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Martel732 wrote:
I understand and agree with several Tau points on here. It still remains that it is unfun to deal with something as durable as the Riptide or Stormsurge. Even if my codex could field them, I don't want to use invisible Centurions.

One thing which really annoyed me about the new Tau formations is that basically every formation which has massed crisis suits also has a Riptide. I don't want a goddamn Riptide, GW!

the_scotsman wrote:
There's a guy where I play whose Tau list is an absolute blast to play. His theme is "as close to close combat as possible while not being in it", and he can play any level from casual to super competitive.

He primarily runs short ranged crisis suits, breacher teams, Piranhas, stealth teams, carbine drones and the new Ghostkeel suit with its close range option.

He creates extremely mobile glass cannon short ranged lists and extensively uses terrain. If you want to play competitive, you'll be up against the new Tau-curion with Optimized Stealth Cadre and if you're into fluffy play you'll be fighting an on-foot strike team of breachers backed up by melta stealth suits fighting house-to-house and using terrain to their advantage.

His lists are more fun than any shooting-only army I've ever seen since 5th ed, and he is by far the most popular Tau player in a gaming group I've ever encountered. All that, and he can still punch it out with the most competitive players in our club (who run Gladius, Centstar, WK/Scatbike spam and the like).

I really want to play with lists like that. So tempting to run with pulse carbines instead of rifles sometimes. I have 2 new boxes of fire warriors that Im probably going to run as breachers as two strike teams are already enough.

Traditio wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
So actually I am going to post my 2000 point list i usually take here for critique from those who hate playing Tau to see what you think.

We have started following ITC at my FLGS.. it matters

Dawn Blade: Retaliation Cadre
Fusion Blade commander
1x3 misslesides, plasma, target locks
Riptide, IA, fusion, FNP, EWO
1x3 Crisis, dual plasma
2x3 Crisis, dual burst cannons
+
Drone Net:
4x4 Marker drones
+
Piranha Firestream:
4x1 Piranha, 2 seekers, MTC
+
Allies: Ghostkeel wing:
3x1 Ghostkeel, Raker, flamers, EWO


I left out some of the fine tuned equipment.. but this is the gist of it... OK IM READY, let me have it.

Crisis suits and a riptide?

No thanks.

Your Retaliation Cadre need 3 units of Crisis teams not three models. Split off the two man team into two individual units and then your legally good. Unless you meant that you have two separate burst cannon ones.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

FURTHER =P bit of advice, pathfinders are bad at shooting and incredibly squishy.. continuing the theme of marines, You have so many options to immediately deal with this problem.. drop a tac squad in a pod with a flamer.. wipe them out in one pass as they have 5+ saves at T3.

Even if for sake of argument we simply take this as fact, Pathfinders are far from the only thing in the Tau codex that can take markerlights. Practically every suit can take marker drones, and every Fire Warrior Team leader can take a markerlight and a target lock. So, basically to remove all that markerlight support, a Tau player's opponent has to eliminate practically every suit and character in the Tau player's army, which is no small task by any stretch - certainly a lot harder to accomplish than getting rid of a few squishy Pathfinders.

 Gamgee wrote:

Your Retaliation Cadre need 3 units of Crisis teams not three models. Split off the two man team into two individual units and then your legally good. Unless you meant that you have two separate burst cannon ones.

1x3 => 1 unit of 3
2x3 => 2 units of 3

I'm legal


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

FURTHER =P bit of advice, pathfinders are bad at shooting and incredibly squishy.. continuing the theme of marines, You have so many options to immediately deal with this problem.. drop a tac squad in a pod with a flamer.. wipe them out in one pass as they have 5+ saves at T3.

Even if for sake of argument we simply take this as fact, Pathfinders are far from the only thing in the Tau codex that can take markerlights. Practically every suit can take marker drones, and every Fire Warrior Team leader can take a markerlight and a target lock. So, basically to remove all that markerlight support, a Tau player's opponent has to eliminate practically every suit and character in the Tau player's army, which is no small task by any stretch - certainly a lot harder to accomplish than getting rid of a few squishy Pathfinders.

Since those marker sources aren't networked, in practice they are not taken often. And marker drones are bs2 unless your paying more points for a drone controller and on normal crisis troops thats now 8 pts more for bs3? still not great...

Additionally, it requires you to cascade fire onto your targets, either overkilling them or wasting the points you spent in markerlights because you opt to not cascade and waste them.

The single best source of markerlights comes from the commander called "mark'o" which is either a buff commander joined to missle crisis teams with markerlights OR just a barebones guy running around with his ~6 marker drones hoping he doesnt get shot at. Again tho, this unit is anywhere from 200-400 points and the markers are targeting ONE unit.

So yeah, Tau is really good at taking out one major unit a turn. MSU is our bane.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
So yeah, Tau is really good at taking out one major unit a turn. MSU is our bane.

From the cries it seems Tau have markerlights enough to remove cover from every enemy unit and boost every friendly unit to BS5. Could it be possible that not only the complainers have misunderstood something but maybe some Tau players too? As in using non-networked MLs to boost units that couldn't possibly benefit? It wouldn't be the first time someone's made an error and used an army resource wrong.

Traditio wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Since I play orks, I can safely say that tau are fun to play...if all of their models are proxies for another army.

I love orks.

1. The players who play orks aren't playing to win. They are generally all-around fun people with generally agreeable personalities. If you tell me that you play orks, I automatically assume that you'd be a riot. I want to have a beer with you.

2. If you play orks, I don't even care if I win. Chances are, your army looks cool and has a ton of personality. I don't care if you stomp me. Orks, bro!'

Tons of fun will be had regardless of the outcome of the game.

Cool bro, I'll share a pint. Or two. Or Quarts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One big solution to the whole ignores cover issue with marker lights would be for marker lights to give ignores cover on non-infantry units only.

That way, if the tau want to light up godzilla they can, but a diligent marine would at least have a chance to duck.

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:


I guess you missed that thing I said in an earlier post about this being in a vacuum.

No I saw that.

But the thought experiment describes a) something that cannot happen at all and b) actually winds up with the Orks winning, thus proving the opposite of what was intended to be proven. What you have actually done is show that Ork Boys running across an open field against equal points of Fire Warriors will win.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
So yeah, Tau is really good at taking out one major unit a turn. MSU is our bane.

From the cries it seems Tau have markerlights enough to remove cover from every enemy unit and boost every friendly unit to BS5. Could it be possible that not only the complainers have misunderstood something but maybe some Tau players too? As in using non-networked MLs to boost units that couldn't possibly benefit? It wouldn't be the first time someone's made an error and used an army resource wrong.

It's entirely possible.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
So yeah, Tau is really good at taking out one major unit a turn. MSU is our bane.

From the cries it seems Tau have markerlights enough to remove cover from every enemy unit and boost every friendly unit to BS5. Could it be possible that not only the complainers have misunderstood something but maybe some Tau players too? As in using non-networked MLs to boost units that couldn't possibly benefit? It wouldn't be the first time someone's made an error and used an army resource wrong.

This came up in another thread too where a few people were talking about markerlights like they boost the same squad. Hopefully not as much as it seems..

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
So yeah, Tau is really good at taking out one major unit a turn. MSU is our bane.

From the cries it seems Tau have markerlights enough to remove cover from every enemy unit and boost every friendly unit to BS5. Could it be possible that not only the complainers have misunderstood something but maybe some Tau players too? As in using non-networked MLs to boost units that couldn't possibly benefit? It wouldn't be the first time someone's made an error and used an army resource wrong.

This came up in another thread too where a few people were talking about markerlights like they boost the same squad. Hopefully not as much as it seems..

Yeah...no, it didn't. That was how yourself and several Tau players interpreted it.

If you take Markerlight or Marker Drones in a squad of Fire Warriors or Stealth Suits, it's not so that you can gain a benefit for that squad. It's so that in the course of them performing their shooting(usually accompanied by them consuming Markerlight counters to begin with to grant Ignores Cover or +BS), you can add more Markerlight counters for the next squad who might fire at that same target--or so that you can Target Lock off of your squad's main target and put a Markerlight Counter onto another unit.

I've ran into a local player who does such a thing, and he basically just attempts to daisy chain Markerlights down the field. His OSC's Stealth Suits all purchase a Markerlight and Target Lock for the Shas'vre and Marker Drones for the unit as well. His goal is to just saturate the board with Counters when possible, and if he only gets 1 to hit? Well, that's a point of BS he didn't have before.

When we're talking about some units(a trio of Ghostkeels in a single squad in an OSC firing as part of a Coordinated Firepower attack combined with a trio of Riptides in a Retaliation Cadre and a unit of Broadsides from that same RC both only firing SMS, for example) not needing that many Markerlight Counters to reach BS 5(Broadsides are +1 if they Deep Striked that turn, otherwise they could just be getting +1 for being part of a CFA, and +1 for consuming a Markerlight Counter) 6(BS3 base, +1 for being Fire Team and having 3 MCs, +1 for being part of a Coordinated Firepower attack, +1 for consuming a Markerlight counter to boost their BS by 1 point) or possibly even as high as 7(Riptide as part of a RC deep-striking +1, +1 for being a Fire Team of 3, +1 for CFA, +1 for consuming a Markerlight) and don't need to consume Markerlight Counters to gain the benefits of Ignores Cover(or in the case of the units firing SMS--they don't even need LOS to participate, and they're Ignoring Cover natively)...those little bits add up to making Markerlights split-firing off not a terrible idea.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yeah...no, it didn't. That was how yourself and several Tau players interpreted it.

? no it actually did, when people were assuming firewarriors could field networked markerlights.. v

 Kanluwen wrote:


If you take Markerlight or Marker Drones in a squad of Fire Warriors or Stealth Suits, it's not so that you can gain a benefit for that squad. It's so that in the course of them performing their shooting(usually accompanied by them consuming Markerlight counters to begin with to grant Ignores Cover or +BS), you can add more Markerlight counters for the next squad who might fire at that same target--or so that you can Target Lock off of your squad's main target and put a Markerlight Counter onto another unit.

I've ran into a local player who does such a thing, and he basically just attempts to daisy chain Markerlights down the field. His OSC's Stealth Suits all purchase a Markerlight and Target Lock for the Shas'vre and Marker Drones for the unit as well. His goal is to just saturate the board with Counters when possible, and if he only gets 1 to hit? Well, that's a point of BS he didn't have before.

When we're talking about some units(a trio of Ghostkeels in a single squad in an OSC firing as part of a Coordinated Firepower attack combined with a trio of Riptides in a Retaliation Cadre and a unit of Broadsides from that same RC both only firing SMS, for example) not needing that many Markerlight Counters to reach BS 5(Broadsides are +1 if they Deep Striked that turn, otherwise they could just be getting +1 for being part of a CFA, and +1 for consuming a Markerlight Counter) 6(BS3 base, +1 for being Fire Team and having 3 MCs, +1 for being part of a Coordinated Firepower attack, +1 for consuming a Markerlight counter to boost their BS by 1 point) or possibly even as high as 7(Riptide as part of a RC deep-striking +1, +1 for being a Fire Team of 3, +1 for CFA, +1 for consuming a Markerlight) and don't need to consume Markerlight Counters to gain the benefits of Ignores Cover(or in the case of the units firing SMS--they don't even need LOS to participate, and they're Ignoring Cover natively)...those little bits add up to making Markerlights split-firing off not a terrible idea.

Your absolutely right its not a terrible idea. It is about balance. And the general interpretation of the view of the tau community is not as you put it "1 marker light hit here and there", its we can boost every single unit as much as we want, and that is simply not the case. A unit OSC as you describe is going over 500 points.. A well kitted retaliation cadre with 3 man crisis teams and only 1 riptide is 1000 points.. toss in 2 more riptides you are now at a 2000 point list (including the OSC) without taking a dedicated source of markerlights outside of many 1 or 2 marker drones in a squad here or there. Again.. not terrible, but not always the best approach. And most certainly not overpowered as everyone says... In your friends lists, he is using the formations for more bonuses then the marker lights themselves... good show! As he should

Tau pay for all their toys. And other lists can pay for theirs. Tau have counters for cover saves, Marines have Grav for MCs, Demons get to hold every objective they touch because they are selfish And then their is chaos.. still crying in the corner.. someday .. someday..

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I understand and agree with several Tau points on here. It still remains that it is unfun to deal with something as durable as the Riptide or Stormsurge. Even if my codex could field them, I don't want to use invisible Centurions.

One thing which really annoyed me about the new Tau formations is that basically every formation which has massed crisis suits also has a Riptide. I don't want a goddamn Riptide, GW!

I feel the same.
I've got 11 crisis (and one converted from a recon drone as a buff'vre) and a single riptide. needless to say the formation riptide/crisis ratio do not please me.


Though, Ive also have 6 hammerheads in various levels of construction laying around. and I detest skyrays. so my collection as a whole don't quite fit to how the formations are set up.

I really think it's the formations and new MC's that push Tau over the top.
I got into Tau originally because I wanted to play the Alien Federation. I always liked the minor alien races in the 40k universe and wanted them to get more screen time, I thought the Tau army would eventually lead to that. When the vespids released it certainly seemed that way, but it turns out I was very wrong. Looking at competitive lists, it's all suits and MCs, and the Riptide wing is perhaps the biggest offender.

I think the reason most people hate Tau is the same reason most people hate Necrons (which is very different from hating marines and eldar). Necrons and Tau are not an interactive opponent, and I say this as someone who plays all 4 armies.

With my Eldar, unless bike spam, you do see move across the board and do damage, and you do get to remove my models (I just remove a lot more). It looks like I'm playing dynamically, and Eldar are hated for their OP synergies and units rather than playstyle. It's been this way since 3rd IMO (anyone claiming they were weak in 4th is crazy).

With my Marines, its also a very dynamic force. It's many small units zipping around the board getting within 24" to do serious damage. Grav is often hated, and the popularity of the force is extremely hated on, but the playstyle isn't really hated on outside of a few formations (Gladius mainly).

Compare that to Necrons and Tau, which are arguably weaker than the above forces but get nearly the same hate if not more. Necrons move up the field in waves while dealing pretty good ranged damage before entering into a brutal assault. They aren't interactive since they don't zip around or care about your shooting much; they either have the model count and toughness to win or they don't, and it makes the game feel like a dice simulator.

Tau are very similar to this. With the extreme range and firepower, it feels that you are basically moving forward as quick as you can (no point in cover since marker lights are a thing) and hoping enough models reach the tau that you can win in CC. Its basically a dice simulator game, with either the Tau or the opponent getting crushed.

While the Necron game is much worse (in terms of fun, imo) the tau one feels more unfair.


Anyone who thinks a Riptide is equivalent to a Carnie is just wrong. Especially in the Wing formation. Carnies are okay and pump out decent shoots, but the Riptide in the Wing can delete units in 1-2 turns while being incredibly tough and having a crazy range.

I don't play my Tau much anymore. Out of the above 4, I play my Tau the least followed quickly by necrons. Usually my Eldar or SM get requested more for fights, and I spam Warp Spiders so I doubt it's a power issue.

See its funny because I am literally the opposite. I play Tau the most then Eldar.. but most of my group asks me to play my Tau (largely because i am the only active player right now with Tau)

My group tends to play more competitively so maybe most of the issues are left at the door or fixed with ITC FAQ.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
See its funny because I am literally the opposite. I play Tau the most then Eldar.. but most of my group asks me to play my Tau (largely because i am the only active player right now with Tau)

My group tends to play more competitively so maybe most of the issues are left at the door or fixed with ITC FAQ.

Not sure, my group is pretty much only competitive all the time. Occasionally someone will request a low powered game so we can break out the CSM or Orks, but the vast majority of our games feature Decurions and Centstars. We don't do too much with allies unless it makes sense, but last edition we certainly saw the Baron running around the ulthwe craftworld

Most of us own Eldar and SM, half of us own Crons, and about 1/3 of us own Tau. I never get any requests to face Tau, its usually quite the opposite. I don't get many requests for Crons either though, its mainly eldar and SM that people would rather face. I think my craftworld has done more to lead the eldar race to an early grave than any craftworld in the fluff

I still believe it's due to playstyle. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that Tau or Necrons are stronger than Eldar or Marines, yet it seems the complaints from the weaker factions eclipse the stronger ones. It could be due to relative popularity though, I imagine more people own SM and Eldar than Tau or Necron.

Akiasura wrote:

I still believe it's due to playstyle. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that Tau or Necrons are stronger than Eldar or Marines, yet it seems the complaints from the weaker factions eclipse the stronger ones. It could be due to relative popularity though, I imagine more people own SM and Eldar than Tau or Necron.

This certainly factors in, and was discussed some in the earlier pages of this thread. I guess people just enjoy when I charge them with my Tau enough to deal with all of the background chatter


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now.. my possible NOVA Open lists that i am putting together.. I won't post because I don't feel like being yelled at for pages and pages

IMO tau and necrons are the most broken armies in the game. Eldar just has a few overtuned units that can be spammed and space marines have a single formation that abuses maelstrom format. Necron and tau quite literally have both - overtuned units with overpowered formations - it takes them to a whole new level of gak. Space marines are actually a very crappy army and virtually non competitive without formations and allies. Eldar are a fantastic army but still have bad matchups and require skill to play. Tau just stand still and blast everything away ignoring half the phases and rules in the game - if they go first they almost automatically win. Necrons ehhh...what can I say - a scarab unit has a better chance of living through a wolfen charge than an imperial knight does...it's disgusting.

@Xenomancers: Can you elaborate as to how a scarab unit has a better chance of living through a wulfen charge than an imperial knight does?

How many scarabs? Because, by my little back of the envelope math, I don't think it's possible for something to be easier for TWC to kill than scarabs (assuming they have the mandatory power fists, and if they don't...well, they've got zero chance of killing the IK, and they will still kill several scarabs...)

Hit on 2's, wound on 2's, instant death, ignore the armor save....

they might get a 5++ res protocol if taken in a canoptek harvest decurion?

Are the new Space Wolf/Daemon formations really so new that people haven't realized just how ridiculously powerful they really are? Having 2 SW players and one Chaos Daemon player in my FLGS, I've personally seen how futile it is to go up against these things. Twice now, I've seen my Decurion tabled (yes, tabled) by turn 3 by these Wulfen and TWC while I'm rolling average. What hope do IG/CSM/Nids/Orks have against these things?

Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.

Do Eldar with scatbikes, Spiders and wraithknights really take skill to play?

I can't help but draw a LITTLE joy at hearing a Necron player is flabbergasted by his models dying.

It happens to everyone, man. Learn to deal with it?

 EnTyme wrote:


Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.

Probably because the main competitive build was nerfed and Wulfen die to S8 AP4. They're not as tough as people make out with shooting.

 EnTyme wrote:
Are the new Space Wolf/Daemon formations really so new that people haven't realized just how ridiculously powerful they really are? Having 2 SW players and one Chaos Daemon player in my FLGS, I've personally seen how futile it is to go up against these things. Twice now, I've seen my Decurion tabled (yes, tabled) by turn 3 by these Wulfen and TWC while I'm rolling average. What hope do IG/CSM/Nids/Orks have against these things?

Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.

Some of the Daemon formations are quite strong and the SW ones are as well. Honestly, if I had to rank them, I would say they lie just outside of the top 4, possibly with SW edging out Necrons as the 4th place choice.
I'm not much a daemon player, got a nasty taste in my mouth from them during my fantasy days, but SW are my favorite loyalist faction, right ahead of UM. I love the new formations, but they don't hold a candle to Eldar, Marines, or Tau. Eldar and Tau especially have a pretty easy time with SW if you take the right formations/units. Honestly, I think their disadvantaged matchup against Eldar and SM could be what keeps them out of the top 4 (As in, SW/Daemons beat Necrons, but Necrons have a better game against Eldar and SM than they do, so the power rankings could be seen in many different ways).

IG, CSM, Nids, and Orks don't have a prayer against any of the top armies. That's not really proof that SW are up there with the Top armies, though I certainly agree that they easily are in the consideration.

I do agree that part of it is the newness. Another part of it is that Daemons have always been a bit of a odd duck in 40k and don't play like any other faction, and the randomness only draws a small pool of players. They have always been the rarest opponent, even when they are a relatively strong dex. SW draws a lot of ire, more ire than UM or GK from many, almost as much as Tau, especially from their 5e days where every CSM player was using their Dex. The TWC only build they had going around for a while turned a lot of players off, myself included.

Loving the new SW dex, though I wish it had fixed my favorite unit (scouts).

pm713 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:


Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.

Probably because the main competitive build was nerfed and Wulfen die to S8 AP4. They're not as tough as people make out with shooting.

And with the Murderpack formation bonuses, I'm guaranteed to get charged by at least half the SW army on turn one, so better make those Overwatch shots count!

 EnTyme wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:


Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.

Probably because the main competitive build was nerfed and Wulfen die to S8 AP4. They're not as tough as people make out with shooting.

And with the Murderpack formation bonuses, I'm guaranteed to get charged by at least half the SW army on turn one, so better make those Overwatch shots count!

Your tables sound really small if that's happening with any consistency.

Akiasura wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Are the new Space Wolf/Daemon formations really so new that people haven't realized just how ridiculously powerful they really are? Having 2 SW players and one Chaos Daemon player in my FLGS, I've personally seen how futile it is to go up against these things. Twice now, I've seen my Decurion tabled (yes, tabled) by turn 3 by these Wulfen and TWC while I'm rolling average. What hope do IG/CSM/Nids/Orks have against these things?

Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.

Some of the Daemon formations are quite strong and the SW ones are as well. Honestly, if I had to rank them, I would say they lie just outside of the top 4, possibly with SW edging out Necrons as the 4th place choice.
I'm not much a daemon player, got a nasty taste in my mouth from them during my fantasy days, but SW are my favorite loyalist faction, right ahead of UM. I love the new formations, but they don't hold a candle to Eldar, Marines, or Tau. Eldar and Tau especially have a pretty easy time with SW if you take the right formations/units. Honestly, I think their disadvantaged matchup against Eldar and SM could be what keeps them out of the top 4 (As in, SW/Daemons beat Necrons, but Necrons have a better game against Eldar and SM than they do, so the power rankings could be seen in many different ways).

IG, CSM, Nids, and Orks don't have a prayer against any of the top armies. That's not really proof that SW are up there with the Top armies, though I certainly agree that they easily are in the consideration.

I do agree that part of it is the newness. Another part of it is that Daemons have always been a bit of a odd duck in 40k and don't play like any other faction, and the randomness only draws a small pool of players. They have always been the rarest opponent, even when they are a relatively strong dex. SW draws a lot of ire, more ire than UM or GK from many, almost as much as Tau, especially from their 5e days where every CSM player was using their Dex. The TWC only build they had going around for a while turned a lot of players off, myself included.

Loving the new SW dex, though I wish it had fixed my favorite unit (scouts).

Let me clarify my complaint. The new formations didn't fix a lot of issues the SW had, but it went a long way in buffing what was already probably the best CC unit in the game (TWC). My complaint isn't that SW are any more broken than the top 4 armies (Eldar, Necrons, SM, and Tau in no particular order), but they are every bit as broken as those armies, yet I still have listen to complainst (daily) about my chosen army (which I honestly chose just because the models were badass. learning they were one of the current top armies was just gravy) while no one is calling out SW for having some pretty damn powerful rules.

And as far as me getting used to removing models, I don't run a Decurion when I'm not playing a top-tier army, so I'm actually pretty used to it. Just not used to getting tabled with absolutely no recourse.

 EnTyme wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Are the new Space Wolf/Daemon formations really so new that people haven't realized just how ridiculously powerful they really are? Having 2 SW players and one Chaos Daemon player in my FLGS, I've personally seen how futile it is to go up against these things. Twice now, I've seen my Decurion tabled (yes, tabled) by turn 3 by these Wulfen and TWC while I'm rolling average. What hope do IG/CSM/Nids/Orks have against these things?

Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.

Some of the Daemon formations are quite strong and the SW ones are as well. Honestly, if I had to rank them, I would say they lie just outside of the top 4, possibly with SW edging out Necrons as the 4th place choice.
I'm not much a daemon player, got a nasty taste in my mouth from them during my fantasy days, but SW are my favorite loyalist faction, right ahead of UM. I love the new formations, but they don't hold a candle to Eldar, Marines, or Tau. Eldar and Tau especially have a pretty easy time with SW if you take the right formations/units. Honestly, I think their disadvantaged matchup against Eldar and SM could be what keeps them out of the top 4 (As in, SW/Daemons beat Necrons, but Necrons have a better game against Eldar and SM than they do, so the power rankings could be seen in many different ways).

IG, CSM, Nids, and Orks don't have a prayer against any of the top armies. That's not really proof that SW are up there with the Top armies, though I certainly agree that they easily are in the consideration.

I do agree that part of it is the newness. Another part of it is that Daemons have always been a bit of a odd duck in 40k and don't play like any other faction, and the randomness only draws a small pool of players. They have always been the rarest opponent, even when they are a relatively strong dex. SW draws a lot of ire, more ire than UM or GK from many, almost as much as Tau, especially from their 5e days where every CSM player was using their Dex. The TWC only build they had going around for a while turned a lot of players off, myself included.

Loving the new SW dex, though I wish it had fixed my favorite unit (scouts).

Let me clarify my complaint. The new formations didn't fix a lot of issues the SW had, but it went a long way in buffing what was already probably the best CC unit in the game (TWC).

I agree that SW have a lot of issues that went unaddressed, many of the units in the dex are awful and they are weak to flyers (which isn't as big a deal as it used to be) and still struggle against MSU style lists.
It did, however, make them a lot more competitive. I disagree that TWC were the best CC unit in the game, I think wraiths were superior and now its about tied, with TWC running a better "star". It's not important, TWC with formations probably edge out wraiths now, and is one of the reasons the Decurion struggles against SW. Wraiths are the big punch of the Decurion style list after all.

 EnTyme wrote:

My complaint isn't that SW are any more broken than the top 4 armies (Eldar, Necrons, SM, and Tau in no particular order), but they are every bit as broken as those armies, yet I still have listen to complainst (daily) about my chosen army (which I honestly chose just because the models were badass. learning they were one of the current top armies was just gravy) while no one is calling out SW for having some pretty damn powerful rules.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that while the powerful rules does elicit some complaining, it certainly doesn't cause the most of the complaining. Otherwise, you would see Eldar and Marines dominating the complainers, rather than Tau and Necrons. Heck, necrons wouldn't make anyone's radar! Instead, you pretty much see the opposite...Tau are complained about the most, Necrons and Eldar come next (and I think eldar is only due to a few posters that refuse to admit how good they are) and SM the least (possibly due to popularity, most people own or have owned a marine army at some point. CSM whining having stopped helps as well).

I also don't think that SW are as good as the top 4. Maybe necrons, but probably not even that good. They struggle way too much against Tau, Eldar, and Marines. A teleporting grav cent star really puts a TWC on the back foot.

For some reason, people are extremely upset about Tau sitting back without moving much and just firing your army off the board. They don't enjoy the necrons slowly plodding forward while absorbing shot after shot. The games feel like dice simulators against those forces, and I do play those forces.
Against SW, you are actively trying to dodge my TWC while shooting me down. I'm attempting to reach melee without dying. We probably both lose some models (unlike Crons and Tau) and the game feels much more dynamic and interesting than the Tau or Necron game. The only time CC has not been seen as "fun" is when you could get into CC with another squad after winning combat, essentially daisy chaining most armies out of the game (especially horde armies).

Tau have always had this problem. They don't really play 40k, and I say this as someone who owns Tau. They don't move, they don't psyker, they don't assault, they have synergies between units that don't require die rolls or formations (for the most part, though they do have excellent formations), they spam the most MCs (which feels very out of character, imo), they just shoot and buff until you die. Personally, I think GW went completely the wrong way with Tau and it shows in how the player base reacts to the army. The alien federation angle would have played much better, as well as opening up a lot of politics and interesting fluff, but maybe that's wishful thinking.

 EnTyme wrote:

And as far as me getting used to removing models, I don't run a Decurion when I'm not playing a top-tier army, so I'm actually pretty used to it. Just not used to getting tabled with absolutely no recourse.

You have recourse. I've played Necrons into SW before, and the Flying Bakery still does quite well. You just can't run the standard decurion into it, since the TWC stars will eat the wraiths for lunch.

**EDIT - I went back and actually read the OP **

Play an old school Tau army: Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Devilfish, Hammerheads and KROOT!

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO tau and necrons are the most broken armies in the game. Eldar just has a few overtuned units that can be spammed and space marines have a single formation that abuses maelstrom format. Necron and tau quite literally have both - overtuned units with overpowered formations - it takes them to a whole new level of gak. Space marines are actually a very crappy army and virtually non competitive without formations and allies. Eldar are a fantastic army but still have bad matchups and require skill to play. Tau just stand still and blast everything away ignoring half the phases and rules in the game - if they go first they almost automatically win. Necrons ehhh...what can I say - a scarab unit has a better chance of living through a wolfen charge than an imperial knight does...it's disgusting.

You are under selling the Eldar, They don't have a few over tuned units, they have the three most overtuned units in the game, which are so abused you rarely get to see their other overtuned units. BTW scarabs are toughness 3, With ID they have next to zero chance of surviving a wolfen charge. Not to take any credibility from your complaints, but I believe you are mistaken on the units you are complaining about, you probably mean a unit of wraiths, not scarabs. The answer is maybe, a 3++ and two wounds will only carry you so far against 40 str 8 attacks, but with hot dice and a formation, and a tomb spider, one or two of them might survive out of a max sized unit of 6. But without power weapons, and only three attacks each, they are unlikely to be able to get more than 1 or 2 in return before the lower cost wulfen finish them off.