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Fair enough, wasn't jumping on the 'Tau please nerf bandwagon' with the SMS thing, just figured they would be one of those peices of wargear that would really hurt some of the more boring Eldar lists out there.

To get back to the point of the thread and my misgivings with Markerlights, the mass utility and the ability to strip cover and in effect invalidate entire armies really does frustrate me. We can debate ceaselessly about whether the markerlight functionality is overpowered or not, from a gameplay perspective its just boring to play against as I imagine it is to play.

I'd support the following:

-Increasing the BS of infantry and direct fire weapons,
-expending 3-4 tokens to make blast weapons have the shred special rule
-rail guns the armourbane/fleshbane special rules

Or just different benefits for different units using the markerlights would have been fun and interesting.

Or instead of relying on markerlights.. more special interactions when two or more allied units do something to promote the feeling of interlocking tactics would have been fun and would offer distinct bonuses dependent on if you were playing in a Mont'ka or Kauyon fashion... it could have been so much more fun...

Instead Tau treat markerlights as an all encompassing resource that binds the army together to provide the arguably most powerful... and most bland and lifeless abilities available.

Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Torus wrote:

Forgive me if I'm wrong (again I should really buy the Tau codex if only for research purposes) but can't you get SMS on the Stormsurge platforms?

Ok so ..

fire warriors can bring a turret for 15? pts that has sms as an option.. they can only use it if they dont move.. and the entire unit including the turrent is firing at the target *for the most part.. i realize the sarge could potentially have splitfire.. but your again buying a ton of upgrades to do this..

Broadsides come with them for free but its weird as some targets you want to target with SMS the HYMP are overkilling or can't fire at because LOS, and the other way.. SMS doesnt hurt the target the HYMP can.. still a good offensive unit though.

Devilfish and Hammerheads and skyrays may upgrade their attached drones to SMS for 10 pts. Now.. on a hammerhead this means your railgun/ion is shooting the same thing as the SMS . Its good on a skyray because you can launch all your seekers and then just use the SMS. devilfish is very viable for this upgrade as that would be their only weapon.

Stormsurge has one.. but is that really what the opponent would be worried about with the stormsurge? probably not.. and that platform is over 400 points with a shield

Way to miss his point. It's far more widespread than "Broadsides, Riptides, and Tau vehicles" isn't it?

I didn't miss his point.. people were discussing units at large.. I felt like it would benefit the discussion to list out the available platforms. If anything I backed his point that we have multiple platforms to run SMS.

Kanluwen wrote:
So yeah. Fire Warriors get them "if they stay still" as a 15 point upgrade. If they move--they have to wait a turn before the turret comes back.
But guess what? The turret comes back. Any other army with a squad based HW, that 15 point upgrade is gone if it goes away. Enemy models also cannot attack or affect a DS8 Tactical Support Turret.

This is true, but if your shooting at firewarriors.. more then likely that squad will either be wiped out by shooting.. or they will fail their LD7 and run away anyway.. so I think the lack of interaction isn't a huge power change. My opinion though.

Kanluwen wrote:

grizzyzz wrote:
It doesn't invalidate them. They would still be able to flicker jump, potentially out of range.. but yes it is a very good counter as they can't jump out of LOS, and not needing LOS means Tau can use that to stop any deepstrike in their bubble and force a flicker choice.

Yes, they can jump out of range--but they can't jump out of LOS.
How do you not understand that is a huge advantage? It means there is a 30" bubble of "NOPE!" around any units equipped with SMS and EWOs. You can't Deep Strike or Outflank in without potentially taking casualties before you ever get to use the unit.

How did you not understand my point? (check bold) .. I just wanted to clarify the difference in the use of "invalidate" .. which a casual reader may interpret as "a warp spider is not able to flicker jump". Further, I agreed that SMS for Tau is their counter to warp spider deep strike spam.

Although the caveat to all of this being.. If you play ITC, then SMS cannot intercept out of LOS.. you can only intercept from what the model can see.. so there you go. your prayers have been answered

Kanluwen wrote:
How many points is it to upgrade to Marker or Shield Drones?
Oh right. Free.

I am not sure exactly your point here? Also there is no free upgrade. A drone squad can be an combination of marker, gun, or shield drones @14pts per drone. Within a unit that has the option to purchase (not all can), these are taken at 12pts per model.

Torus wrote:
Fair enough, wasn't jumping on the 'Tau please nerf bandwagon' with the SMS thing, just figured they would be one of those peices of wargear that would really hurt some of the more boring Eldar lists out there.

It was not my intention to call you or anyone else out. You asked a question (maybe it was sarcastic).. so I merely wanted to list the units that can take sms to aid the discussion. Otherwise I agreed with you on SMS is Tau's counter to mass warp spider spam.

Torus wrote:
To get back to the point of the thread and my misgivings with Markerlights, the mass utility and the ability to strip cover and in effect invalidate entire armies really does frustrate me. We can debate ceaselessly about whether the markerlight functionality is overpowered or not, from a gameplay perspective its just boring to play against as I imagine it is to play.

To each their own I suppose. Again this doesn't even apply to me personally, there are many lists of mine that I don't even bring markerlights (i just maximize the formation bonuses.. .far more reliable)

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Torus wrote:

Forgive me if I'm wrong (again I should really buy the Tau codex if only for research purposes) but can't you get SMS on the Stormsurge platforms?

Ok so ..

fire warriors can bring a turret for 15? pts that has sms as an option.. they can only use it if they dont move.. and the entire unit including the turrent is firing at the target *for the most part.. i realize the sarge could potentially have splitfire.. but your again buying a ton of upgrades to do this..

Broadsides come with them for free but its weird as some targets you want to target with SMS the HYMP are overkilling or can't fire at because LOS, and the other way.. SMS doesnt hurt the target the HYMP can.. still a good offensive unit though.

Devilfish and Hammerheads and skyrays may upgrade their attached drones to SMS for 10 pts. Now.. on a hammerhead this means your railgun/ion is shooting the same thing as the SMS . Its good on a skyray because you can launch all your seekers and then just use the SMS. devilfish is very viable for this upgrade as that would be their only weapon.

Stormsurge has one.. but is that really what the opponent would be worried about with the stormsurge? probably not.. and that platform is over 400 points with a shield

Way to miss his point. It's far more widespread than "Broadsides, Riptides, and Tau vehicles" isn't it?

I didn't miss his point.. people were discussing units at large.. I felt like it would benefit the discussion to list out the available platforms. If anything I backed his point that we have multiple platforms to run SMS.

No, what you were doing is choosing to act as though these individual units are somehow lessened by having SMS. You predicated everything upon how you "need" to buy upgrades or other silly points.

Kanluwen wrote:
So yeah. Fire Warriors get them "if they stay still" as a 15 point upgrade. If they move--they have to wait a turn before the turret comes back.
But guess what? The turret comes back. Any other army with a squad based HW, that 15 point upgrade is gone if it goes away. Enemy models also cannot attack or affect a DS8 Tactical Support Turret.

This is true, but if your shooting at firewarriors.. more then likely that squad will either be wiped out by shooting.. or they will fail their LD7 and run away anyway.. so I think the lack of interaction isn't a huge power change. My opinion though.

Cover is a thing. And it's not like there aren't cover modifiers in some Tau formations, amirite?

And hell--it's not like Tau didn't just get their own unique set of fortifications that can cause vehicles to glance themselves to death with weapons that would otherwise never be able to glance, right?

Kanluwen wrote:

grizzyzz wrote:
It doesn't invalidate them. They would still be able to flicker jump, potentially out of range.. but yes it is a very good counter as they can't jump out of LOS, and not needing LOS means Tau can use that to stop any deepstrike in their bubble and force a flicker choice.

Yes, they can jump out of range--but they can't jump out of LOS.
How do you not understand that is a huge advantage? It means there is a 30" bubble of "NOPE!" around any units equipped with SMS and EWOs. You can't Deep Strike or Outflank in without potentially taking casualties before you ever get to use the unit.

How did you not understand my point? (check bold) .. I just wanted to clarify the difference in the use of "invalidate" .. which a casual reader may interpret as "a warp spider is not able to flicker jump". Further, I agreed that SMS for Tau is their counter to warp spider deep strike spam.

I understood your point. However I also have argued this point with you several instances, and most of the time your reply is "Well it's S5 AP5".

Who gives a crap if it's S5 AP5? It's S5 AP5 Heavy 4 Ignores Cover Homing. You continually act as though the lack of AP and the BS needed to hit with Tau units is a hindrance while ignoring the fact that it is an exclusively twin-linked system with a relatively high ROF, a large range, and almost exclusively(barring Tau vehicles and the new Support Drone) on platforms with easy access to Interceptor.

That's why I keep trying to press home that SMS are a HUGE advantage, with or without Markerlights.

Although the caveat to all of this being.. If you play ITC, then SMS cannot intercept out of LOS.. you can only intercept from what the model can see.. so there you go. your prayers have been answered

That's nice. Unfortunately, not everyone plays ITC.

Kanluwen wrote:
How many points is it to upgrade to Marker or Shield Drones?
Oh right. Free.

I am not sure exactly your point here? Also there is no free upgrade. A drone squad can be an combination of marker, gun, or shield drones @14pts per drone. Within a unit that has the option to purchase (not all can), these are taken at 12pts per model.

Unless you and I have different Tau Empire codices, that is not the case. Page 101 of the 2012 Tau Empire codex specifically states that a Drone Squadron may upgrade any Gun Drone to Marker Drone or Shield Drone for free.

The purchased Drones for Fire Caste stuff are 12 points. Those costs do NOT apply to the Drone Squadrons.

How can people even complain about EWO is baffling to me.

What does it do? hit people that deep strike/reserve. EWO does nothing if you actually play straight and deploy on the field.
So, basically, in order for it do even do ANYTHING, you need to first try to pull off your own "I get to shoot first and there is nothing you can do about it" move.

Oh my, how despicable of the tau to not allow up to grantee we will always get the first shot.




As for the SMS, seriusly? THATS a problem? a S5AP5 gun that ignores cover and LOS? being AP5 the fact it ignores cover is irrelevant against anything stronger than guardsmen. and the fact it ignores LOS? so does a whirlwind. and a TFC. and a basilisk, and a medusa, and thudd guns, and artillery carriages, and mortars, heavy mortars, night spinners, lobbas, impaler cannon, ironstork missile pod and every godamn barrage gun in the game. not everyone has one, but most does, either personally or through battle brothers. actually, the only ones who don't have any LOS ignoring guns even with BB are necron.
Most of them are never even taken! even though some of them are far FAR stronger than the SMS. they are simply actual units and not tac-on to things you actually want.

The SMS itself wouldn't have been taken on most units if there was any alternative, but there simply isn't. the fact it ignores LOS is almost never relevant, as it would mean the MAIN GUN isn't shooting if you needed to use that trick.
Broadside can pay to replace it with plasma. and the plasma don't match the range of the main guns at all.
Riptide can switch to plasma or fusion for free, but these again don't quite match in ranges, the plasma is hardly required due to the IA being too good against heavy armor to begin with (the VERY FIRST problem in tau I said), and the fusion being better suited elsewhere. had a riptide been able to take none at all for being 20 points cheaper (the cost of a TLFB/TLPR for crisis suits), everyone would do that.
In tanks, you can get either SMS, burst cannon or 2 drones for the same price. sooo...everything else is even worse than the SMS and with irrelevant range as far as a tank cares. having the SMs cost even more would be silly considering the tanks are pretty lousy even with it. has they cost 10 points less with 10 points to turn drone/burst to SMS, most would stick to drone/burst.
Devilfish pays 10 to switch it's drones to an SMS. but, it already got a burst cannon, so having another gun hardly even helps as it will now snap shoot the burst cannon. not much of an upgrade.
Fire warriors can get an SMS turret upgrade, that requires not moving to set up, and if you do more later on, the turret is destroyed, also FW dies to a stern look, so erasing the squad and removing the gun isn't hard. few people take FW to begin with, fewer still upgrade them to have turrets.



Also, drones upgrading to marker FOR FREE?
HOLY HELL. its like every other equal weapon switch out there!
So freaking WHAT if the marker itself is "free", the drone isn't. a drone with markers don't have guns, a drone with a shield don't have markers or guns. its a freaking choice. you already paid for it when you bought the unit. same as scouts change for FREE between bolter, pistol+sword or shotgun. the price is in the scout.

On topic of how to make it fun to play Tau, you could put in my personal favourite fix for the Riptide Ion Accelerator.

Remove the non-Nova blast profile and reduce the range of the Nova profile to 36". Means if you want a large blast you have to:

1) Get closer to your enemy
2) Sit still the turn you want to fire due to Ordnance
3) Nova charge the weapon

So in order to drop a large blast on an opponent you have to forego the 3++ or 3D6" jump whilst at the same time getting closer to the enemy and then they have a turn to react after you've moved before you can actually fire the thing.

 BoomWolf wrote:
How can people even complain about EWO is baffling to me.

What does it do? hit people that deep strike/reserve. EWO does nothing if you actually play straight and deploy on the field.
So, basically, in order for it do even do ANYTHING, you need to first try to pull off your own "I get to shoot first and there is nothing you can do about it" move.

Oh my, how despicable of the tau to not allow up to grantee we will always get the first shot.

I'll tell you what, you can have EWO if my Raven Guard Chapter detachment makes it so you cannot Overwatch against my Assaults.

I mean, how despicable of the Raven Guard to not allow us to guarantee we will always get the charge right?

As it stands, my Chapter unique formations(Pinion, Shadowstrike Kill-Team, Ravenhawk Assault Group, etc) are neutered by the simple existence of EWO.

As for the SMS, seriusly? THATS a problem? a S5AP5 gun that ignores cover and LOS? being AP5 the fact it ignores cover is irrelevant against anything stronger than guardsmen. and the fact it ignores LOS? so does a whirlwind. and a TFC. and a basilisk, and a medusa, and thudd guns, and artillery carriages, and mortars, heavy mortars, night spinners, lobbas, impaler cannon, ironstork missile pod and every godamn barrage gun in the game. not everyone has one, but most does, either personally or through battle brothers. actually, the only ones who don't have any LOS ignoring guns even with BB are necron.
Most of them are never even taken! even though some of them are far FAR stronger than the SMS. they are simply actual units and not tac-on to things you actually want.

Whirlwinds and TFCs are most definitely taken.
Basilisks aren't taken because Guard armor is crap. The Artillery Company formation in Mont'ka has kinda/sorta alleviated this because finally a huge honking cannon used to level bunkers can Ignore Cover...with an Order.
Medusae, Thudd Guns, Artillery Carriages, and Heavy Mortars are FW and their usage is dependent on such a fact.
Mortars aren't taken because they're crap. You want to pretend that a S5 AP5 weapon that ignores cover and LOS is bad--try actually looking at a mortar sometime.
Since we both know you won't and you don't know what you're talking about, Mortars are S4 AP6 Heavy 1, Barrage, and Blast. So they cannot be Snap Fired, they only get Ignores Cover via a Company Command Squad Order or landing directly behind the cover and if the Mortar is fired Indirectly then the BS of the firer cannot be applied to the scatter results.

The SMS itself wouldn't have been taken on most units if there was any alternative, but there simply isn't. the fact it ignores LOS is almost never relevant, as it would mean the MAIN GUN isn't shooting if you needed to use that trick.

So what if the main gun isn't shooting? Seriously--do you not understand how your own stuff works?

EWO the SMS if you're able to--which you basically will be, if whatever it is comes on in 30" of the EWOing SMS.

Broadside can pay to replace it with plasma. and the plasma don't match the range of the main guns at all.
Riptide can switch to plasma or fusion for free, but these again don't quite match in ranges, the plasma is hardly required due to the IA being too good against heavy armor to begin with (the VERY FIRST problem in tau I said), and the fusion being better suited elsewhere. had a riptide been able to take none at all for being 20 points cheaper (the cost of a TLFB/TLPR for crisis suits), everyone would do that.

So your argument is that "it's garbage so why switch it out"...but then argue that it isn't needed because its "weapon ranges don't match the main guns"?

Boo friggin' hoo. That's the point of it being a SECONDARY WEAPON SYSTEM.
It's no different than sponsons on Guard tanks being able to take Plasma Cannons, Heavy Flamers, Multi-Meltas, or Heavy Bolters. They're not meant to be as good as the main gun(although in some cases they are just as good if not better than the main guns on a tank that is almost as many bloody points as your stupid Riptide with a joke survivability despite being rolling slabs of armor versus some schmuck in a tin can), they're there to be additional firepower.

In tanks, you can get either SMS, burst cannon or 2 drones for the same price. sooo...everything else is even worse than the SMS and with irrelevant range as far as a tank cares. having the SMs cost even more would be silly considering the tanks are pretty lousy even with it. has they cost 10 points less with 10 points to turn drone/burst to SMS, most would stick to drone/burst.
Devilfish pays 10 to switch it's drones to an SMS. but, it already got a burst cannon, so having another gun hardly even helps as it will now snap shoot the burst cannon. not much of an upgrade.

Welcome to being a vehicle?

Fire warriors can get an SMS turret upgrade, that requires not moving to set up, and if you do more later on, the turret is destroyed,

And then when you stay still it comes back.

Read your rules. ONLY army in the game with recycling heavy weapons in a squad. That 15 points lasts you as long as the squad does.

also FW dies to a stern look, so erasing the squad and removing the gun isn't hard. few people take FW to begin with, fewer still upgrade them to have turrets.

Stop leaving your FW in the open and they don't die as easy. Not every army has on demand Ignores Cover, bud.

Also, drones upgrading to marker FOR FREE?
HOLY HELL. its like every other equal weapon switch out there!
So freaking WHAT if the marker itself is "free", the drone isn't. a drone with markers don't have guns, a drone with a shield don't have markers or guns. its a freaking choice. you already paid for it when you bought the unit. same as scouts change for FREE between bolter, pistol+sword or shotgun. the price is in the scout.

Did you really just compare Markerlights and Shield Generators for the unit to shotguns, bolters, or pistols+CCWs?

As inflammatory as the language is Kanluwen sums up the frustration that some factions feel in the fact that they are utterly invalidated... for instance Harlequins, Orks, Nids and Dark Eldar suffer critical existence failures just from bumping into some of these Tau combinations and that attributes to their bad reputation...

There a reason why Eldar is considered more OP and yet Tau are more loathed...

Harlequins got invuls everywhere, ignoring cover isn't thier problem.
Orks, nids and dark eldar are rendered irrelevant by freaking chaos, and chaos are irrelevant by space marines. Those three wouldn't be any more relevant if tau didn't exist.

If putting FW in cover made them somehow survivable despite T3 and lousy leadership, we would see scions being seriously played. Even in cover the FW die quickly to anything, even bolters are a serius threat.

And you are making a deal even out of shield drones? These are spare wounds . nothing more. They don't buff the unit, don't provide blanket protection, just have themselves a 4+ invul and no weapons what so ever.

The secondary gun point you made, can you direct me to people who plays competitively and take sponsor weapons if they can choose not to? My point was NOT "it's garbage so why switch out", it was "it's hardly relevant but the alternative is even less so, when I even have one. "

Honestly, most your complaints sounds as if you never actually played against tau, because if you had you would know just how insignificant most of these things are in an actual game.

As for Raven Guard stopping tau overwatch? It exists. Called pinning the LD7 dudes, or making them fall back (8 with sarge)-the first company strike force can drop it by 2 more. Going other army spesific the Dark Angels also has a formation thar forbids overwatch. Chaos got drige casters (not that chaos is otherwise functional), quinns got death jester shenanigans and DE can drop ld like crazy (again, both of these are not functional to begin with, just dishing random examples) and I'm sure there are a few tricks I don't know.
Or, if you want to take the powergame way do it with the skyhammer for 4 guaranteed units shut down. And it's only one of the most cheesy formations in existence. As cheesy as riptide wing.

They're really gakky invuls, so weight of fire, which we know Tau does VERY well, will chew through them if they aren't in cover using their cover increasing abilities.

What if the orks had "ignore markerlights" because their skin was so dirty the dot doesn't register? It would make my life happier against Tau.

 Quickjager wrote:
They're really gakky invuls, so weight of fire, which we know Tau does VERY well, will chew through them if they aren't in cover using their cover increasing abilities.

That's hardly unique to tau and part of the reason I said ignoring cover isn't thier problem.

Yea, Harlies have a bunch of problems. All of which are seen when they fight a Tau army specifically. Ignore Cover is a goddamn rare rule that usually requires delving into psychic powers to get.

The only other armies I think that could ruin them as fast and as badly are Necrons and maybe Space Marines if they did not go Grav.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Harlequins got invuls everywhere, ignoring cover isn't thier problem.
Orks, nids and dark eldar are rendered irrelevant by freaking chaos, and chaos are irrelevant by space marines. Those three wouldn't be any more relevant if tau didn't exist.

Harlies and a plethora of other factions require speed/ LOS blocking terrain or boosted cover saves, Tau ignore all 3

In any case the point of this post was to discuss how Tau could be made more fun to play against rather than if they are OP and as such out of sequence shooting with the best shooting army in the game combined with almost every USR related to shooting isn't fun...as does anything that just promotes sitting back in a gunline.

So without rewriting the rules, I'd suggest having fast breacher units in Devilfish in an urban terrain setup or multiple deepstriking battle suits or even more Riptides over Stormsurges to promote movement, Tau armoured columns or massed infiltrators over markerlight spam. Hell even Kroot or Vespid auxiliary wings would be fun and Tau flyers could even make an appearance once in a while...


It's not about making Tau weaker or taking tamer lists, its about making lists that are more interactive rather than shooting galleries... that's what I want

More riptides are not the way to make it fun. Even the stormsurge is more fun than riptides to face, and least you can reach him without hat tricks. And the shotgun stormsurge actually comes to you.

In order to make interactive armies, keep large suits to minimum. Focus the smaller suits. Having many different crisis squads is cool, especially rare types like plasma (who are not taken because riptides) or the flamer suits.

Auxiliaries are also fun. The kroot and vespid formation is hilarious. Pirhana are cool as long you don't abuse firestorm.
Breachers are fun. So are carbine strikers in fishes.
OSC is freaking annoying at times, but its a knife's edge formation, so it's OK.


Many tau formations are amusing and promote aggressive or odd plays, experiment with the less commonly seen ones.

 BoomWolf wrote:
More riptides are not the way to make it fun. Even the stormsurge is more fun than riptides to face, and least you can reach him without hat tricks. And the shotgun stormsurge actually comes to you.

In order to make interactive armies, keep large suits to minimum. Focus the smaller suits. Having many different crisis squads is cool, especially rare types like plasma (who are not taken because riptides) or the flamer suits.

Auxiliaries are also fun. The kroot and vespid formation is hilarious. Pirhana are cool as long you don't abuse firestorm.
Breachers are fun. So are carbine strikers in fishes.
OSC is freaking annoying at times, but its a knife's edge formation, so it's OK.


Many tau formations are amusing and promote aggressive or odd plays, experiment with the less commonly seen ones.

I agree, I'd still say having a couple centerpiece models like riptides are perfectly fine to use against some of the tougher opponents out there as long as they don't latch onto the EWO + Ion Accelerator combo too much (I have Tau friends who fell in love with the big Mech idea and I'm guessing there are others who fell for that aesthetic , so I'd still say use them but perhaps with more uncommon subsystems or FW variants for example)

I have one riptide and one ghostkneel.
It's enough to activate the relevant formations (retaliation and OSC respectively), get some work done and don't cause annoyance as its just a small part of my army.

I'm not saying "don't take any riptides just, don't spam them. Everything is annoying when spammed, and riptides are a bit annoying to begin with.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I have one riptide and one ghostkneel.
It's enough to activate the relevant formations (retaliation and OSC respectively), get some work done and don't cause annoyance as its just a small part of my army.

I'm not saying "don't take any riptides just, don't spam them. Everything is annoying when spammed, and riptides are a bit annoying to begin with.

To be fair, if they are all painted up and modeled as Heltides I wouldn't mind you spamming them

Ghostkeel is the one MC in the Tau lineup I think looks cool and base-wise is balanced well.

As to address EWO... it is 5 points to literally have the chance to murder an opponent before that unit gets to do anything. It is a out of order shooting attack that pays for itself. 5 points is a no-brainer.

(I am also biased against it because guess what GK armies do and guess what MC has a blast that feths my gak up)

Ghostkeels can get pretty potent when in groups and also formations. They don't work on a linear power, but an exponential power level. One is meh. Two is okay and could replace HYMP Broadsides in a casual list. Adding those two into formations makes them great and finally some lists that go Ghostkeel heavy with 3 can be extremely potent with a Ghostkeel Wing. It's a very undervalued unit because its stats are deceptive.

Though most lists will likely just focus on two since they aren't that cheap.

Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:

Cover is a thing. And it's not like there aren't cover modifiers in some Tau formations, amirite?

And hell--it's not like Tau didn't just get their own unique set of fortifications that can cause vehicles to glance themselves to death with weapons that would otherwise never be able to glance, right?

A 4+ cover save in ruins is still a 4+ with a LD7 unit. Still very vulnerable and easy to force morale, which was my point. I have never seen the Tau fortification used in a game ever. Nor can you take it in any of the new formations or contingents, and if a fire warrior squad is sitting on my wall, and that is the most scary thing on the table at that time, then I think you already won the game.

Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:

I understood your point. However I also have argued this point with you several instances, and most of the time your reply is "Well it's S5 AP5".

Who gives a crap if it's S5 AP5? It's S5 AP5 Heavy 4 Ignores Cover Homing. You continually act as though the lack of AP and the BS needed to hit with Tau units is a hindrance while ignoring the fact that it is an exclusively twin-linked system with a relatively high ROF, a large range, and almost exclusively(barring Tau vehicles and the new Support Drone) on platforms with easy access to Interceptor.

That's why I keep trying to press home that SMS are a HUGE advantage, with or without Markerlights.

A single SMS is going to :
- kill 0.67 marines on average. That won't even be enough to force morale.
- cause 0.5 glances on a rhino. Anything tougher it can't effect.
- cause 1 glance on any AV10 vehicle, to get a pen your essentially getting lucky. Now, this is good against many targets across multiple armies. Some of those armies can also have invuls on their vehicles to mitigate, (looking at you DE, Harliquins).
- kill 2 Orks or any other T4 5+ or worse save model. But i dont think that is crushing the ork horde.
- kill 2.5 Guardsman, probably the most effective unit to shoot at, any T3 5+ or worse save unit.

Point being, the ignoring LOS is a tool that we are capable of using. What others are saying is that if we choose to use that tool, then we are effectively not using are other weapons on that shooting phase. I think this is where you are trying to counter point? where we can fire our normal weapon in overwatch and then shoot the SMS at anything we want.. or vice versa. And this is true, but because it is s5 ap5.. its not a game changer.. its annoying sure, but far from the most devastating of the Tau arsenal. And that is in essence my argument in any SMS debate, sure it ignores cover, sure its twin linked, and sure it ignores LOS... end of the day its s5 ap5 and its only ok in the current meta.

As stated earlier, easily our best counter to warp spiders because of the range and them being t3. We want them to flicker jump as much as possible.

Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:

grizzyzz wrote:
I am not sure exactly your point here? Also there is no free upgrade. A drone squad can be an combination of marker, gun, or shield drones @14pts per drone. Within a unit that has the option to purchase (not all can), these are taken at 12pts per model.

Unless you and I have different Tau Empire codices, that is not the case. Page 101 of the 2012 Tau Empire codex specifically states that a Drone Squadron may upgrade any Gun Drone to Marker Drone or Shield Drone for free.

Same codex to which end, I stated that you need to purchase the drone. Why does it matter that you can choose which drone you want? the drone itself is still 14pts.

Kanluwen wrote:The purchased Drones for Fire Caste stuff are 12 points. Those costs do NOT apply to the Drone Squadrons.

We realize that, and I thought i was pretty clear; only chose to include it because as i stated "not exactly sure your point", for bringing it up, as you mentioned "upgrade" and wanted to make sure everything was covered.


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Kanluwen wrote:

You mentioned you play Ravenguard, which I can understand your frustration with SMS. SMS most effective targets are Ravenguards essential playstyle.

It negates your turn 1 shrouding, and all your AV10 skimmers jinking. Its good against scouts, because they only have 4+ and are usually low model count and require their cloaks, cover to stick around.

I can even understand overwatch/interceptor being very frustrating because most likely there is 1 beefy melee threat that your trying to get into combat, and that just won't work out.

Skyhammer works very nicely paired with ravenguard because you can start denying overwatch and add additional turn 1 assaults to lock up targets. It really isn't about beating Tau in combat (which inevitably will happen), its about locking them their so they can't fire in their turn.

Otherwise some other things you can do would be to saturate the field with many melee threats, fight on two fronts; Meaning, have that nasty unit right in our face, but have another one running up the board.. now we need to choose one to deal with and the other is there next turn.

Anyway just wanted to give some advice and move away from this back and forth we are having.

Why is SMS even being discussed? It's a nice weapon - but it's not breaking the game. Supporting fire kind of is. Ignoring cover with long ranged ap2 pie plates on indestructible and mobile platforms is. Interceptor on ap2 pie plates is too.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why is SMS even being discussed? It's a nice weapon - but it's not breaking the game. Supporting fire kind of is. Ignoring cover with long ranged ap2 pie plates on indestructible and mobile platforms is. Interceptor on ap2 pie plates is too.

This.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why is SMS even being discussed? It's a nice weapon - but it's not breaking the game. Supporting fire kind of is. Ignoring cover with long ranged ap2 pie plates on indestructible and mobile platforms is. Interceptor on ap2 pie plates is too.

I brought it up off the cuff as its a nice counter to the recent use of Warp Spider spam, and it absolutely murders harlequins or DE or anything else thats fragile that relys on LOS/cover, in any case thats not what makes them OP.

In fact whether it's OP or not has nothing to do with the thread, its how to make them fun to play with/against and I'd argue that isn't dependent on how 'OP' a faction is and works under the assumption that a reasonable player of the top 4 codexes tones their list down against the weaker ones...

Toning down on interceptor and markerlights whilst promoting movement is a step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.

 Torus wrote:
Toning down on interceptor and markerlights whilst promoting movement is a step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.

Screw that.
If you want your Tau opponent to waste points on their list when they take EWOs, don't null deploy. Don't deepstrike or use reserves shenanigans. Deploy on the table. Doing so often enough will encourage your Tau opponent to leave EWOs at home.

As for markerlights? target them first. they are the simplest force multipliers that Tau players have. Don't like them? fine . . kill them first.

I try not to field anything with SMS when playing DE. They kinda make a 30" bubble of NOPE! for reavers.

However, they're middling to good versus most other armies.

 carldooley wrote:

 Torus wrote:
Toning down on interceptor and markerlights whilst promoting movement is a step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.

Screw that.
If you want your Tau opponent to waste points on their list when they take EWOs, don't null deploy. Don't deepstrike or use reserves shenanigans. Deploy on the table. Doing so often enough will encourage your Tau opponent to leave EWOs at home.

As for markerlights? target them first. they are the simplest force multipliers that Tau players have. Don't like them? fine . . kill them first.

So your proposal is to footslog and get shot to death instead of deep striking and getting shot to death.

Or bring transports?
Or actually fast units?
Or, le gasp, your own guns?

Great options with terminators there. But what do you care? You don't have to deal with a subpar codex. I guess I'll spam more Dreadknights so I can actually be fast AND have guns that are worth a damn.

By the way that attitude is why it isn't fun to play against Tau.

Again, this isn't asking advice for how to kill Tau either but how to make them more FUN TO PLAY WITH AND AGAINST. Theres a reason why this is in general topics rather than tactics

 Torus wrote:
Again, this isn't asking advice for how to kill Tau either but how to make them more FUN TO PLAY WITH AND AGAINST. There's a reason why this is in general topics rather than tactics

Sorry, but the general feel to this thread is that the only real way to have fun against tau is if the tau player shoots themselves in the foot, then hands the loaded gun to their opponent. I used to bring preprinted lists to such games, but with the amount of bullgak here (it is as though people don't WANT to talk things out with their opponents before games then throw a fit when their opponent brings something that they don't want to face), it seems as though we should be handing a ball peen hammer to our opponents as well.

The only real suggestion that I have for the OP, and people like yourself is to break the meta. Play FSE, find the tau equivilent to Lictor Shame, and play the hell out of it.