How to make it fun to play against Tau?

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**G00fySmiley**

Traditio wrote:
Grizzyzz wrote:
9ppm Firewarrior:
2 3 3 3 1 2 1 7
defensive grenades, s5 gun

14ppm Space Marine demigod
4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8
assault/krak/frag grenades, TSKNF, s4 pistol/bolter, CHAPTER TACTICS ... did i forget anything else?

Seems pretty balanced to me (being serious, balanced as base troops for their cost)

I'm just saying. Nerf fire warriors to a S4, AP 5, 24 inch range, and you'll have no complaints from me. Or heck, even make it S4, AP 6, 30 inch range, and you'll have no complaints from me. Or even S 5, AP 6, 24 inch range.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gamgee wrote:Oh wow one month of complaints. Everyone complains the first month about everything in the first month. Since the day I got here Tau have been Tau bitched about. From the longest days of lurking people have been Tau bitching. Same goes for the site that shall not be named and its player base. Tau bitching ad nauseum. You'll see a bit of Eldar or Necron frustration, but not hate. Not downright furious bile like Tau players get. I regularly have to listen to people telling me they would remove my army from the game, remove its core mechanics, or completely overhaul its visuals and lore so that it isn't Tau. I think the least the other faction players can do is take some hate and live with it for a change.

Eldar are probably far more OP than Tau.

That said, there's a clear difference between Eldar and Tau. The problem with Eldar is that they are OP. Eldar as such, however, are perfectly fine. They are an army of highly mobile specialists. In a game with Eldar, stuff happens. Eldar are fun to play and fun to play against (so long as the Eldar player isn't spamming the most OP stuff in the book).

Tau at the very core are just annoying to play against.

Have you played Dark Souls?

Tau are like the two archers at Anor Lando.

Have you played Dark Souls II?

Eldar are like the drakekeepers with the giant maces.

The drakekeepers with maces need a giant nerf. They need to be made more like the giants in Anor Lando.

Those 2 archers in Anor Lando should simply never have been thought up in the first place.

Have you not played Dark Souls I?

Fine.

Tau are like the Shrine of Amana.

If anything the SM comparatively is under costed when compared to a fire warrior. ATSKNF is just SOOO good compared to what other armies get on top of the stat line, the right grenades for every situation to do something, and the best standard armor save in the game among troops (outside gray knights though they are still marines... though not actually marines and more evolved and created outside the emperor's knowledge but enough about storyline). the tau have Str 5 weapons because that is what they do... they are less likely to hit than the emperor's special snowflakes and they both cause wounds on 3's... but the marines have a better shot at surviving it. Marines actually have some of the best anti tau as tau have difficulty with AV14 barring hammerheads which nobody takes. knock out their pathfinders first doubly do if they took emp grenades and then just ride up in those land raiders, block LOS and rip apart the fish. I agree they are the lease fun to play against but tau are beatable, I can sometimes do it with orks in battlewagons assuming I can postpone side armor shots for a while.

as for elder... yea they are strong and top tier but WAY funner to play against (and harder to play than tau)

**Grizzyzz**

Traditio wrote:
Grizzyzz wrote:I think your asking the wrong question.. I think what you are meaning to ask is "why do they get a s5 base gun".. as a standalone model, a Firewarrior actually "shoots" worse then a space marine being lower BS.

Bull pucky.

They have 1 less BS on the model but 1 more S on their gun. Apart from combat doctrines and chapter tactics, fire warriors and space marines have statistically IDENTICAL shooting. Not to mention that with the 1 higher S, fire warriors can touch things that space marines can't. Fire warriors wound wraithknights on 6s and glance 11 AV on 6s.

That's not fair. At all.

Your space marine also has access to lots of special wargear and weapons that can make them better and more versatile. And it doesn't matter if i can harm a WK with my s5 gun when it is going to take 195 shots to take it down

Again, a marine has access to grav weapons, plasma, etc that can make them better at shooting tougher targets. Your marine is clutch, it is such an amazing model for its cost.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Traditio wrote:
Grizzyzz wrote:I think your asking the wrong question.. I think what you are meaning to ask is "why do they get a s5 base gun".. as a standalone model, a Firewarrior actually "shoots" worse then a space marine being lower BS.

Bull pucky.

They have 1 less BS on the model but 1 more S on their gun. Apart from combat doctrines and chapter tactics, fire warriors and space marines have statistically IDENTICAL shooting. Not to mention that with the 1 higher S, fire warriors can touch things that space marines can't. Fire warriors wound wraithknights on 6s and glance 11 AV on 6s.

That's not fair. At all.

Why not? Tau pay the points to min-max at shooting. Plus, you admit yourself, aside from combat doctrines and Chapter Tactics. Marines aren't as bad as you make out.

Plus, Marines are able to outfit varieties of weapons in their Tactical Squads, allowing them to deal with said AV11 and high toughness creatures better. Also, krak grenades are a higher strength, allowing marines to kill AV12 and wound Wraithknights better.

Marines really aren't that bad off. Tau pay for their speciality in shooting, Marines pay for their high stats and jack-of-all-trades nature.

**Vaktathi**

Traditio wrote:
Grizzyzz wrote:I think your asking the wrong question.. I think what you are meaning to ask is "why do they get a s5 base gun".. as a standalone model, a Firewarrior actually "shoots" worse then a space marine being lower BS.

Bull pucky.

They have 1 less BS on the model but 1 more S on their gun. Apart from combat doctrines and chapter tactics, fire warriors and space marines have statistically IDENTICAL shooting. Not to mention that with the 1 higher S, fire warriors can touch things that space marines can't. Fire warriors wound wraithknights on 6s and glance 11 AV on 6s.

That's not fair. At all.

and in CC SM's are an order of magnitude more capable, have access to things like drop pods that Fire Warriors do not, and have organic access to atuff like Meltaguns, Powerfists, Lascannons, Flamers and Meltas that Fire Warriors have no ability to field.

The +1S on their guns is really very minor in comparison, and the ability to glance AV14 or wound WK's is realtively trivial as thats desperation fire in most instances, and SM's with their specialized heavy/special/cc weapons are much more of a threat to such units typically.

**Grizzyzz**

Lets look at something really interesting..

Firewarrior vs. Marine in epic shooty shoot combat!

FW: 9 shots -> 4.5 hits -> 3 wounds -> 1 fail save
SM: 4.5 shots -> 3 hits -> 2 wounds -> 1 fails save

outside rapid fire:
FW: 81 points
SM: 70 points

Inside rapid fire:
FW: 45 points
SM: 42 points

Specifically focused on "shooting" capabilities and NO OTHER SPECIAL RULES...we are evenish matchup within rapid fire range, otherwise without marker support space marines actually are better then Tau one on one between these units.

Didn't expect that outcome to be exactly as this, very interesting.

**Alcibiades**

Grizzyzz wrote:
Lets look at something really interesting..

Firewarrior vs. Marine in epic shooty shoot combat!

FW: 9 shots -> 4.5 hits -> 3 wounds -> 1 fail save
SM: 4.5 shots -> 3 hits -> 2 wounds -> 1 fails save

outside rapid fire:
FW: 81 points
SM: 70 points

Inside rapid fire:
FW: 45 points
SM: 42 points

Specifically focused on "shooting" capabilities and NO OTHER SPECIAL RULES...we are evenish matchup within rapid fire range, otherwise without marker support space marines actually are better then Tau one on one between these units.

Didn't expect that outcome to be exactly as this, very interesting.

I did.

I've done this math before.

The same applies for Space Marines vs. Scions. They are exactly equivalent.

GW sometimes spends more time in unit design than people give them credit for.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

Why should base Tau infantry shoot better than space marines?

Base Tau infantry do not shoot better than Space Marines, other than in terms of a 6" range difference. Mathematically, the BS difference and S difference cancel each other out against everything that is not T8 or AV11. 2/3 x 1/2 and 1/2 x 2/3 are the same, you know.

**oldravenman3025**

"How to make it fun to play against Tau?"

Bring a maniple of Titans and a Deathstrike battery. Promptly stomp and nuke the Space Communists.

**Grizzyzz**

Another funny showing is Ork Shoota vs. Marine

OS: 18shots to deal 1 wound..54 points
SM: 1.5 shots to deal 1 wound..14 points

There you go.. there is your demigod matchup

**Vaktathi**

Alcibiades wrote:
Grizzyzz wrote:
Lets look at something really interesting..

Firewarrior vs. Marine in epic shooty shoot combat!

FW: 9 shots -> 4.5 hits -> 3 wounds -> 1 fail save
SM: 4.5 shots -> 3 hits -> 2 wounds -> 1 fails save

outside rapid fire:
FW: 81 points
SM: 70 points

Inside rapid fire:
FW: 45 points
SM: 42 points

Specifically focused on "shooting" capabilities and NO OTHER SPECIAL RULES...we are evenish matchup within rapid fire range, otherwise without marker support space marines actually are better then Tau one on one between these units.

Didn't expect that outcome to be exactly as this, very interesting.

I did. I've done this math before.

The same applies for Space Marines vs. Scions. They are exactly equivalent.

GW sometimes spends more time in unit design than people give them credit for.

The problem with Scions is that they are 50% more expensive than the fire warriors, rely on their targets to be in the open without any cover save to even achieve parity with the tagets theyre ostensibly specialized to hunt, and have to be within 9" to double tap (which means anything left alive gets to hit back and almost assuredly wipe the Scions

).

Its those instances that show GW really is poor at game design

**Grizzyzz**

Alcibiades wrote:

Base Tau infantry do not shoot better than Space Marines, other than in terms of a 6" range difference. Mathematically, the BS difference and S difference cancel each other out against everything that is not T8 or AV11. 2/3 x 1/2 and 1/2 x 2/3 are the same, you know.

I get the math balance haha, it was the points balance within rapid range that really surprised me haha

**Traditio**

Grizzyzz wrote:
Lets look at something really interesting..

Firewarrior vs. Marine in epic shooty shoot combat!

FW: 9 shots -> 4.5 hits -> 3 wounds -> 1 fail save
SM: 4.5 shots -> 3 hits -> 2 wounds -> 1 fails save

outside rapid fire:
FW: 81 points
SM: 70 points

Inside rapid fire:
FW: 45 points
SM: 42 points

Specifically focused on "shooting" capabilities and NO OTHER SPECIAL RULES...we are evenish matchup within rapid fire range, otherwise without marker support space marines actually are better then Tau one on one between these units.

Didn't expect that outcome to be exactly as this, very interesting.

That's simply not a fair assessment. If you want to assess them, you must assume that they are shooting at an identical target. Here's how they both fare vs. a space marine:

Against a space marine, a space marine with boltgun (not counting combat doctrines or chapter tactics) has: a 2/3 chance of hitting, a 1/2 chance of wounding and a 1/3 chance of bypassing armor. Thus, he has a 1/18 chance of causing an unsaved wound.

Against a space marine, a fire warrior (not counting marker lights) has: a 1/2 chance of hitting, 2/3 chance of wounding and a 1/3 chance of bypassing armor. Thus, he has a 1/18 chance of causing an unsaved wound.

And again, you're failing to take into account:

1. The increased range
2. The ability to touch things that boltguns can't.

Against a wraithknight, a space marine with boltgun has (discounting chapter tactics and combat doctrines): a 2/3 chance of hitting, a 0/6 chance of wounding and a 1/3 chance of bypassing armor. Thus, he has a 0/54 chance of causing an unsaved wound.

Against a wraithknight, a fire warrior (not counting marker lights) has: a 1/2 chance of hitting, a 1/6 chance of wounding and a 1/3 chance of bypassing armor. He has a 1/36 chance of causing an unsaved wound.

At 30 inch range against a space marine:

A space marine with boltgun has a 0/6 chance of hitting, a 1/2 chance of wounding and a 1/3 chance of bypassing armor. Thus, he has a 0/18 chance of causing an unsaved wound.
A fire warrior has a 1/2 chance of hitting, a 2/3 chance of wounding and a 1/3 chance of bypassing armor. Thus, he has a 1/18 chance of causing an unsaved wound.

Fire warriors have identical to better shooting at 5 POINTS LESS PER MODEL than a space marine (again, not counting combat doctrines, chapter tactics and marker lights).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:and in CC SM's are an order of magnitude more capable, have access to things like drop pods that Fire Warriors do not, and have organic access to atuff like Meltaguns, Powerfists, Lascannons, Flamers and Meltas that Fire Warriors have no ability to field.

The +1S on their guns is really very minor in comparison, and the ability to glance AV14 or wound WK's is realtively trivial as thats desperation fire in most instances, and SM's with their specialized heavy/special/cc weapons are much more of a threat to such units typically.

I only wish to note that you simply cannot compare an upgraded space marine to a fire warrior. It's not a fair comparison. A tactical marine with a plasma gun is a 29 point model, whereas the fire warrior is only 9 ppm.

**pm713**

That's hardly some amazing OP ability.

Here's how it works - Tau get more range. Space Marines ignore an entire part of the assault phase and invalidate units designed to sweep on the charge. I agree that is unfair but Tau aren't the guilty ones there.

**Traditio**

pm713 wrote:
That's hardly some amazing OP ability.

Here's how it works - Tau get more range. Space Marines ignore an entire part of the assault phase and invalidate units designed to sweep on the charge. I agree that is unfair but Tau aren't the guilty ones there.

And they pay a premium to do it. What's your point?

**Grizzyzz**

Traditio wrote:

1. The increased range

Range doesn't matter, you have means of getting to me faster then my troops can get to you. ala droppods

Traditio wrote:

2. The ability to touch things that boltguns can't.

6" of range is literally nothing. At that range, your marines move 6" and can now fire their range at my fire warriors.

Traditio wrote:

Against a wraithknight, a space marine with boltgun has (discounting chapter tactics and combat doctrines): a 2/3 chance of hitting, a 0/6 chance of wounding and a 1/3 chance of bypassing armor. Thus, he has a 0/54 chance of causing an unsaved wound.
Against a wraithknight, a fire warrior (not counting marker lights) has: a 1/2 chance of hitting, a 1/6 chance of wounding and a 1/3 chance of bypassing armor. He has a 1/36 chance of causing an unsaved wound.

Nearly 200 shots from pulse rifles to take out a WK, it really means nothing that we can potentially wound them outside the most dire of circumstances. That said.. you have options too.. Krak grenades and the potential to take special issue wargear.

Traditio wrote:

Fire warriors have identical to better shooting at 5 POINTS LESS PER MODEL than a space marine (again, not counting combat doctrines, chapter tactics and marker lights).

As I showed and stated the matchup is about even in shooting.. but where your 5ppm comes from is the laundry list of extra gear and rules your marines have.

Stated it before.. marines are a really good base troop, one of the best.

**Alcibiades**

Traditio wrote:

They're still technologically more advanced, so far as I'm aware, than the Tau, no?

No. They're not. They have ancient "technological" artifacts, but from the point of view of the Imperium these are basically magic weapons. They don't understand anything about them. The Imperium doesn't have technology in our sense at all. They believe that machines work because of the action of spirits, and that those spirits help you because you pray to them and appease them. Tech-Prists are essentially shamans. Space Marines have the weapons they have because it was written somewhere in some holy book thousands of years ago that they should have these weapons, not because somebody sat down and made a cost-benefit analysis of bolters. That's why innovation is heresy -- they are not, as in our understanding, refining equipment, but rather violating the holy laws of the machine, which again is understood as an animate creature.

It's a central part of the setting.

That's why the Tau and innovating and the Imperium is not. The Imperium has ancient magic items er I mean technology lying around that is, well, nigh-magical (and the Imperium thinks that it is magical!). But they will not innovate. They will not put these things together in new ways. Because, as mentiond, that would be violating the holy laws of the machine, which is a living thing.

**pm713**

Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:
That's hardly some amazing OP ability.

Here's how it works - Tau get more range. Space Marines ignore an entire part of the assault phase and invalidate units designed to sweep on the charge. I agree that is unfair but Tau aren't the guilty ones there.

And they pay a premium to do it. What's your point?

That things aren't as unfair as you make out. If they're unfair at all.

**Martel732**

I'd rather have fire warriors than tac marines, but they are far from unfair.

**kingbobbito**

redleger wrote:
As a Tau player who refuses to use Stormsurges in the local meta, I know the feeling of worrying about playing against Tau. Sunday at a tournament, I looked at all the lists, from Eldar to Necrons and feared not a one, With the exception of the other Tau player. In 1850 he brought a small CAD with 2 SSs and a Riptide wing. He had interceptor on everyting, and I was running a beta strike dawn blade with retaliation cadre as my core.

I worried about being tabled turn 1 before I could DS in. I worried about being tabled when I did DS in. When I did arrive, SMS neutered me since I tried to DS out of LOS.

By turn 3 I was just chucking dice out there when he said roll.

On the other hand, I played 2 games previously, which I won, but was by no means a landslide, and came down to 1 or 2 points and my opponents as well as myself were pulling up models from the board in an almost even match up, except the other Tau player that is.

The point is, I played a heavy cheesy suit list, with farsight, killling everything they came in contact with, and the 2 previous games were still fun and competitive. Don't blame Tau if you can't win. My list was not an all comer list, and I paid for it dearly, but I don't blame Tau,

I have been grav gunned to death turn 1 by Space Marines, lost 2 riptides that way, I have been out numbered by Necrons, and had units eaten by scarabs. The shrimp with the tentacles, hate them.

Eldar literally are the bane of my existance. even one WK takes 1 or 2 turns of concentrated fire power giving my opponent freedom of movement.

I have been run over by IG tank lines, even when running OSC.

I have watched as I ran away in fear of being tabled while Admech Skitaari in drop pods ruined my hopes and dreams.

Do not blame Tau. Blame your play style, Your desire to compete, or your inability to adapt.

Final note. The player who spanked me so hard, got spanked hard himself by Eldar WKs and Seer councils. So having watched a 1500 point Eldar list dominate the local meta uncontested, Hate Eldar. No one likes Space Elves.

TL;DR Instead of blaming tau when you lose you should blame yourself. It's your fault because you're not running grav spam or using necrons/eldar, the other two superpowers in the current meta. Buy a wraithknight or you're a loser.

**Spetulhu**

Traditio wrote:
Fire warriors have identical to better shooting at 5 POINTS LESS PER MODEL than a space marine (again, not counting combat doctrines, chapter tactics and marker lights).

The marines are also much better in close combat due to better stats and ATSKNF and whatever buffs they get is usually impossible to take away since it's integral to them unlike Tau Markerlights. The Space Marine squad won't become weaker if you kill another Space Marine squad. The Firewarriors will. That is if the Tau player is actually wasting Markerlights on them instead of a Riptide or suit squad. And ofc, the marines are much less likely to run away when taking casualties.

**Traditio**

Grizzyzz wrote:Range doesn't matter, you have means of getting to me faster then my troops can get to you. ala droppods

Again, that's simply not a fair assessment. At that point, we're no longer comparing a tactical marine to a fire warrior. We are comparing a tactical marine + drop pod to a fire warrior.

6" of range is literally nothing. At that range, your marines move 6" and can now fire their range at my fire warriors.

That's assuming that they are firing at each other. Assuming that they are firing at the same target, that's a volley of shooting one turn earlier.

And even vs. each other: that's a choice on MY turn between either moving into your threat range, taking fire from you, and then moving in and shooting the following turn, or else, NOT taking the risk and selecting a different target.

Traditio wrote:Nearly 200 shots from pulse rifles to take out a WK, it really means nothing that we can potentially wound them outside the most dire of circumstances. That said.. you have options too.. Krak grenades and the potential to take special issue wargear.

1. 1 model per unit may use a grenade in the shooting phase...at an 8 inch range. Do you feel safer firing 10 shots at a wraithknight from 30 inch range or firing a single shot at a wraithknight at 8 inch range? Do pray tell.

2. You cannot compare an upgraded marine to a fire warrior. Again, it's simply not a fair comparison.

3. Let's compare your pulse rifles vs. my sternguard Hellfire ammunion against a WK

Your NINE POINT model with a pulse rifle (not counting MLs) has: a 1/2 chance of hitting, a 1/6 chance of wounding and a 1/3 chance of bypassing armor. At 30 inch range.

My TWENTY TWO POINT model with hellfire ammunion (not counting chapter tactics) has: a 2/3 chance of hitting, a 1/6 chance of wounding and a 1/3 chance of bypassing armor. At 24 inch range.

I repeat: NOT FAIR!

**kingbobbito**

pm713 wrote:
Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:
That's hardly some amazing OP ability.

Here's how it works - Tau get more range. Space Marines ignore an entire part of the assault phase and invalidate units designed to sweep on the charge. I agree that is unfair but Tau aren't the guilty ones there.

And they pay a premium to do it. What's your point?

That things aren't as unfair as you make out. If they're unfair at all.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think anyone has ever said "curses, these tac marines are just so good in CC!" Then you need to also consider that tau will most likely kill melee oriented units with shooting or their massed overwatch, while marines will fire some piddly bolters then get charged and die.

**Vaktathi**

Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:and in CC SM's are an order of magnitude more capable, have access to things like drop pods that Fire Warriors do not, and have organic access to atuff like Meltaguns, Powerfists, Lascannons, Flamers and Meltas that Fire Warriors have no ability to field.

The +1S on their guns is really very minor in comparison, and the ability to glance AV14 or wound WK's is realtively trivial as thats desperation fire in most instances, and SM's with their specialized heavy/special/cc weapons are much more of a threat to such units typically.

I only wish to note that you simply cannot compare an upgraded space marine to a fire warrior. It's not a fair comparison. A tactical marine with a plasma gun is a 29 point model, whereas the fire warrior is only 9 ppm.

The game isnt built around naked individual infantrymen, its built around units, you have to take the unit options and capabilities into consideration. A Space Marine Unit has far more tools to deal with a much wider variety of threats, able to potentially emgage a greater number of targets (combat squads) at potentially even longer ranges than FW's (they dont have anything that can hit out to 48") and can be successful at both shooting an CC.

That Fire Warriors have a couple advantages that SM's dont is not unfair. FW's are slightly better at 12-24" with their basic guns than SM's against a narrow range of targets (that is, again, largely desperation fire), and can hit targets within a 6" range band that SM's cannot with their basic guns, but SM's are *dramatically* better at under 12" once assault ranges are threatened, and have upgrade options to give them far greater reach and versatility than Fire Warriors could ever hope for.

The unit capability is what matters, SM's are not designed or intended to be fielded unupgraded.

**Traditio**

kingbobbito wrote:To be perfectly honest, I don't think anyone has ever said "curses, these tac marines are just so good in CC!" Then you need to also consider that tau will most likely kill melee oriented units with shooting or their massed overwatch, while marines will fire some piddly bolters then get charged and die.

Their massed overwatch. At BS 2 or higher (OVERWATCH BS CAN BE IMPROVED WITH MARKERLIGHTS!). With support fire from nearby squads.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:The game isnt built around naked individual infantrymen

Again, I refuse to enter into a consideration of tactical marine + upgrades vs. fire warriors. That's not what's under consideration.

**Grizzyzz**

Traditio wrote:
kingbobbito wrote:To be perfectly honest, I don't think anyone has ever said "curses, these tac marines are just so good in CC!" Then you need to also consider that tau will most likely kill melee oriented units with shooting or their massed overwatch, while marines will fire some piddly bolters then get charged and die.

Their massed overwatch. At BS 2. With support fire from nearby squads.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:The game isnt built around naked individual infantrymen

Again, I refuse to enter into a consideration of tactical marine + upgrades vs. fire warriors. That's not what's under consideration.

Woah.. firewarriors do not have BS2 overwatch

and thats an extra 5ppm on suit squads.

**Traditio**

Grizzyzz wrote:Woah.. firewarriors do not have BS2 overwatch and thats an extra 5ppm on suit squads.

Oh. Never mind.

Still, though, their overwatch BS can be improved with marker lights. That's completely OP.

**pm713**

Pray tell what is under consideration?

Another units shooting! Hitting on 6's! Nooooo! Tau overwatch is one of the most overly exaggerated thing in the game.

**Vaktathi**

If youre refusing to talk about that, then theres no point in making a comparison, as the game is unit based, and SM units arent intended to be run naked with no upgrades. You're arbitrarily narrowing the discussion in a way that does not reflect the usage and capability of the units.

Even if you want to talk naked infantry, again, FW's advantages are pretty much a 6" rangeband and desperation fire against certain targets, while SM's have a far greater advantage in close quarters and in unit functionality with chapter tactics, combat squads, etc. Naked SM's can relatively easily kill almost any tank in the game on assaults with krak grenades they come with for free, FW's have to hope its AV11 or 10 on whatever armor facing they are in and are far less effective than the SM's with Kraks are.

**kingbobbito**

Traditio wrote:
kingbobbito wrote:To be perfectly honest, I don't think anyone has ever said "curses, these tac marines are just so good in CC!" Then you need to also consider that tau will most likely kill melee oriented units with shooting or their massed overwatch, while marines will fire some piddly bolters then get charged and die.

Their massed overwatch. At BS 2. With support fire from nearby squads.

Three squads of fire warriors firing overwatch is at least 3 times more threatening than a single squad of marines firing overwatch. Losing a model or two from a melee powerhouse on your own turn while you try to charge (that you may fail) is a bit frustrating. Sure, you'll wipe out the fire warriors, but a good melee squad will have no trouble with tacs either. Nothing is more of a slap to the face than losing half a melee squad to 60 overwatch shots from tau.

**Grizzyzz**

Traditio wrote:
Grizzyzz wrote:Woah.. firewarriors do not have BS2 overwatch and thats an extra 5ppm on suit squads.

Oh. Never mind.

Still, though, their overwatch BS can be improved with marker lights. That's completely OP.

You can ask a lot of tau players... overwatch is still crappy, markerlights or not.. If i am lucky i get 1 markerlight hit in overwatch on a good day.. and when that happens only 1 supporting squad gets to fire at bs2 which is still not super great.

unless i have a nice unit of plasma crisis suits nearby, your marines laugh at a line of firewarriors in overwatch.

** I do want to note, if you start charging a line of firewarriors that has multiple units of other FWs nearby Plus an ethereal that popped the +1 shot bubble... then mistakes are being made.

**Traditio**

kingbobbito wrote:Three squads of fire warriors firing overwatch is at least 3 times more threatening than a single squad of marines firing overwatch. Losing a model or two from a melee powerhouse on your own turn while you try to charge (that you may fail) is a bit frustrating. Sure, you'll wipe out the fire warriors, but a good melee squad will have no trouble with tacs either. Nothing is more of a slap to the face than losing half a melee squad to 60 overwatch shots from tau.

I completely agree. Feth Tau. They are just like the Anor Lando archers or the Shrine of Amana.

They simply shouldn't exist in this game.