Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 raverrn wrote:
As soon as you bring formations into it SM get free transports, and that drives cost way, way, way down.

True, but again were getting off topic, free units is a completely other can of worms I would rather not get into right now.

In 7th edition try and find a single unit that BY ITSELF is good at Close combat, or failing that find a unit that is good at CC that is in a predominantly CC army.

Thunderwolves.

Does that really matter though? Practically everything in a Tau army is a threat to a Battle Company. Seems it would be a game slanted towards Tau from the beginning.

 raverrn wrote:
Thunderwolves.

40 PPM cavalry, 4 attacks, (5 on charge, 6 if you givem CCWs I believe) T5 3+ armor, or 55ppm if you give them all 3++ saves. And at least 1 will have a Power Fist so for 5 models your looking at 300pts

easy counter....massed fire power. My lootas would drown this unit in Fire power. Lootaz are 14ppm so I can take 21 against those thunderwolves, Average 2 shots a turn thats 42 shots, 14 hits, and 12 wounds. With a 3++ save you will fail on average 3 of those meaning 1.5 dead thunderwolves, in 2 turns I will have killed 3 and made the unit borderline worthless, and thats against ORK shooting, against Tau? GG.

Are you kidding me? They'll be in combat on the top of turn two, and 3.5 Thunderwolves will murder an arbitrary number of Lootas. They'll do the same to any Tau unit bar a Stormsurge.

Not even mentioning their turn 1 charge shenanigans.

 raverrn wrote:
Are you kidding me? They'll be in combat on the top of turn two, and 3.5 Thunderwolves will murder an arbitrary number of Lootas. They'll do the same to any Tau unit bar a Stormsurge.

Not even mentioning their turn 1 charge shenanigans.

I don't know about how you position your heavy support but i put mine in the back behind the cheap disposable infantry. So how would a turn 1 charge work?

Wulfen Formation that gives you two movement phases. If you want extra reach grab the SW start collecting bundle for run + charge. Combo'd with fleet it's an average 36".

 raverrn wrote:
Wulfen Formation that gives you two movement phases. If you want extra reach grab the SW start collecting bundle for run + charge. Combo'd with fleet it's an average 36".

And you would still have to get by the bubble wrap infantry who are themselves capable of inflicting wounds on the thunderwolves. Not to mention a Nob with a PK hidden in the group which will eat 1-2 of those Thunderwolves himself.

Against Tau yes you would most definitely get that first turn assault, but you would have to survive that ridiculous over watch they put out which will murder most armies.

Amazing how qui you went from "my unit will take yours" to "my unit plus a bunch of others..."

 raverrn wrote:
Amazing how qui you went from "my unit will take yours" to "my unit plus a bunch of others..."

Why did i do that again? ohh yea because you went from 1 unit of thunderwolves to taking a formation to give them 2 movement phases LMAO. But go ahead and crunch the numbers yourself. 1 unit of Thunderwolves equipped however you want versus a similar point total of Lootaz. Lootas win. and Lootas suck.

Put those same TWC against a good armies high volume units and your done.

bs. The first thing you said was "Well, they're bubble wrapped so..."

Put another way you think TWC are the best CC unit, put them against the best shooty unit I can think of, Scat Bikes, Who wins? I'll give you a hint its not the wolves


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 raverrn wrote:
bs. The first thing you said was "Well, they're bubble wrapped so..."

Actually you mentioned the turn 1 shenanigans first and then I mentioned putting them in the backfield where a heavy support unit belongs. The turn 1 shenanigans is when I mentioned bubble wrap. But again, the only way those work is in a formation that gives them an insane buff like double movement.

So you're saying every unit is balanced then? Because one unit that is good against another is bad against yet another unit? If that is the case, why do people complain about tau being OP?

Truth to be told, there are armies that can win tau. Maybe not wreck them, but if you play standard maelstrom missions, things such as gladius strike force and daemon farms literally wins tau by points and sometimes even win in destroying units.

Or a car or plane or one of the half dozen ways to assault out of deep strike. Or be a deathstar, or be dirt cheap, or infiltrate outside 1" and still be able to assault...

There's a reason Tau didn't place in the latest LVO. They're not a top tier army.

They just make their opponents feel bad.

 raverrn wrote:
Or a car or plane or one of the half dozen ways to assault out of deep strike. Or be a deathstar, or be dirt cheap, or infiltrate outside 1" and still be able to assault...

Yeah the new genestealer formation is really awesome! Bad for my tau, but still awesome!

In the previous incarnation of Eldar it was fun to play vs Tau.
For this, I moved my Serpents into position in round one and targeted the Pathfinders to get rid of the marker lights.
The best part began when my outflanking Warwalkers with scatter lasers entered the board.
But I also should mention that the Fire Dragons when disembarking from the Serpents did a lot of damage.

 raverrn wrote:
Or a car or plane or one of the half dozen ways to assault out of deep strike. Or be a deathstar, or be dirt cheap, or infiltrate outside 1" and still be able to assault...

There's a reason Tau didn't place in the latest LVO. They're not a top tier army.

They just make their opponents feel bad.

It is a top tier army. Problem being that ITC doesn't like tau:
1. Drone Factory was banned the week before.
2. No sharing abilities when CFP, and when doing so the target locks stopped working.

and, I must be playing them wrong. my opponents seldom have a problem getting into assault with my guys.

 carldooley wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
Or a car or plane or one of the half dozen ways to assault out of deep strike. Or be a deathstar, or be dirt cheap, or infiltrate outside 1" and still be able to assault...

There's a reason Tau didn't place in the latest LVO. They're not a top tier army.

They just make their opponents feel bad.

It is a top tier army. Problem being that ITC doesn't like tau:
1. Drone Factory was banned the week before.
2. No sharing abilities when CFP, and when doing so the target locks stopped working.

and, I must be playing them wrong. my opponents seldom have a problem getting into assault with my guys.

I would like to state that Tau didn't make top 8... but I know the player that placed top 20 and went 4-0-2 <- a pretty strong showing considering. The opinions of most of the Tau players at LVO was that these "nerfs" didn't really matter to much, if anything made Tau lists more versatile throughout all the lists brought.

___________________

So I think we can all conclude that you can't compare unit A to unit B directly, because every debate escalated into army synergy splashed in to make one better then the other... and guess what that is what 40k is.. making your list synergistic and trying to cover about 60% of the situations you will encounter. Yes even if you do that, you will play lists that you stomp into dust, and you will play lists that stomp you into dust. It is what it is.

I think if most of the effort put in to blame the players, GW, and <insert hated army here>, was put into practicing and learning how to win more than the Kill Points part of the game, most will be better off

To paraphrase: "...models that have CC capabilities factored into their points cost are bad in a game primarily focused on shooting. Tau haven an advantage when they have no CC capabilities factored into their cost and only need to use the easy to utilize shooting capabilities... they define min-maxing"


That's an interesting observation,

comparing underwhelming tactical marines and ork units only serve to evidence how bad those units (and the entirety of the Ork faction) are. Perhaps a more valid comparison would be to compare a top tier assault army such as post Wulfen Space Wolves or mid tier formation heavy KDK with a strong Tau list to see how game breaking the faction is.
From my own experience I've had entire units consistently removed from interceptor, overwatch or a plethora of skyfire, and that says nothing about the high BS, low AP, ignore cover weapons/ abilities they have... I have to acknowledge that most of these abilities are paid for, but does having those buffs being available to mostly everything (through equipment markerlight or formation) break the game or can those force multipliers be effectively countered before they inflict too much damage?

As for making the game fun vs Tau: A packed board filled with LOS blocking terrain with fixed firing lanes open and a strong Tau list that focuses more on fast mobility and positioning than long range ignore cover/LOS firepower

Traditio wrote:
Tau aren't fun to play against. Period.

And I've had root canals that were more fun than playing a game with you would be.

Traditio wrote:
Tau are fundamentally unfun to play against because of how that army operates. By playing Tau, you have opted to play a "broken" codex.

No, I didn't "opt to play a broken codex". I picked Tau because they looked cool and that's basically that. No one said jack gak to me about the rules before I started buying them, and even if they did, I probably wouldn't have thought much of them anyway. Probably would have just thought they were being a fething jerk and ignored them.

Honestly, if some complete stranger walked up to me in a store, started ranting about a game I knew nothing about, and they got hostile with me because I was looking at Tau models, I probably would have called the cops, no joke. Or at least complained to the manager and had them kicked out. Hell, the "40k is a waste of money, buy WARMACHINE!" comments were bad enough.

Traditio wrote:
At this point, I simply have to ask:

Why did you decide to play Tau? Simply because they look cool?

DING DING DING. Yes. Exactly. And I don't know why that's so hard to believe, either. "How on earth could anyone possibly like this thing that I don't like? Does...not...compute!"

Why did you pick Space Marines?

Traditio wrote:
Or because you knew that they were a really strong army?

In 4th edition they weren't. Although this is kind of a stupid question anyway, because I imagine most people don't want to knowingly play a bad army, since being constantly at a disadvantage isn't fun. Clearly, or you wouldn't be in here bitching about Tau right now.

Also, when I started looking into the tabletop version I just naturally assumed, like with most other games I've played, that the armies would all be relatively balanced and that picking one was just a matter of personal preference. To me, the idea that a game focused around a model-building hobby, which costs hundreds and hundreds of dollars to get into, with over a dozen playable factions, had some factions that were just inherently superior to all others and some that were hot garbage and not at all worth playing, just seemed really, really stupid, and I couldn't imagine a company that does business internationally surviving for as long as GW has if that were the case. What a surprise that turned out to be!

Traditio wrote:
How much research did you do before deciding to play Tau?

I played Dawn of War, basically, and Tau seemed cool. That was my "research".

Traditio wrote:
Were you unaware of the general Tau hate when you purchased your codex and models?

Yes, because being my younger, dumber self, I assumed we were all adults and that people didn't take games that seriously. I couldn't imagine something so stupid as a grown-ass man having real, genuine hate for a range of plastic miniatures, especially to the point where said grown-ass man starts to harass other people for liking those miniatures that he doesn't like.

Apparently I was fething wrong.

Martel732 wrote:
I liked the Tau vehicle upgrade that made them fast, but not fast. That was so thematically accurate.

Yeah, the vehicular multi-tracker if I'm not mistaken. Stuff like that, and the advanced stabilization system upgrade for broadsides which allowed them to move and fire their guns, actually gave Tau players some incentive to move gak around.

But then GW thought that was lame, apparently; they took it away in 6th edition and turned us into the much-loved turtle masters we are now who never leave their deployment zone ever.

Of course the multi-tracker wouldn't matter even if we did get it back, since no one in their right mind would take vehicles now anyway...unless they're literally free. Tanks are so bad now, and weapons like the hammerhead railgun so useless, that even being able to move and fire like a fast vehicle again wouldn't be enough to convince me that they're worth wasting points on.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:And Space Marine armour is constructed.

The armor is. The marine isn't. Thus the toughness value and the armor save.

The riptide is not literally a robot, it's a giant suit of armor with a flesh and blood Tau piloting it in the center. It's basically a giant Space Marine.

So going by that logic you can justify giving walker stats to Space Marines, and literally just about any other heavy infantry unit in the game.

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:
A SM is humanities Elite, he is armed with a rapid fire rifle that shoots RPGs for all intents and purposes. If Tau had the same S4 with 30 inch range it wouldn't be as big of a deal, but since GW decided to give these guys a S5 rifle at 30 inches it becomes a big deal. Not to mention they can then buff entire units with better BS and ignores cover for a few more points.

You could make pulse rifles S4 if you really, really wanted and I don't think I could possibly give less of a gak about anything ever again in my life. Fire warriors, like your tactical Marines, aren't what's going to be doing all the damage anyway. They don't matter.

This almost feels like a joke...watching people bitch endlessly about fire warriors and S5, all while they're being bent over the table by riptide wings, getting stomped on by multiple storm surges or pulling big handfuls of models off the table because of super overwatch. No, you're right, the two min-sized squads of fire warriors sitting in reserves or doing literally nothing in the backfield are to blame...pay no attention to the army of colossi with tank guns strapped to their arms disintegrating everything on the table.

Meanwhile, the Eldar are utterly dominating the meta and even outnumbering Space Marine players at tournaments, and their codex is so good that you can almost literally select units at random and still end up with a good list, but meh.

I would just like to note that "Eldar are more broken!" is not a defense of the Tau codex, nor does it make the Tau more fun to play against

It's like saying that Pol Pot was fine because Hitler existed.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I would just like to note that "Eldar are more broken!" is not a defense of the Tau codex, nor does it make the Tau more fun to play against

It's like saying that Pol Pot was fine because Hitler existed.

Not sure I like my favorite faction be equated to Hitler but OK lol

As for Fire Warriors being broken because they have a 30" S5 gun.

They had a 30" S5 gun in 4th edition and nobody complained they were broken then. They had a 30" S5 gun in 5th edition and weren't broken. They have dropped 2 points per model once you factor in photon grenades and have gained Supporting Fire, both of which do precisely nothing until the enemy is within 12" of the unit and charging them and even then Supporting Fire relies on other units with the same rule being nearby.

Now the move and fire at max range on Rapid Fire weapons actually benefits other armies more than Tau. With this rule if your marines are within 30" then the Tau can shoot you but the next turn you can close 6" and return fire at 24" with your boltguns. Previously, if the Tau were shooting you at 30" then your marines would move 6" to close the range to 24" but then could only shoot up to 12" and so had to sit still and wait until the next round to return fire. So your marines had to weather two rounds of shooting before being able to return fire compared to the one round they face now.

So is dropping 2 points whilst retaining the exact same wargear and statline whilst the rules make it easier for armies to respond to Fire Warrior shooting made them horrendously OP, or is it the other stuff that Tau have gained which have made them stronger?

I'd also like to point out that the latter stuff is not generally something which, in my experience, Tau players were asking for prior to the 6th edition codex update. We weren't asking for super unkillable, undercosted giant mecha. We basically wanted: Crisis and Stealth suits to drop in price (and get a new Crisis and Broadside kit), Fire Warriors to get a new kit, the ability to take Crisis suits as Troops in a Farsight army, Hammerhead squadrons and not requiring pathfinders to take a devilfish. More Kroot options was also a popular wish. Out of all that we got cheaper crisis suits, the pathfinder change and the crisis troops when the farsight enclaves rules were released. Then they took away the systems which made our vehicles work (fire-as-fast and split fire), made Broadsides the size of a dreadnought with no corresponding change in toughness whilst also weakening their iconic gun to be basically useless and gave us the abomination of the Riptide which required massive retcons of the fluff in order to justify its existence.

Every time I see a thread like this as a Tau player, the people who are complaining just blow my mind. Almost universally everyone is complaining about the wrong units, and it just confuses me so so much. Like, are y'all just playing with bad Tau players? What is going on here.

Let's give a quick run down of Tau units in the codex.

HQs
Commander - Outside of a buffmander or mark'o, literally nobody cares.
Ethereal - Cheap HQ option, nice for the 6+ fnp or stubborn. For 50 points, not bad.
Farsight - Are you playing a Farsight bomb? (Don't, it's bad). Cool, he's unplayable.
Shadowsun - Not good, either?
Aun'shi - Bet you haven't even heard of this guy.
Aun'va - The space pope. Bet you nobody here has even seen this model in person
Cadre Fireblade - Underappreciated Tau HQs, but not bad for their points.
Darkstrider - Bet you've never seen this guy played, either. Amazing in a Hunter Contingent, but I've yet to meet a Tau player who has built that.

So, of the HQs, there are really: Ethereals, Buffmanders, Mark'Os, Fireblades, and Darkstrider. Which of these are broken OP? Maaaaybe some of you don't like the Buffmander, but for 200 points he's not exactly cheap. He's the equivalent to a Chapter Mater with the Shield Eternal and/or Hunters Eye. Know which one I'd take? Hmm...

Troops
Strike Teams - These are getting complained about in here? Huh? Who runs mass Firewarriors? Who thinks that's even playable? Who are you people losing to Firewarriors? They're T3, 4+ save dudes. They're as durable as IG vets with no special weapons, except they're BS3. Who here thinks IG vets are OP? Let's run through some counters:
Eldar - Shoot them with bikes.
Marines - Heavy flamers in drop pods, Heavy flamers in landspeeders, a Thunderfire cannon.
Necrons - Shoot them with immortals.
Admech - Shoot them with anything. Or assault them with the fast dudes. Or jus ignore them.
IG - Shoot them with any number of AP4 large blasts.

I can continue, but really guys. If Firewarriors are beating you, you need to build better lists. They just straight up aren't very good.

Breacher teams - These are unplayably bad. 5" range for the good profile, lol, okay. Then they become worse then the above bad Firewarriors.
Kroot - Yay for outflanking shenanigans? I don't think anyone is arguing Kroot are good. They're not.

All Tau troops are bad. The only ones potentially worth playing are Crisis Suits through Farsight, and even then, no.

Elites
Stealth Battlesuits - They cost as much a Terminator but are T3 3+ and fire a worthless gun! Woo! Seriously overpriced, these things are tax on Ghostkeels.
Crisis Battlesuits - They're 52 points a model for a T4 3+ no invuln no cover 2W model. Krak Missiles, hoooo!
Ghostkeels - Now, these are a really good unit. One of the best in the Tau codex. Nobody is complaining about them, though. Weird? I'll leave that alone, but really. Complain about these. The OSC makes them worth complaining about (kind of? It's still a 600 point formation that dies to assault marines.).
Riptides - All of the complaining that revolves around these things blows my mind. Yes, they're hard to kill (If you don't have grav or D or the ability to assault, so... low tier codecies, I guess?), but they don't do very much. The IA gets hot 1/6th of the time. It scatters 2/3rds of the time at BS3. The odds of this thing actually hitting on target are 32.4%. The odds of it missing completely are 32.4%. Not a typo, same percentage. So basically, a third of the time it works, a third of the time it doesn't, a third of the time it kind of does.

How does this scare you? It's a 200 point model that makes Grey Knight Paladins and Ork Mega Armoured Nobs afraid. Nobody else should care? Seriously?

Fast Attack
Drone Teams - Nobody takes them outside of the Mark'O build.
Piranhas - When's the last time you saw one of these?
Pathfinders - Also terrible unless they're in the Ranged Support Cadre, then they're playable.
Devilfish - 80 points for 12 11 10 3 HP. Hah.
Sunshark - Have you ever seen a Tau flier?
Razorshark - See above?
Vespid - Worst unit in the book. Get fethed, auxiliaries.

Heavy Support
Sniper Drone Team - BS5 markerlights is nice. Only ever seen one person use them, these are underappreciated.
Hammerheads - Single shot railguns! Ion cannons! On 130 point platforms that are vehicles with AV13 front? And can't move? Please. I wish Hammerheads were good. I got into Tau for the grav-vehicles aesthetic and because I loooooved Railguns as a child. They're terrible. If I could run a Tau armoured company with 6 Hammerheads, 6 Warfish, 3 Skyrays and some fliers, I would go down on that SO hard. But I would lose 80-90% of my games, which sucks a lot.
Skyrays - Probably the best vehicle Tau have for the markerlights and the fact that they're cheap, but still not great.
Broadsides - The other OP unit in our Codex (as far as that attitude goes. Nothing in our Codex is OP, check ANY tournament results. No Tau are winning gak. Thanks Eldar.) Broadsides are really good. They're also static as feth, and die to meltaguns like you would not believe. A tac squad with melta combi melta in a drop pod will go point efficient against Broadsides a lot of the time, assuming you can survive the interceptor (the other reason these are really good).
Stormsurges - These boys are also good, but have a few key weaknesses. The first being they're T6 3+, so Krak Missiles are a problem. Knights with gatling cannons are a BIG problem. Anything with power firsts is a problem. They require some work to bring down for sure, and put out a lot of firepower, but they're also fething 380 points if kitted lightly, 430 if kitted with a shield. Go compare that to a wraithknight and get back to me.


So, yeah. There are like 5-6 playable units in this Codex. The rest of it is REALLY bad. I lose a majority of my games as Tau against my friends, and then do decently (3-0 and 4-1 normally) at tournaments. But I'm never winning anything. It's a matter of knowing what you're doing, target priority, and flexible list design.

A Space Marine list with Hunters Eye, Centurions in a pod, and 4 tac squads in pods will run my day real fast. So will ignore cover relic tanks. There are plenty of answers to Tau, and good tournament players know them. I don't know what's going on with Firewarriors and Riptides, sounds like bots posting from 6e, but the world has evolved.

LockeWatts wrote:
I lose a majority of my games as Tau against my friends, and then do decently (3-0 and 4-1 normally) at tournaments. But I'm never winning anything. It's a matter of knowing what you're doing

I think I see the problem the h8ers are having.

This thread has given me the impression that Tau get hate way out of proportion to any reasonable analysis of their codex, just because everything about them rubs certain people the wrong way. If we were a low-tier list they would still find reasons to hate us, because just by existing we force them to think differently about how they play, how the 40k universe works, and how to regard RL people who are different from them.

There are valid complaints to be made, about playing against Tau. But when I wrote this thread I assumed everyone already knew them (non-interactive, superheavies, etc.). I was looking for ways to get around them, not to enable scrubs who don't want to change up the way that they play, but so I can change up the way that I play, to make things more challenging / interesting. Because believe it or not, I don't enjoy sitting on gunlines and being unable to contest the rest of the board. Or curbstomping fellow newbies.

Thanks to everyone who's provided constructive analysis and suggestions. Especially Sidstyler. That was epic.

No thanks to the scrubs who (collectively) called the Tau Pol Pot and called for Tau players' extermination, without any hint of irony.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LockeWatts wrote:

Riptides - All of the complaining that revolves around these things blows my mind. Yes, they're hard to kill (If you don't have grav or D or the ability to assault, so... low tier codecies, I guess?), but they don't do very much. The IA gets hot 1/6th of the time. It scatters 2/3rds of the time at BS3. The odds of this thing actually hitting on target are 32.4%. The odds of it missing completely are 32.4%. Not a typo, same percentage. So basically, a third of the time it works, a third of the time it doesn't, a third of the time it kind of does.

How does this scare you? It's a 200 point model that makes Grey Knight Paladins and Ork Mega Armoured Nobs afraid. Nobody else should care? Seriously?

Thank you so much for pointing this out in detail.

The Riptide is a Distraction Carnifex. If you're freaking out about it, it's doing its job.

Can you not ask your friends to just bring their A-Game when you play them =P

Honestly my philosophy regardless of what army I play and what "level" it is constructed has always been... if its legal 40k then by all means have fun. You paid for the models, you took the time to paint them OR spent more money to have them painted.. Your proud of what you have, not me or anyone else should be able to tell you to pack up and go home.

As I think this thread is about all its gonna be for "advice", I would say if you really are worried about it, run a CAD, don't run any of the formations and aside from that just play what you want. Don't bring a GMC unless they have one etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LockeWatts wrote:

I lose a majority of my games as Tau against my friends, and then do decently (3-0 and 4-1 normally) at tournaments. But I'm never winning anything. It's a matter of knowing what you're doing, target priority, and flexible list design.

I don't lose the majority of my games lol, but i am about 60/40 now. It used to be heavy losses because I wasn't as good of a player.. yes even losing to Deldar, BA, orks, chaos.. etc.. and I still do on occasion because my friends are good players themselves.

Tau are top teir so people will just hate as I stated before.

 Jewelfox wrote:

LockeWatts wrote:

Riptides - All of the complaining that revolves around these things blows my mind. Yes, they're hard to kill (If you don't have grav or D or the ability to assault, so... low tier codecies, I guess?), but they don't do very much. The IA gets hot 1/6th of the time. It scatters 2/3rds of the time at BS3. The odds of this thing actually hitting on target are 32.4%. The odds of it missing completely are 32.4%. Not a typo, same percentage. So basically, a third of the time it works, a third of the time it doesn't, a third of the time it kind of does.

How does this scare you? It's a 200 point model that makes Grey Knight Paladins and Ork Mega Armoured Nobs afraid. Nobody else should care? Seriously?

Thank you so much for pointing this out in detail.

It is an incorrect assesment however. A BS3 large blast will still hit its intended target about 60% of the time, as scatter subtraction allows for it to either remain on target or still clip whatever the hole was originally over. If its a larger target, like an MC or vehicle, the hit percentage goes up further

The Riptide is a Distraction Carnifex.

you dont see Tyranid armies running gobs of carnifexes, or even routinely running them at all. They also cant strike from across the board, and have nothing near the resiliency or mobility. You basically never see a Tau army without Riptides.

Ok didn't really bother reading 12 pages, except from the last page of this thread and the OP's message, and by going through the last page my assumption that the thread would be turned into an "Ergh, Tau" boxing match was correct.

For advise I would look into the following:

1) Screw what some thread says: Why? because I think your area wont be reading Dakka religiously enough to care about what a few hundred people said/voted on some thread. Talk to your area ask them questions about the lists you want to bring and if they feel comfortable with them, if not then consider the following what exactly do the not feel comfortable with?

2) Try Highlander: If people aren't comfortable with some units en.massed then try a Highlander-esque list just take one unit of certain units that your area does not feel comfortable with.

3) Try fish-o-fury, its said that this list is still hard to pull off but it can be done, in addition it adds dynamism to the list. One of the most common complaints I read on tau is how static they are, which at times can lead to really one sided games which no one enjoys, so promote some mobility.

4) Try Supremacy objective and your codex specific ones. lost of people say that these objectives are hard to pull off, but i feel after having a few games with them is that they are more geared for assault-orientated armies as my Orks seem to really love them, so using them with your Tau may add more challenges to your games but improve further dynamism which may lead to closer games.

Hope this helps

LockeWatts wrote:
Every time I see a thread like this as a Tau player, the people who are complaining just blow my mind. Almost universally everyone is complaining about the wrong units, and it just confuses me so so much. Like, are y'all just playing with bad Tau players? What is going on here.

Let's give a quick run down of Tau units in the codex.

HQs
Commander - Outside of a buffmander or mark'o, literally nobody cares.
Ethereal - Cheap HQ option, nice for the 6+ fnp or stubborn. For 50 points, not bad.
Farsight - Are you playing a Farsight bomb? (Don't, it's bad). Cool, he's unplayable.
Shadowsun - Not good, either?
Aun'shi - Bet you haven't even heard of this guy.
Aun'va - The space pope. Bet you nobody here has even seen this model in person
Cadre Fireblade - Underappreciated Tau HQs, but not bad for their points.
Darkstrider - Bet you've never seen this guy played, either. Amazing in a Hunter Contingent, but I've yet to meet a Tau player who has built that.

So, of the HQs, there are really: Ethereals, Buffmanders, Mark'Os, Fireblades, and Darkstrider. Which of these are broken OP? Maaaaybe some of you don't like the Buffmander, but for 200 points he's not exactly cheap. He's the equivalent to a Chapter Mater with the Shield Eternal and/or Hunters Eye. Know which one I'd take? Hmm...

Troops
Strike Teams - These are getting complained about in here? Huh? Who runs mass Firewarriors? Who thinks that's even playable? Who are you people losing to Firewarriors? They're T3, 4+ save dudes. They're as durable as IG vets with no special weapons, except they're BS3. Who here thinks IG vets are OP? Let's run through some counters:
Eldar - Shoot them with bikes.
Marines - Heavy flamers in drop pods, Heavy flamers in landspeeders, a Thunderfire cannon.
Necrons - Shoot them with immortals.
Admech - Shoot them with anything. Or assault them with the fast dudes. Or jus ignore them.
IG - Shoot them with any number of AP4 large blasts.

I can continue, but really guys. If Firewarriors are beating you, you need to build better lists. They just straight up aren't very good.

Breacher teams - These are unplayably bad. 5" range for the good profile, lol, okay. Then they become worse then the above bad Firewarriors.
Kroot - Yay for outflanking shenanigans? I don't think anyone is arguing Kroot are good. They're not.

All Tau troops are bad. The only ones potentially worth playing are Crisis Suits through Farsight, and even then, no.

Elites
Stealth Battlesuits - They cost as much a Terminator but are T3 3+ and fire a worthless gun! Woo! Seriously overpriced, these things are tax on Ghostkeels.
Crisis Battlesuits - They're 52 points a model for a T4 3+ no invuln no cover 2W model. Krak Missiles, hoooo!
Ghostkeels - Now, these are a really good unit. One of the best in the Tau codex. Nobody is complaining about them, though. Weird? I'll leave that alone, but really. Complain about these. The OSC makes them worth complaining about (kind of? It's still a 600 point formation that dies to assault marines.).
Riptides - All of the complaining that revolves around these things blows my mind. Yes, they're hard to kill (If you don't have grav or D or the ability to assault, so... low tier codecies, I guess?), but they don't do very much. The IA gets hot 1/6th of the time. It scatters 2/3rds of the time at BS3. The odds of this thing actually hitting on target are 32.4%. The odds of it missing completely are 32.4%. Not a typo, same percentage. So basically, a third of the time it works, a third of the time it doesn't, a third of the time it kind of does.

How does this scare you? It's a 200 point model that makes Grey Knight Paladins and Ork Mega Armoured Nobs afraid. Nobody else should care? Seriously?

Fast Attack
Drone Teams - Nobody takes them outside of the Mark'O build.
Piranhas - When's the last time you saw one of these?
Pathfinders - Also terrible unless they're in the Ranged Support Cadre, then they're playable.
Devilfish - 80 points for 12 11 10 3 HP. Hah.
Sunshark - Have you ever seen a Tau flier?
Razorshark - See above?
Vespid - Worst unit in the book. Get fethed, auxiliaries.

Heavy Support
Sniper Drone Team - BS5 markerlights is nice. Only ever seen one person use them, these are underappreciated.
Hammerheads - Single shot railguns! Ion cannons! On 130 point platforms that are vehicles with AV13 front? And can't move? Please. I wish Hammerheads were good. I got into Tau for the grav-vehicles aesthetic and because I loooooved Railguns as a child. They're terrible. If I could run a Tau armoured company with 6 Hammerheads, 6 Warfish, 3 Skyrays and some fliers, I would go down on that SO hard. But I would lose 80-90% of my games, which sucks a lot.
Skyrays - Probably the best vehicle Tau have for the markerlights and the fact that they're cheap, but still not great.
Broadsides - The other OP unit in our Codex (as far as that attitude goes. Nothing in our Codex is OP, check ANY tournament results. No Tau are winning gak. Thanks Eldar.) Broadsides are really good. They're also static as feth, and die to meltaguns like you would not believe. A tac squad with melta combi melta in a drop pod will go point efficient against Broadsides a lot of the time, assuming you can survive the interceptor (the other reason these are really good).
Stormsurges - These boys are also good, but have a few key weaknesses. The first being they're T6 3+, so Krak Missiles are a problem. Knights with gatling cannons are a BIG problem. Anything with power firsts is a problem. They require some work to bring down for sure, and put out a lot of firepower, but they're also fething 380 points if kitted lightly, 430 if kitted with a shield. Go compare that to a wraithknight and get back to me.


So, yeah. There are like 5-6 playable units in this Codex. The rest of it is REALLY bad. I lose a majority of my games as Tau against my friends, and then do decently (3-0 and 4-1 normally) at tournaments. But I'm never winning anything. It's a matter of knowing what you're doing, target priority, and flexible list design.

A Space Marine list with Hunters Eye, Centurions in a pod, and 4 tac squads in pods will run my day real fast. So will ignore cover relic tanks. There are plenty of answers to Tau, and good tournament players know them. I don't know what's going on with Firewarriors and Riptides, sounds like bots posting from 6e, but the world has evolved.

Your assessment is mostly spot on. Breachers though can be pretty good with the right list to support them. The top Tau list at LVO had some. Crisis Battlesuits can be good but trying to find enough of the new weapons to field a team with their new non-experimental gun is hard. The one that is str 7 and short range. Drones are usually preferred markerlight platform in tournaments because when paired with the commander and his build it makes them very effective and they are all average toughness of 4 as opposed to pathfinders 3. Piranah Firestream wing and Drone Net is extremely potent combination from FSE. Drown them in drones.

A lot of good Tau lists these days have to bring Y'vahrahs to stand any chance at winning tournaments.

So actually I am going to post my 2000 point list i usually take here for critique from those who hate playing Tau to see what you think.

We have started following ITC at my FLGS.. it matters

Dawn Blade: Retaliation Cadre
Fusion Blade commander
1x3 misslesides, plasma, target locks
Riptide, IA, fusion, FNP, EWO
1x3 Crisis, dual plasma
2x3 Crisis, dual burst cannons
+
Drone Net:
4x4 Marker drones
+
Piranha Firestream:
4x1 Piranha, 2 seekers, MTC
+
Allies: Ghostkeel wing:
3x1 Ghostkeel, Raker, flamers, EWO


I left out some of the fine tuned equipment.. but this is the gist of it... OK IM READY, let me have it.