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All 'umie dexs rely powa's of da warp an all dey frenz jus ta keep us from krumpin'em in a gud fite
soon as big mek figas out ow dem elfie gitz fire dem big gunz on dem big elfie warbosses wez gunna boltum to da deff dreadz an show dem umie gitz we dun need no stinkin elfie battle brudderz
now lemme sho ya dis new stick da weirdboy giv me 'ee sed it make boyz invisable like da umies with da funny grav gunz.
we gonna cast it on dem stormboyz and doze bikerboyz an dey gun giv it anuver go see?
I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.
Really? spamming melta isn't a good enough way to bring down a MC? How about the ridiculous organ gun in the back field shooting D6 S8AP1 shots a turn? is that not enough ways to kill a MC or GMC?
Just as a reminder, the topic is which CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not codex with supplements and allies, im asking for the CODEX which is weakest BY ITSELF.
No, melta is an antitank gun. The way you kill MCs is high ROF. A meltagun is basically a gravgun with one shot, a short range, and sometimes wounds worse against certain targets (like Wraithknights).
And no, a tank that 50% of the time is about the same as a lascannon predator is not a good way to kill an MC or GMC. Unless you think the Predator Annihilator is a great way to kill MCs or GMCs...
So having a squad of sisters with a Melta and a multi melta which usually means 1-2 wounds isn't good? its all about rate of fire? so what are the other sisters doing with there bolters?
The MC in question also matters a lot. A Carnifex actually is somewhat afraid of meltaguns, a couple squads with a couple meltas each backed up by boltguns can likely kill it in one round. An FNP'd Riptide with a 3++ invul is going to take ~40 meltagun shots to kill.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Vaktathi wrote: The MC in question also matters a lot. A Carnifex actually is somewhat afraid of meltaguns, a couple squads with a couple meltas each backed up by boltguns can likely kill it in one round. An FNP'd Riptide with a 3++ invul is going to take ~40 meltagun shots to kill.
That's a carnifex in the open with no venomthrope support. But yes, it takes fewer than a Riptide.
Hmm Tyrants Legion might be the weakest army list but as for the codex... Harlequins do seem to be the weakest. Without allies they lack a number of the tools needed to get by in today's meta:
- small open topped assault transports
- no reliable way to get past overwatch
- no durability outside of blessing (which for some reason cannot be cast within a transport...)
- over dependence on melee and this edition's bias away from assault (why don't solitaires hit on 2's?)
- over dependence on formations (especially so when some clubs/tourneys restrict formations altogether)
- very little in terms of ranged offense
- incredibly restrictive detachment made worse with no HQ
Outside of them BA and CSM have issues...
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
Crimson Devil wrote: 7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.
xSoulgrinderx wrote: No. but jink is cover and if the barrage its center they wont be getting cover
mrveng wrote: CSM by far. Can't even call it current as it hasn't been updated in ages. Can't compete with any other armor without help from Daemons or FW.
It's not even, "with help from Daemons or FW", but rather, it's to the point of just being a Daemon or FW army with a couple Sorcs, min Cultists and maybe some Oblits or Spawn bolted on as an afterthought!
Even the lowly BA's aren't that bad... They've got some decent formations, and allying in the likes of Tiggy + Gravcents alone can really pick up what's still a 50%+ 'Codex: Blood Angels' army.
You're actually lucky if you see even 20% of a Chaos army bring anything from the CSM codex, and the only time you'll even see an honest, actual "Chaos Space Marine" is in a purely 'for fun/target practice only' army.
Martel732 wrote: "nd allying in the likes of Tiggy + Gravcents alone can really pick up what's still a 50%+ 'Codex: Blood Angels' army. "
No, it really can't. Because the 50% could have been vanilla marines.
BA formations are largely garbage.
You can still get a decent BA army with;
HQ: Lv2 Libby + Sang Priest
Elites: 1-2 Fragiosos in Pods + obligatory DC unit
Troops: min Scouts for table control, or maybe 1 Scout + 5 Podded Tacticals w/Heavy flamer/Melta+combi-melta.
Fast: lone Drop Pod on it's own (for Tiggy + Gravcents), + 2x 3 Bikers w/all grav
Add in Tiggy + Gravcents.
Throw the Sang Priest into the Gravcentstar and now they also gain FnP to boot!
Sure it's not exactly how Blood Angels should play, but that's still a helluva lot better situation than what the poor CSM's are in... At least with Blood Angels you (shockingly) see some actual Blood Angel marines show up!
Do both armies need help? Absolutely they do!
But overall, the problems Blood Angels face is simply that they're still pre-7.5ed Marines. I'd bet my hat that when they get their update, they'll get all the basic SM goodies such as grav cannons, squadroned vehicles w/bonuses, Bloodcurion on par with at least DA's Lion's Blade, (hopefully) the Dreadnought boost...
That's a lot better than what it's going to take to bring Chaos Marines back up to anything close to respectable.
Martel732 wrote: "nd allying in the likes of Tiggy + Gravcents alone can really pick up what's still a 50%+ 'Codex: Blood Angels' army. "
No, it really can't. Because the 50% could have been vanilla marines.
BA formations are largely garbage.
You can still get a decent BA army with;
HQ: Lv2 Libby + Sang Priest
Elites: 1-2 Fragiosos in Pods + obligatory DC unit
Troops: min Scouts for table control, or maybe 1 Scout + 5 Podded Tacticals w/Heavy flamer/Melta+combi-melta.
Fast: lone Drop Pod on it's own (for Tiggy + Gravcents), + 2x 3 Bikers w/all grav
Add in Tiggy + Gravcents.
Throw the Sang Priest into the Gravcentstar and now they also gain FnP to boot!
Sure it's not exactly how Blood Angels should play, but that's still a helluva lot better situation than what the poor CSM's are in... At least with Blood Angels you (shockingly) see some actual Blood Angel marines show up!
Do both armies need help? Absolutely they do!
But overall, the problems Blood Angels face is simply that they're still pre-7.5ed Marines. I'd bet my hat that when they get their update, they'll get all the basic SM goodies such as grav cannons, squadroned vehicles w/bonuses, Bloodcurion on par with at least DA's Lion's Blade, (hopefully) the Dreadnought boost...
That's a lot better than what it's going to take to bring Chaos Marines back up to anything close to respectable.
This thread is about single codexes, so if you're gonna throw tiggy and a centstar in with. BA I'll throw in Belakor and an invisible chaos reaver titan for CSM. Which CODEX is the weakest is the threads title. Fragiosos are only good for template spamming hordes, scouts suck ass without a LSS to move them about (and BA don't get LSS not to mention BA scouts are still WS, BS 3) and their super combaty dreads have half as many attacks as any other marine dread. Lets not forget DC (arguably BAs best unit) is a fething joke if they don't get the charge.
Chaos has the Typhus+Plague Marine msu, nurgle bikers, hellturkeys, 3x oblits and shrouded filth mace ML3 nurgle DP build. Throw in a second. CAD (still CSM dex only) with a juggerlord with spawn entourage (or an unmarked ML3 sorc and another turkey), some cultists and another unit of oblits and there's no BA dex list that comes close. Hell, not even with formations.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/03/22 09:36:18
Martel732 wrote: "nd allying in the likes of Tiggy + Gravcents alone can really pick up what's still a 50%+ 'Codex: Blood Angels' army. "
No, it really can't. Because the 50% could have been vanilla marines.
BA formations are largely garbage.
You can still get a decent BA army with;
HQ: Lv2 Libby + Sang Priest
Elites: 1-2 Fragiosos in Pods + obligatory DC unit
Troops: min Scouts for table control, or maybe 1 Scout + 5 Podded Tacticals w/Heavy flamer/Melta+combi-melta.
Fast: lone Drop Pod on it's own (for Tiggy + Gravcents), + 2x 3 Bikers w/all grav
Add in Tiggy + Gravcents.
Throw the Sang Priest into the Gravcentstar and now they also gain FnP to boot!
Sure it's not exactly how Blood Angels should play, but that's still a helluva lot better situation than what the poor CSM's are in... At least with Blood Angels you (shockingly) see some actual Blood Angel marines show up!
Do both armies need help? Absolutely they do!
But overall, the problems Blood Angels face is simply that they're still pre-7.5ed Marines. I'd bet my hat that when they get their update, they'll get all the basic SM goodies such as grav cannons, squadroned vehicles w/bonuses, Bloodcurion on par with at least DA's Lion's Blade, (hopefully) the Dreadnought boost...
That's a lot better than what it's going to take to bring Chaos Marines back up to anything close to respectable.
This thread is about single codexes, so if you're gonna throw tiggy and a centstar in with. BA I'll throw in Belakor and an invisible chaos reaver titan for CSM. Which CODEX is the weakest is the threads title. Fragiosos are only good for template spamming hordes, scouts suck ass without a LSS to move them about (and BA don't get LSS not to mention BA scouts are still WS, BS 3) and their super combaty dreads have half as many attacks as any other marine dread. Lets not forget DC (arguably BAs best unit) is a fething joke if they don't get the charge.
Chaos has the Typhus+Plague Marine msu, nurgle bikers, hellturkeys, 3x oblits and shrouded filth mace ML3 nurgle DP build. Throw in a second. CAD (still CSM dex only) with a juggerlord with spawn entourage (or an unmarked ML3 sorc and another turkey), some cultists and another unit of oblits and there's no BA dex list that comes close. Hell, not even with formations.
Typhus - 230pts
DP w/DoN, Black Mace, Wings, Armour, Lv3 - 340pts!!!
3x Oblits w/MoN - 228 pts
= 1748pts
If you can't make even a strait-up Codex: BA list that can clock that, then your codex isn't the problem.
Replacing the useless Typhus with a Nurgle Bike Lord build still runs 165pts.
An AoBF Jugger Lord is a whopping 170pts, for a model who's worse in every way when compared to a Thunderwolf Lord, and is forced to always offer/accept any Challenges. Plus another minimum 100pts for 2x10 Cultists + 96pts for 3 MoK Spawn. (which also means no challenge bot to prevent the Lord from going stupid)
Helturkies were nerfed to crap when 7th hit.
Nurgle Mace Princes are hugely overrated because they're still Daemon Princes, which are the game's worst MC. (seriously, if you can't deal with a T5/W4/3+/5++ model that costs 300+pts, then your problem isn't with your army...)
You badly overrate the capabilities of CSM's, and love to ignore the fact that BA's at least have all the basic Loyalist strengths. (ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Drop Pods, Grav, etc...)
Let's see your BA list that's going to clock that list. I'm curious as to what you think is good. Keep in mind that in my case, I can't mindlessly stack grav because I could end up against demons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/22 17:28:40
Orks, CSM and DE all sit around drinking squig beer, the blood of the innocent and ... well you probably don't want to know... down at the bottom discussing it.
Martel732 wrote: Let's see your BA list that's going to clock that list. I'm curious as to what you think is good. Keep in mind that in my case, I can't mindlessly stack grav because I could end up against demons.
Dante - 220pts
Techmarine - 50pts
5 Scouts - 55pts
5 Scouts - 55pts
Com Squad w/4x Meltagun, Jump packs - 165pts
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-Autocannons - 120 pts
Drop Pod w/Deathwind launcher - 50pts
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-Autocannons - 120 pts
Drop Pod w/Deathwind launcher - 50pts
3 Bikes w/2 Grav guns + Combi-Grav - 103 pts
3 Bikes w/2 Grav guns - 93 pts
Land Speeder w/Heavy Bolter + Asscan - 80pts
Sang Priest - 60 pts
5 Tacticals w/Heavy flamer - 80 pts
Drop Pod - 35 pts
5 Scouts - 55pts
8 Death Company w/2x Power fist, Jump packs - 234 pts
Fragioso w/Heavy flamer - 140 pts
Drop Pod - 35 pts
= 1750pts
Nurgle list has to try and deal with Death Company, which really, only the DP is capable of, and really doesn't want to since they're eat him alive with hidden power fists.
Dante + Meltaguard is a back-up melee threat, and can nuke Rhinos/Plaguemarines.
Scouts for board control, which is hilarious considering Chaos has no innate Infiltrate beyond 2 named IC's.
Grav eats everything bar Cultists in the CSM codex.
Fragioso puts out enough auto-hits & with decent enough strength that it's deadly to even 2+ save units. (Rending helps a lot!)
Autocannon Dreads are good for HP'ing Rhinos to death, and thanks to twin-linked, can annoy the Hellturkey. (the only really problematic model in the CSM list) Techmarine is there because he fills the otherwise 'meh' HQ slot the cheapest, and to bolster some Ruins that the Dreads can anchor themselves in.
The Drop Pods are merely there for board control. Dropping empty pods to break apart/delay the opponent is an amazing ability all Loyalists have. The Deathwind launchers are also just cheap enough that they're worthwhile for adding some extra damage to the mix. (really handy where Daemons are hugely popular)
Land Speeder is cheap annoyance, and is viable against an army that severely lacks anti-tank to begin with. Good RoF for either going after Rhinos, or else knocking down T5 flying DP's. (or just finishing off that last straggler or two.)
Basically, the BA's can out MSUCSM's by a mile, and also present too many targets that CSM's simply don't have enough shooting or melee capabilities to deal with. Just the cheapness alone of BA units in general as compared to their CSM counterparts gives BA's the leg-up.
Chaos Marines pay far too much, for far too little.
I feel like you completely ignored me and list tailored. I also think that list is not as good as you think it is. BA do get a lot better if you list tailor and you opponent doesn't. I'll admit that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/03/22 18:20:28
Martel732 wrote: I feel like you completely ignored me and list tailored. I also think that list is not as good as you think it is. BA do get a lot better if you list tailor and you opponent doesn't. I'll admit that.
No, it's not tailored. It's pretty much what our local BA player was using before shelving their army and going back to expand on their GK's. (hence why he was running twin-autocannon Dreads, which were really just 'temporarily borrowed' by the BA's!)
It was designed as a 'poor mans GSF', with as many cheap units as possible, and a couple of heavy lifters.
Initially it started out with more Tacticals, but the returns just weren't there... The Scouts at least gave Infiltrate, and were less than half the cost of the min Tacs + Pod. (he stopped using Rhinos/Razorbacks in 7th due to the HP issues and being taxed for the Over-charged engines)
Honestly, it did okay vs. other non-Tourney MEQ's, 'Nids, Tau (before their Taucurion & Stormsurge BS), Orks, DE and even some Eldar lists. It rocked the hell out of CSM's that didn't heavily ally.
It got stomped hard by anything hyper competitive obviously.
Unit1126PLL wrote:Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.
No, they don't. What they lack is a delivery method for their excellent tool for dealing with MC/GMC.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
How is 15 melta guns not enough? I just did some quick calculations and the chance of a melta wounding a daemon prince (i.e. a MC) is 10 wounds in every 27 shots, that includes the DP's 5++. So in order to kill a DP you only need 13-14 melta shots. So well done heavily underpowered units of meltas managed to kill a 300pt model in one round of fire.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/22 20:57:52
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Taghmata Omnissiah(5,5k)
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15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
