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 Kanluwen wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
It would also help to increase the number of LOS blocking terrain.

There are some people here literal whining about the range of Tau weapons... Why dont bring some more terrain. So that it actualy matters where a unit is on the table?

That same applies to Tau whining about the lack of durability on their Markerlight toting units(Pathfinders and Marker Drones).

The only difference is that in order for players to root out those Markerlight units, they need to specifically gear themselves up for it. The common thing Tau players throw at others who complain that it isn't exactly easy to root out Pathfinders in cover is "drop pod flamers".

Yeah, that's brilliant. Too bad you can drop on the other side of a building and still get SMS'd.

How about you just shoot at them with anything at all? They're toughness three with a 5+ armor save and leadership 7. Just shoot at them with anything and they'll drop like flies. Pathfinders are really not that great. The real problem are drones, and even then those still can drop easy like.

Imperium guns are that inefficient. That's why.

Martel732 wrote:
Imperium guns are that inefficient. That's why.

Thats why you have all the doctrines and chapter tactics tho. Help bring you up to snuff.


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Martel732 wrote:
Imperium guns are that inefficient. That's why.

I realize this is gonna push your buttons.. but I am gonna say it anyway Heavy bolters man.. they crush Tau infantry. My friends run landspeeders all the time with heavy bolters and they just jump around mowing down my pathfinders. They can stay out of markerlight range.. move 12" into their 36" range.. and then wipe out my squads.

Martel i see. Imperial Guys are that inefficient that it doesn't matter if they shoot or not. also in adittion they are unable to move at all have no save at all and will never reach close combat. And when they reach Close Combat they won'T hit. What a shame. i think imperial guys should never ever try to play any game. they cannot do anything. in fact it doesnt matter if they face Tau, Nids or even a dump stone.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Imperium guns are that inefficient. That's why.

Thats why you have all the doctrines and chapter tactics tho. Help bring you up to snuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Imperium guns are that inefficient. That's why.

I realize this is gonna push your buttons.. but I am gonna say it anyway Heavy bolters man.. they crush Tau infantry. My friends run landspeeders all the time with heavy bolters and they just jump around mowing down my pathfinders. They can stay out of markerlight range.. move 12" into their 36" range.. and then wipe out my squads.

That's list tailoring, though. Heavy bolters can't be used against the field at large because they are so terrible.

You act like chapter tactics and such really matter. What matters is getting invis and ignore cover on a unit of grav cents. That's what matters.


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 _ghost_ wrote:
Martel i see. Imperial Guys are that inefficient that it doesn't matter if they shoot or not. also in adittion they are unable to move at all have no save at all and will never reach close combat. And when they reach Close Combat they won'T hit. What a shame. i think imperial guys should never ever try to play any game. they cannot do anything. in fact it doesnt matter if they face Tau, Nids or even a dump stone.

Compared to Eldar and Tau, it doesn't matter if they shoot or not. That's true.

Martel732 wrote:

That's list tailoring, though. Heavy bolters can't be used against the field at large because they are so terrible.

No list tailoring, they use them all the time double heavy bolters in squads of 3 pumps out 18 s5 ap4 shots at an effective range of 48". They do work against about every foot soldier in the game.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

That's list tailoring, though. Heavy bolters can't be used against the field at large because they are so terrible.

No list tailoring, they use them all the time double heavy bolters in squads of 3 pumps out 18 s5 ap4 shots at an effective range of 48". They do work against about every foot soldier in the game.

Except they don't. Do the math. Heavy bolters are god awful garbage.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
It would also help to increase the number of LOS blocking terrain.

There are some people here literal whining about the range of Tau weapons... Why dont bring some more terrain. So that it actualy matters where a unit is on the table?

That same applies to Tau whining about the lack of durability on their Markerlight toting units(Pathfinders and Marker Drones).

The only difference is that in order for players to root out those Markerlight units, they need to specifically gear themselves up for it. The common thing Tau players throw at others who complain that it isn't exactly easy to root out Pathfinders in cover is "drop pod flamers".

Yeah, that's brilliant. Too bad you can drop on the other side of a building and still get SMS'd.

How about you just shoot at them with anything at all? They're toughness three with a 5+ armor save and leadership 7. Just shoot at them with anything and they'll drop like flies. Pathfinders are really not that great. The real problem are drones, and even then those still can drop easy like.

Sure, let me light them up with my sniper rifles(the closest thing I have in the 36" range bracket that Pathfinders bring for their Markerlights in my Raven Guard).

What's that? Sniper Rifles are on T4 4+ models? Huh. Gee I wonder what the Tau can throw at that, and give the weapons Ignore Cover to negate my Cover bonuses?

I'm really kinda tired of Tau players pretending that Pathfinders are awful. Are they killing things? No. But that's not their job, nor has it ever been their job. Their job has always been to provide Markerlights. Those Markerlights are what the Tau use to kill things. And compared to what other armies get for a similar points outlay to Pathfinders?
4 models providing Markerlights for 44 points in a Pathfinder squad versus 65 points for a L1 Librarian in Codex: Space Marines(another 25 points to become L2) or 30 points for a Platoon Commander and his lackeys in a Guard Infantry Platoon(giving you access to 5/9 Orders, only two of which are worthwhile: First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire granting a second Lasgun shot and Smite at Will granting Split Fire) or 60 points for a Company Commander and his lackeys in a Company Command Squad, giving you access to all 9 Orders at the cost of an HQ slot.

Martel732 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

That's list tailoring, though. Heavy bolters can't be used against the field at large because they are so terrible.

No list tailoring, they use them all the time double heavy bolters in squads of 3 pumps out 18 s5 ap4 shots at an effective range of 48". They do work against about every foot soldier in the game.

Except they don't. Do the math. Heavy bolters are god awful garbage.

lol, I am not bringing this up for another debate here. No its not s6. But does it work against the majority of armies troops yes. Especially 4+ troops.

I still maintain it's a list tailoring choice, if no other reason than the number of meq lists. That's on top of Tau lists that spam Riptides and Eldar lists that have no 4+ saves in them at all. It's not even that good vs Necrons, because warriors are still getting a 4+ RP on top of cover.

Martel732 wrote:
I still maintain it's a list tailoring choice, if no other reason than the number of meq lists.

That's fine, opinions are allowed on the interwebs

I don't know if you are trying to trick people or not, but trying to shoot Tau seems to be playing right into their hands.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know if you are trying to trick people or not, but trying to shoot Tau seems to be playing right into their hands.

All i am doing is giving options.. the imperium has answers for Tau you just can't go all in on 1 you need to balance your list out. Tau is a top tier codex. and so is Space marine, heck space marines placed higher then Tau at LVO. (I realize it was only 1 tournament, but no one can say space marines are not good)


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For example running some dakka speeders in the background while you have an entire army in Tau's face ... leaves the speeders free to grab objectives and be a nuisance because Tau then need to handle what is at the front door.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know if you are trying to trick people or not, but trying to shoot Tau seems to be playing right into their hands.

All i am doing is giving options.. the imperium has answers for Tau you just can't go all in on 1 you need to balance your list out. Tau is a top tier codex. and so is Space marine, heck space marines placed higher then Tau at LVO. (I realize it was only 1 tournament, but no one can say space marines are not good)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For example running some dakka speeders in the background while you have an entire army in Tau's face ... leaves the speeders free to grab objectives and be a nuisance because Tau then need to handle what is at the front door.

Obviously since I don't know my opponents ahead of time, I have balance my lists out. I just can't justify spending fast attack slots on heavy bolters. I've basically quit using BA heavy support units in general as well. This is to minimize the amount of points I'm spending on units that don't do anything at all.

Martel732 wrote:

Obviously since I don't know my opponents ahead of time, I have balance my lists out. I just can't justify spending fast attack slots on heavy bolters. I've basically quit using BA heavy support units in general as well. This is to minimize the amount of points I'm spending on units that don't do anything at all.

No justification needed. In the ravenguard decurian i believe you are required to bring a landspeeder squad. 45 points for one with 2 heavy bolters is not a bad unit at all.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Obviously since I don't know my opponents ahead of time, I have balance my lists out. I just can't justify spending fast attack slots on heavy bolters. I've basically quit using BA heavy support units in general as well. This is to minimize the amount of points I'm spending on units that don't do anything at all.

No justification needed. In the ravenguard decurian i believe you are required to bring a landspeeder squad. 45 points for one with 2 heavy bolters is not a bad unit at all.

Something that's good for just DA is not a very general solution. Although I personally would never pay 45 pts for just two heavy bolters, so I'd say that it is indeed a bad unit. I could have two scatterbikes instead with Eldar. More shots, more strength, more durability.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know if you are trying to trick people or not, but trying to shoot Tau seems to be playing right into their hands.

target prioritization, it can be done depending on the list. I like running a very mobile tau list, core is 4 devilfish with 10 pathfinders each, a stealth cadre, a few pathfinder teams and a retaliation cadre (mostly all these are min squads, 3 melta/plasma EWO suits, a missile broadside, and a ripide solo ) makes for a fun mobile army but I can be outgunned. I realize this does not represent all tau lists, but not everybody playing tau runs a stationary gunline

The Devilfish got wrecked by the 6/7th ed rules, which sucks because I love the model.

Martel732 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Obviously since I don't know my opponents ahead of time, I have balance my lists out. I just can't justify spending fast attack slots on heavy bolters. I've basically quit using BA heavy support units in general as well. This is to minimize the amount of points I'm spending on units that don't do anything at all.

No justification needed. In the ravenguard decurian i believe you are required to bring a landspeeder squad. 45 points for one with 2 heavy bolters is not a bad unit at all.

Something that's good for just DA is not a very general solution. Although I personally would never pay 45 pts for just two heavy bolters, so I'd say that it is indeed a bad unit. I could have two scatterbikes instead with Eldar. More shots, more strength, more durability.

Except your not eldar, you don't have scatbikes.. if marines did they would use them. Maybe give some unorthodox units a try to see what surprises you.. obviously what you normally do is not panning out from what you have mentioned across multiple threads.

Like heavy bolter land speeders are going to magically make things better? Okay.

The reality is that the biggest flaw to the BA is the lack of units NOT based off meq stats, imo. No MCs, no pseudo MCs like TWC, no Centurions, etc.

We don't have any unorthodox units. They are all marine stat lines with a couple special rules that don't help enough. BA are in a mathematical hole that the regular marines aren't. But the regular marines get out of that hole my using units OTHER than marines. Except, of course, for Gladius.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Obviously since I don't know my opponents ahead of time, I have balance my lists out. I just can't justify spending fast attack slots on heavy bolters. I've basically quit using BA heavy support units in general as well. This is to minimize the amount of points I'm spending on units that don't do anything at all.

No justification needed. In the ravenguard decurian i believe you are required to bring a landspeeder squad. 45 points for one with 2 heavy bolters is not a bad unit at all.

Raven Guard have no requirement to take Land Speeders--and even if they did they have no benefits, excepting the one Land Speeder in Shadow Force Solaq.
They have three formations unique to them requiring Land Speeders, but none of those formations are mandatory.

Martel732 wrote:
Like heavy bolter land speeders are going to magically make things better? Okay.

The reality is that the biggest flaw to the BA is the lack of units NOT based off meq stats, imo. No MCs, no pseudo MCs like TWC, no Centurions, etc.

We don't have any unorthodox units. They are all marine stat lines with a couple special rules that don't help enough. BA are in a mathematical hole that the regular marines aren't. But the regular marines get out of that hole my using units OTHER than marines. Except, of course, for Gladius.

Right and as I said in another post, your BA are battle brothers.. you can ally other chapters.. but I know you don't want to do this... And given that.. then your stuck where you are.. sad with no answers to anything with a bad codex.

Personally I see BA similar to DE and Harlequins and others.. an army that "can be stand alone" but is really meant to be an allied force for some other "core" army.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Like heavy bolter land speeders are going to magically make things better? Okay.

The reality is that the biggest flaw to the BA is the lack of units NOT based off meq stats, imo. No MCs, no pseudo MCs like TWC, no Centurions, etc.

We don't have any unorthodox units. They are all marine stat lines with a couple special rules that don't help enough. BA are in a mathematical hole that the regular marines aren't. But the regular marines get out of that hole my using units OTHER than marines. Except, of course, for Gladius.

Right and as I said in another post, your BA are battle brothers.. you can ally other chapters.. but I know you don't want to do this... And given that.. then your stuck where you are.. sad with no answers to anything with a bad codex.

Personally I see BA similar to DE and Harlequins and others.. an army that "can be stand alone" but is really meant to be an allied force for some other "core" army.

Except that's not the case. BA are in the situation they're in now because they are a Space Marine Codex that has received none of the real revamp that the other books have. Dark Angels used to be in the same position, being a kind of developer testbed for the main Space Marine book.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Like heavy bolter land speeders are going to magically make things better? Okay.

The reality is that the biggest flaw to the BA is the lack of units NOT based off meq stats, imo. No MCs, no pseudo MCs like TWC, no Centurions, etc.

We don't have any unorthodox units. They are all marine stat lines with a couple special rules that don't help enough. BA are in a mathematical hole that the regular marines aren't. But the regular marines get out of that hole my using units OTHER than marines. Except, of course, for Gladius.

Right and as I said in another post, your BA are battle brothers.. you can ally other chapters.. but I know you don't want to do this... And given that.. then your stuck where you are.. sad with no answers to anything with a bad codex.

Personally I see BA similar to DE and Harlequins and others.. an army that "can be stand alone" but is really meant to be an allied force for some other "core" army.

OK, I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Harlies MAYBE, and something like Mechanicum sure, but DE and BA? The idea that two ENTIRELY STANDALONE FACTIONS with books that are about as large as some of the mid-tier codexes can only work with allies is stupid, and a great indication that the game's current state is bonkers broken.

Except that the BA have no units that aren't rendered pointless by the vanilla codex. So why bother with allies? Toss the BA in the trash and get vanilla marines.

Everyone can ally everyone in this game anyway. Battle brothers is actually largely irrelevant.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Raven Guard have no requirement to take Land Speeders--and even if they did they have no benefits, excepting the one Land Speeder in Shadow Force Solaq.
They have three formations unique to them requiring Land Speeders, but none of those formations are mandatory.

Fair enough, maybe try running a couple of those auxiliary options? Landspeeders are a neat platform. Flexible offensive options and being a fast skimmer is great!


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Martel732 wrote:
Except that the BA have no units that aren't rendered pointless by the vanilla codex. So why bother with allies? Toss the BA in the trash and get vanilla marines.

Everyone can ally everyone in this game anyway. Battle brothers is actually largely irrelevant.

Then don't play BA lol. Battle brothers is one reason why space marines are good. Without it, they wouldn't be able to share psychic buffs and other army wide benefits. Remember Taudar?

Except for psychic buffs, ICs and transports ofc. But, Sanqumancy is basically weirder Biomancy, though I COULD see it being good with a SmashFether Deathstar and have considered bringing some BA allies for my Iron Hands for that and a Sanguinary Priest for an easy-to-insert FNP. Wouldn;t do it outside of a tourney though, because it's rediculous to think that BA are reduced to an IC or two and a Drop-pod Taxi Service for Mechanicum. Seriously, it wouldn't even take that much to make BA mid-tier. But right now? their one of the worst codexes, and that is bloody stupid.

EDIT:

Then don't play BA lol

So, what your saying is, that he should give up the army he has been playing for years, simply because he wants to be competitive? Again, the fact that he should even have to CONSIDER giving up to have a chance in a competitive environment is utter fething bullhockey.

I don't think battle brothers contributes at all to space marines being good. They have no synergy as effective as Taudar. It's all about formations and such.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think battle brothers contributes at all to space marines being good. They have no synergy as effective as Taudar.

Unless your either thunder Dome or CavalryStar

 Swampmist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think battle brothers contributes at all to space marines being good. They have no synergy as effective as Taudar.

Unless your either thunder Dome or CavalryStar

Or right, the Space Wolves do abuse this quite a bit. Between TWC and Wulfen, I count them more like a daemon army than a marine army.