Which current Codex is weakest

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**Relapse**

Lukash_ wrote:
Probably Orks.

It amazes me that the race that uses force field technology more than almost any other has no way of getting a melee invuln save.

I really think a lot of the Ork codex weakness can be mitigated by someone really well practiced with that army. A friend of mine is just getting back into the tournament circuit with them and does fairly well. He won a battle mat in the LVO and just placed fourth, I believe, in a team tournament.

**SemperMortis**

Relapse wrote:
Lukash_ wrote:
Probably Orks.

It amazes me that the race that uses force field technology more than almost any other has no way of getting a melee invuln save.

I really think a lot of the Ork codex weakness can be mitigated by someone really well practiced with that army. A friend of mine is just getting back into the tournament circuit with them and does fairly well. He won a battle mat in the LVO and just placed fourth, I believe, in a team tournament.

Please don't overthink this and believe I am attacking you, I honestly don't know what you are saying here.

Are you saying, The Ork codex is fine and L2P?

or

are you saying the Ork codex would be best served by someone with a lot of experience in the actual army being involved in the next codex which should come out sometime in the 2020s going by current Ork Codex releases.

**Ironwolf45**

Atm, this is how I personally see it. The Imperial Guard, which I play, isn't a bad Army but right now they are struggling as they are in need of a major update. They can still be competitive however they need a lot of point reductions for most of their units and tanks, and they need to have their formations updated to be on par with current armies. Also, Forgeworld needs to stop being lazy and update the Death Korps of Krieg and Elysians as well. One if the biggest issue with the Imperial Guard is that there are numerous Army lists and formations with different point values and rules comma and they all need to be updated to where they are all on the same page.

Other then that, would have to say CSM, Orks, and DE are the ones struggling the most besides the IG. Sisters of Battle are the weakest as the are the Forgotten Army atm lol.

**Experiment 626**

Ironwolf45 wrote:
Atm, this is how I personally see it. The Imperial Guard, which I play, isn't a bad Army but right now they are struggling as they are in need of a major update. They can still be competitive however they need a lot of point reductions for most of their units and tanks, and they need to have their formations updated to be on par with current armies. Also, Forgeworld needs to stop being lazy and update the Death Korps of Krieg and Elysians as well. One if the biggest issue with the Imperial Guard is that there are numerous Army lists and formations with different point values and rules comma and they all need to be updated to where they are all on the same page.

Other then that, would have to say CSM, Orks, and DE are the ones struggling the most besides the IG. Sisters of Battle are the weakest as the are the Forgotten Army atm lol.

Sisters are in no way a 'weak' army... Sure their options are among the fewest in the game, but their power list(s) are definitely around the middle of what are considered the 'mid tier' armies. (ie: Wolves, Ad Mech/Skittari, BA's w/allies, GK's, DE/Covens w/Eldar allies, Flyrant spam 'Nids, etc...)

Sisters beat the living snot out of both Orks & CSM's with relative ease thanks to all those templates + meltas/Exorcists.

**niv-mizzet**

Yeah it's a common misconception that sisters are a weak army. Admittedly one would think that because they are rarely seen on the table, and rarely get updates.

But in practice when you take marines, drop their point costs by removing several irrelevant melee stats like WS S and I, while also getting rid of atsknf so they don't obnoxiously block the rest of your army's shooting after getting assaulted, have them focus on specialized anti infantry and anti vehicle weapons, and give them cool shenanigans like being able to ignore cover or rend at key times...turns out they're pretty good!

If sisters had affordable models, I'd absolutely run BA/sisters pod spam for competitive lists. Dropping in 4 rending heavy flamers from one unit or 4 ignore cover meltas all for roughly the price of a marine tac squad in a pod with special + combi is super efficient.

**Furyou Miko**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I actually play with Forge World too, but to take a page from the Chaos players ITT: "It isn't in the codex so we can't use it."

Without a flier or Repressors, sisters are terribad.

I've seen some very effective FWF lists. They just use Immolators instead of Repressors and either ignore fliers or take an ADL with a canoness on it.

**jreilly89**

SemperMortis wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Lukash_ wrote:
Probably Orks.

It amazes me that the race that uses force field technology more than almost any other has no way of getting a melee invuln save.

I really think a lot of the Ork codex weakness can be mitigated by someone really well practiced with that army. A friend of mine is just getting back into the tournament circuit with them and does fairly well. He won a battle mat in the LVO and just placed fourth, I believe, in a team tournament.

Please don't overthink this and believe I am attacking you, I honestly don't know what you are saying here.

Are you saying, The Ork codex is fine and L2P?

or

are you saying the Ork codex would be best served by someone with a lot of experience in the actual army being involved in the next codex which should come out sometime in the 2020s going by current Ork Codex releases.

Eh, I think Orks have a couple strong builds and can really surprise someone who underestimates them. But! I think overall the codex is crap, a lot of the upgrades are just slapped on (look at Cybork Body on Mad Dok.....why?!?!?) and overall they could use some buffs, as the only really strong Ork players run either FW or all bike armies.

**Unit1126PLL**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
I actually play with Forge World too, but to take a page from the Chaos players ITT: "It isn't in the codex so we can't use it."

Without a flier or Repressors, sisters are terribad.

I've seen some very effective FWF lists. They just use Immolators instead of Repressors and either ignore fliers or take an ADL with a canoness on it.

Sisters in Immolators are expensive Marines in Razorbacks since Marines can get free razors now.

And to take a page from Chaos players ITT about the ADL: "It isn't in the codex so we can't use it." I know this is an absurd rule, but it seems to be the standard we are using.

**SemperMortis**

Eh, I think Orks have a couple strong builds and can really surprise someone who underestimates them. But! I think overall the codex is crap, a lot of the upgrades are just slapped on (look at Cybork Body on Mad Dok.....why?!?!?) and overall they could use some buffs, as the only really strong Ork players run either FW or all bike armies.

There are a few strong ork builds as you said, but they are Forge World builds not Codex Ork of hell even the Supplement builds.

I heard from a lot of people that they thought the new Ghaz Death Star inside the Orkurion was going to be OP cheese and would win a lot....but really no. Nothing in the codex or supplement is worth taking in any kind of tournament, lots of options for fun friendly games but nothing that is really competitive.

Even the Green tide wasn't really competitive, it was mostly just a scare tactic. If your attacked it from two different sides the green tide would spend the rest of the game piling in and your opponent would just zip around grabbing objectives and doing whatever he wanted to the remainder of your army (which wasn't very big because you had to invest a minimum of 650ish points into the green tide, or optimize it out at around 3 times that.)

**Furyou Miko**

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Sisters in Immolators are expensive Marines in Razorbacks since Marines can get free razors now.

And to take a page from Chaos players ITT about the ADL: "It isn't in the codex so we can't use it." I know this is an absurd rule, but it seems to be the standard we are using.

Marines aren't terribad either :p

The opinions of Chaos players are to be taken with salt - they're a good example of what we could be, if we didn't have faith in our army and the Emperor.

**morfydd**

Cybork on Mad Dok ..thats a leftover from every previous version where cybork=5+Invulnerable and having a DOK or Pain Boy attached = an FNP

**SemperMortis**

morfydd wrote:
Cybork on Mad Dok ..thats a leftover from every previous version where cybork=5+Invulnerable and having a DOK or Pain Boy attached = an FNP

True but a 5++ was factored into a lot of models cost in the previous codex. Even the ability to attain a 5++ was factored into the cost, and instead of adjusting the cost of models with that 5++ or access to it to adjust to a 6+ FNP they did nothing.

Mad dok in essence is paying for a 5++ that he doesn't get.

**EnTyme**

IMO, the three horde armies (Orks, IG, and Tyranids) all suffer from the same thing: lack of an ability to replenish their troops. A horde army should be all about drowning the enemy in bodies (we have more soldiers than you have bullets!). Rules like the Tyranid Endless Swarm formation (if I remember the name correctly) would go a long way toward making them more competitive. There would still be other issues, such as an inability for the Tyranids to get into melee, but imagine if an IG blob army could "Call for Reinforcements!" once per turn and restore 2d6 models to infantry squads or something similar.

**Champion of Slaanesh**

I'd say chaos marines are in a difficult spot but can do ok in the hands if someone who knows how to play the army. In my experiance alot of people try to play them like a shooting army or like a loyalist army yet that is not how they work

**Experiment 626**

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
I'd say chaos marines are in a difficult spot but can do ok in the hands if someone who knows how to play the army. In my experiance alot of people try to play them like a shooting army or like a loyalist army yet that is not how they work

CSM's are an army that works best by simply bringing Daemons, Khornekin, and/or IA:13 in their place.

**Champion of Slaanesh**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
I'd say chaos marines are in a difficult spot but can do ok in the hands if someone who knows how to play the army. In my experiance alot of people try to play them like a shooting army or like a loyalist army yet that is not how they work

CSM's are an army that works best by simply bringing Daemons, Khornekin, and/or IA:13 in their place.

Really my experiances with the army would beg to differ

**TheCustomLime**

Mono-Chaos Marines and Mono-Blood Angels. They were oddly designed with the meta of 5th edition mind for some weird reason like Orks and Guard were.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
I'd say chaos marines are in a difficult spot but can do ok in the hands if someone who knows how to play the army. In my experiance alot of people try to play them like a shooting army or like a loyalist army yet that is not how they work

CSM's are an army that works best by simply bringing Daemons, Khornekin, and/or IA:13 in their place.

Really my experiances with the army would beg to differ

Anecdotes are not susbabtial evidence in of themselves.

**Jaxler**

Experiment 626 wrote:
ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Every army I own is the weakest army, every army that beats me is the most overpowered. Every player I beat is a terrible scrub who needs to L2P.

Have we summed up the thread yet?

No, what I have gathered is that there are 2-3 codices that are considered weak by almost everyone. Everyone else is kinda meh. and then there are some super powers.

Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons, Dark Angels, Tau, Daemons can play on their own and roflstomp their way to the top tables in any tournament.

Space Wolves are still unknown for the most part just how well they've made out with their CotW expansion changes, though Wulfen are freaking insane!

Khornekin, Ad Mech/Skittari & Sisters do well enough, but really require allies and/or get shoehorned easily into set builds to hang out with the big boys.

Grey Knights, Guard, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels have a couple good formation(s), but absolutely require allied help to compete. However, all of them have stellar ally pools to draw from.

Orks, Tyranids are entirely shoehorned into a cookie-cutter build to compete.

Chaos Marines now only exist as Sorcerers, min Cultist 'tax', and occasionally some Nurgle Oblits/Bikers/Spawn, min/maxed Plaguemarines & Helturkey.
Mostly, you can actually remove the title "Chaos Space Marines" from the codex cover, and replace it instead with "IA:13 and/or Daemons with a few Sorcerers & sometimes friends".

What about harlies, knights and the good ol' inquisition?

**Don Savik**

Trying not to be biased here because the switch from the old to new ork codex was more brutal than kicking a grot with a steel toe boot, so I think its gotta be CSM. My friend plays CSM and while he has clearly better stats/weapons/wargear/everything his gak is so expensive point-wise that he gets like 5 terminators to my 60 slugga boys. And then I just win by sheer number of dice rolls.

Anyone else really really really hate that Big Meks have to replace their gun to get a KFF? And they can't have burnas? And the KFF isn't against melee as well? My Big Mek I modeled with a custom burna and KFF so I'm just really salty

**Vankraken**

Don Savik wrote:
Trying not to be biased here because the switch from the old to new ork codex was more brutal than kicking a grot with a steel toe boot, so I think its gotta be CSM. My friend plays CSM and while he has clearly better stats/weapons/wargear/everything his gak is so expensive point-wise that he gets like 5 terminators to my 60 slugga boys. And then I just win by sheer number of dice rolls.

Anyone else really really really hate that Big Meks have to replace their gun to get a KFF? And they can't have burnas? And the KFF isn't against melee as well? My Big Mek I modeled with a custom burna and KFF so I'm just really salty

I'm still irritated that the regular meks can't take big shootas anymore. Now my 3 big shoota meks (blasted loota box with only 4 lootas

) have been lobotomized by the Inquisition to be count as jokero.

**SemperMortis**

Vankraken wrote:
Don Savik wrote:
Trying not to be biased here because the switch from the old to new ork codex was more brutal than kicking a grot with a steel toe boot, so I think its gotta be CSM. My friend plays CSM and while he has clearly better stats/weapons/wargear/everything his gak is so expensive point-wise that he gets like 5 terminators to my 60 slugga boys. And then I just win by sheer number of dice rolls.

Anyone else really really really hate that Big Meks have to replace their gun to get a KFF? And they can't have burnas? And the KFF isn't against melee as well? My Big Mek I modeled with a custom burna and KFF so I'm just really salty

I'm still irritated that the regular meks can't take big shootas anymore. Now my 3 big shoota meks (blasted loota box with only 4 lootas ) have been lobotomized by the Inquisition to be count as jokero.

Yeah I never did figure out why they sell Lootas/burnas in sets of 5 but only include 4 weapons for you to utilize. My Big mek is going to keep his GD Big Shoota and he is going to count as another Loota for all intents and purposes. Granted at this point I hardly utilize Lootas because they tend to die whenever any other army farts in their general direction. And I never field Burnas for the same reason...well that and the change to flamer rules means I can't wipe out a unit with flamers anymore unless I am lucky enough to get that close to them...and generally at that point I would be better off saving the flamers for CC anyway

**G00fySmiley**

SemperMortis wrote:
Vankraken wrote:
Don Savik wrote:
Trying not to be biased here because the switch from the old to new ork codex was more brutal than kicking a grot with a steel toe boot, so I think its gotta be CSM. My friend plays CSM and while he has clearly better stats/weapons/wargear/everything his gak is so expensive point-wise that he gets like 5 terminators to my 60 slugga boys. And then I just win by sheer number of dice rolls.

Anyone else really really really hate that Big Meks have to replace their gun to get a KFF? And they can't have burnas? And the KFF isn't against melee as well? My Big Mek I modeled with a custom burna and KFF so I'm just really salty

I'm still irritated that the regular meks can't take big shootas anymore. Now my 3 big shoota meks (blasted loota box with only 4 lootas ) have been lobotomized by the Inquisition to be count as jokero.

Yeah I never did figure out why they sell Lootas/burnas in sets of 5 but only include 4 weapons for you to utilize. My Big mek is going to keep his GD Big Shoota and he is going to count as another Loota for all intents and purposes. Granted at this point I hardly utilize Lootas because they tend to die whenever any other army farts in their general direction. And I never field Burnas for the same reason...well that and the change to flamer rules means I can't wipe out a unit with flamers anymore unless I am lucky enough to get that close to them...and generally at that point I would be better off saving the flamers for CC anyway

magnetize or buy a single boyz box, you get a 5th flamer, and can use the big shoota for a proxy of a 5th deffgun.

the meks come in handy if you elect to do a stompa filled with big mek, 3 meks, and 4 lootas grouped with 3 meks. inside (4 firing points in a stompa)

**Experiment 626**

Looking over the new Librarius powers, Daemons are about to get completely shat on by Loyalist Marines...