a MC? How about the ridiculous organ gun in the back field shooting D6 S8AP1 shots a turn? is that not enough ways to kill a MC or GMC?




Just as a reminder, the topic is which CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not codex with supplements and allies, im asking for the CODEX which is weakest BY ITSELF.

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.

Really? spamming melta isn't a good enough way to bring down a MC? How about the ridiculous organ gun in the back field shooting D6 S8AP1 shots a turn? is that not enough ways to kill a MC or GMC?




Just as a reminder, the topic is which CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not codex with supplements and allies, im asking for the CODEX which is weakest BY ITSELF.

No, melta is an antitank gun. The way you kill MCs is high ROF. A meltagun is basically a gravgun with one shot, a short range, and sometimes wounds worse against certain targets (like Wraithknights).

And no, a tank that 50% of the time is about the same as a lascannon predator is not a good way to kill an MC or GMC. Unless you think the Predator Annihilator is a great way to kill MCs or GMCs...

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.

Really? spamming melta isn't a good enough way to bring down a MC? How about the ridiculous organ gun in the back field shooting D6 S8AP1 shots a turn? is that not enough ways to kill a MC or GMC?




Just as a reminder, the topic is which CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not codex with supplements and allies, im asking for the CODEX which is weakest BY ITSELF.

Melta sucks vs MCs. They can practically ignore it because of the poor ROF.