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I'm not sure why anyone is suggesting HBs. What would you take them on, Tac squads? You have to pay for 4 dead weight models when you take it. A Land speeder? The thing the SMS are really good against and the Tau army can take in a decent number?

A HB does, assuming a fire warrior, 2/3*5/6*2/3= 20/54 per shot. So a HB will kill just over 1 FW a turn, hardly destroying them. Especially when considering the over priced delivery options...if every model in a tac squad could take a HB they would be worth it against infantry...and only infantry. The weapon being heavy doesn't help.

Against a crisis suit, its even worse. 2/3*2/3*1/3= 4/27. 2 Hbs will cause a bit more than a wound against a crisis suit. If you look at the riptide or something else, it gets even worse.

I play Tau and play against tau. The fire warriors are not what I'm afraid of or using to kill stuff. Suits do the major lifting, with drones or finders using marker lights for support. HB aren't really good here, grav is. And that's why you see grav spammed, not the other imperial weapons.

Akiasura wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone is suggesting HBs. What would you take them on, Tac squads? You have to pay for 4 dead weight models when you take it. A Land speeder? The thing the SMS are really good against and the Tau army can take in a decent number?

A HB does, assuming a fire warrior, 2/3*5/6*2/3= 20/54 per shot. So a HB will kill just over 1 FW a turn, hardly destroying them. Especially when considering the over priced delivery options...if every model in a tac squad could take a HB they would be worth it against infantry...and only infantry. The weapon being heavy doesn't help.

Against a crisis suit, its even worse. 2/3*2/3*1/3= 4/27. 2 Hbs will cause a bit more than a wound against a crisis suit. If you look at the riptide or something else, it gets even worse.

I play Tau and play against tau. The fire warriors are not what I'm afraid of or using to kill stuff. Suits do the major lifting, with drones or finders using marker lights for support. HB aren't really good here, grav is. And that's why you see grav spammed, not the other imperial weapons.

Because they aren't doing math.

Martel732 wrote:
I say nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Why would anyone bother to try to fight Tau, Eldar, or Daemons if you can WMD them to death?

Isn't that one of the biggest issues with 40k in general, though? Ground combat seems almost entirely pointless 99% of the time. You wouldn't really want to fight anyone on the ground since you can just bomb everything from orbit.

Ground combat in 40k is mostly only a thing because 1.) 40k was literally conceived as "Warhammer Fantasy in SPAAACE!", and 2.) because HONOR and GLORY, lol.

 raverrn wrote:
Just gonna leave this here.

Spoiler:

Look at all the Eldar...and various flavors of Space Marine.

And then there's the one Necron guy, bless his heart!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yes, it is worthless when the army it's supposed to be countering doesn't give a crap.

Between weapons that ignore LOS(Seeker Missiles fired via the "Seeker" Markerlight upgrade and SMS) and much of the hardest hitting stuff being on absurdly mobile stuff to begin with(Suits with JSJ), LOS blocking terrain isn't the bane of Tau it used to be.

It does kinda help shut down gunlines, though, which is what people seem to complain about the most. Suits with JSJ are at least moving around, not staying in one place.

That's supposedly why people don't bemoan Eldar as much as they do Tau, because the Eldar at least "engage" you. Scatbikes and warp spiders are stupid mobile, and everything else has to walk within range before it just vaporizes your army.

I don't know about you, but I hate Spiderspam+ScatbikeSpam eldar just as much, if not more, than tau! The thing is, that Eldar have other options that are atleast Tier 2 Viable, and those tend to be fun to play against. Footdar isn't super UP or OP, but I'll be damned if it isn't fun to play against!

Really, that's the problem with Tau as of right now; their DESIGNED to be a gunline with a few moving elements, and most of their options support that. Hell, they have the Tidewal (Or, as I like to call it, the Aegis Defence Rhino) so they can MOVE while being a gunline! Really, it's a matter of design flaw more-so than the thing being stupid overpowered, bar the biggest offenders (Looking at you StormSurge and Riptide) that buck this trend.

Oh what's that? No Tau in the top fething 10 again?

Wooooow it's not like I didn't call this one for the past.... how many months? Using this thing I like to call brainpower, logic, and data.

I will once again kindly ask the ITC to look at reducing the nerf to some of our units. It's ridiculous. Since everyone has been so kind and informative to me, debated with me with such a level head, and were completely unbiased I have to give you all some props. I realize Adeptacon doesn't use ITC. I just find it unlikely we'll see any Tau in the top 10 in any major tournaments this year. Particularly with ITC nerfs.

 Gamgee wrote:
Oh what's that? No Tau in the top fething 10 again?

Wooooow it's not like I didn't call this one for the past.... how many months? Using this thing I like to call brainpower, logic, and data.

I will once again kindly ask the ITC to look at reducing the nerf to some of our units. It's ridiculous. Since everyone has been so kind and informative to me, debated with me with such a level head, and were completely unbiased I have to give you all some props. I realize Adeptacon doesn't use ITC. I just find it unlikely we'll see any Tau in the top 10 in any major tournaments this year. Particularly with ITC nerfs.

Spoiler:

I would like to say. You all get a boot to the head.

Um... Adepticon doesn't nerf Tau, and more importantly doesn't nerf ANYONE ELSE. Yes, Tau are not as OP as the Top 4-or-5 Codexes, but with the ITC nerfs they VERY well could be, seeing as the nerfs to stuff that isn't theirs only effect them in the case of Ranged D, and even then barely so. Heck, their one of the only armies that can take multiple Lords of War in the ITC, which is NOT true of Adepticon. As it happens, mutliple Wraithknights and unerfed Invisibility are a good way to Feth over Tau

Akiasura wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone is suggesting HBs. What would you take them on, Tac squads? You have to pay for 4 dead weight models when you take it. A Land speeder? The thing the SMS are really good against and the Tau army can take in a decent number?

A HB does, assuming a fire warrior, 2/3*5/6*2/3= 20/54 per shot. So a HB will kill just over 1 FW a turn, hardly destroying them. Especially when considering the over priced delivery options...if every model in a tac squad could take a HB they would be worth it against infantry...and only infantry. The weapon being heavy doesn't help.

Against a crisis suit, its even worse. 2/3*2/3*1/3= 4/27. 2 Hbs will cause a bit more than a wound against a crisis suit. If you look at the riptide or something else, it gets even worse.

I play Tau and play against tau. The fire warriors are not what I'm afraid of or using to kill stuff. Suits do the major lifting, with drones or finders using marker lights for support. HB aren't really good here, grav is. And that's why you see grav spammed, not the other imperial weapons.

Well to be honest here .. a heavy bolter land speeder does outrange an sms by an effective 12".. so really that is not going to be a problem

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone is suggesting HBs. What would you take them on, Tac squads? You have to pay for 4 dead weight models when you take it. A Land speeder? The thing the SMS are really good against and the Tau army can take in a decent number?

A HB does, assuming a fire warrior, 2/3*5/6*2/3= 20/54 per shot. So a HB will kill just over 1 FW a turn, hardly destroying them. Especially when considering the over priced delivery options...if every model in a tac squad could take a HB they would be worth it against infantry...and only infantry. The weapon being heavy doesn't help.

Against a crisis suit, its even worse. 2/3*2/3*1/3= 4/27. 2 Hbs will cause a bit more than a wound against a crisis suit. If you look at the riptide or something else, it gets even worse.

I play Tau and play against tau. The fire warriors are not what I'm afraid of or using to kill stuff. Suits do the major lifting, with drones or finders using marker lights for support. HB aren't really good here, grav is. And that's why you see grav spammed, not the other imperial weapons.

Well to be honest here .. a heavy bolter land speeder does outrange an sms by an effective 12".. so really that is not going to be a problem

Smart Missile Systems are 30" range.
Heavy Bolters are 36" range.

There's a 6" difference.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone is suggesting HBs. What would you take them on, Tac squads? You have to pay for 4 dead weight models when you take it. A Land speeder? The thing the SMS are really good against and the Tau army can take in a decent number?

A HB does, assuming a fire warrior, 2/3*5/6*2/3= 20/54 per shot. So a HB will kill just over 1 FW a turn, hardly destroying them. Especially when considering the over priced delivery options...if every model in a tac squad could take a HB they would be worth it against infantry...and only infantry. The weapon being heavy doesn't help.

Against a crisis suit, its even worse. 2/3*2/3*1/3= 4/27. 2 Hbs will cause a bit more than a wound against a crisis suit. If you look at the riptide or something else, it gets even worse.

I play Tau and play against tau. The fire warriors are not what I'm afraid of or using to kill stuff. Suits do the major lifting, with drones or finders using marker lights for support. HB aren't really good here, grav is. And that's why you see grav spammed, not the other imperial weapons.

Well to be honest here .. a heavy bolter land speeder does outrange an sms by an effective 12".. so really that is not going to be a problem

Smart Missile Systems are 30" range.
Heavy Bolters are 36" range.

There's a 6" difference.

Even factoring in movement, Landspeeders can't MSM, so they can't use their EFFECTIVELY larger range because they have to move forward to do so. Heck, anything with Relentless and SMS (which there are plenty of because one of the formations give broadsides Relentless IIRC) is the SAME effective range as a HB, because the HB can't back up after firing!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone is suggesting HBs. What would you take them on, Tac squads? You have to pay for 4 dead weight models when you take it. A Land speeder? The thing the SMS are really good against and the Tau army can take in a decent number?

A HB does, assuming a fire warrior, 2/3*5/6*2/3= 20/54 per shot. So a HB will kill just over 1 FW a turn, hardly destroying them. Especially when considering the over priced delivery options...if every model in a tac squad could take a HB they would be worth it against infantry...and only infantry. The weapon being heavy doesn't help.

Against a crisis suit, its even worse. 2/3*2/3*1/3= 4/27. 2 Hbs will cause a bit more than a wound against a crisis suit. If you look at the riptide or something else, it gets even worse.

I play Tau and play against tau. The fire warriors are not what I'm afraid of or using to kill stuff. Suits do the major lifting, with drones or finders using marker lights for support. HB aren't really good here, grav is. And that's why you see grav spammed, not the other imperial weapons.

Well to be honest here .. a heavy bolter land speeder does outrange an sms by an effective 12".. so really that is not going to be a problem

Smart Missile Systems are 30" range.
Heavy Bolters are 36" range.

There's a 6" difference.

I accounted for a landspeeder 12" move as well


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:

Even factoring in movement, Landspeeders can't MSM, so they can't use their EFFECTIVELY larger range because they have to move forward to do so. Heck, anything with Relentless and SMS (which there are plenty of because one of the formations give broadsides Relentless IIRC) is the SAME effective range as a HB, because the HB can't back up after firing!

Sucks I guess... Might as well just scrap Tau from the books.. am i right?

I mean.. its not fair BA have to walk away because they are bad.. so its definitely fair Tau have too. lol /mostly sarcasm.. but seriously we compare one point.. and its countered by another.. there is always something to counter something else in 40k...

 Kanluwen wrote:

Smart Missile Systems are 30" range.
Heavy Bolters are 36" range.

There's a 6" difference.

Yeah, but as it's been established in the bolter vs. pulse rifle "debate" that 6" extra range is HUGE. Game-changing. Broken, even.

 raverrn wrote:
Just gonna leave this here.

Let's see we got dark angels stealing a win and getting good results otherwise, eldar dominating the top 10 with 6 takes, vanilla marines outperforming tau by far.
In fact, tau has only 2 in the top 34. This is under chaos daemons. Heck KDK got as many entries, at nearly the same ranks, and people still cry that "assault is dead in 40k."

There is no way to spin it, not only tau are not overpowering, they are beaten by multiple armies who are claimed to be "just fine ", and nearly matched by "junk" armies.


Not that facts matter to tau haters.

Tau are only allowed to have one Stormsurge in Adepticon.

Also the attitude of most of the Tau apologists in this thread is another huge reason people hate Tau, including the OP. Love how his edit talks trash about "scrubs".

Don't like my attitude? Blame the Tau haters. You guys literally killed the fething hobby for me so you're damn right I'm a little bitter about this topic.

Lets go back a year and a half to when 40k changed again for the worse.

When the 7th Ed. GK codex released, people were like "Hey this is pretty externally balanced codex the other 7th ed ones are in line with it, there are a bunch of dud units that have no reason to be ever taken but can't say shenanigans anymore just need to avoid that one unit that even GK players don't really like, can't wait to see how the other codices will look like, it might even be a new age of balance for 40k!"

(Cue Necrons - Stage left)

"feth"

(Repeat said addendum for every codex released since)

Boomwolf if you honestly think Tau are nearly matched by "junk armies" like Orks, Dark Eldar, Chaos SM, IG (sorry) I cannot fathom how bad you must play tactically. Tau has the ability to stand on tabletop and slug it out with the strongest and WIN, on their own, with no other codex to support them. THAT IS INVALUABLE; for most armies you HAVE to take allies to reach that same potential (exception of the Top 3 of course).

You are doing nothing but dismissing (and insulting) players who enjoy their goddamn armies. WE LIKE OUR ARMIES BECAUSE WE LIKE THEM FOR WHATEVER REASON, we play these junk armies because we want to see more of them, to create a goddamn moment where we can say "Hey remember that one game where you krumped my DK for a tie on T7? Remember that FUN and close GAME we had?" Not the one where we see our goddamn models we painted so carefully get removed without doing anything.

You are doing nothing but saying you aren't number one, so no one can complain about you. Quit proving me right that most Tau players have gak attitudes and are nothing but WAAC/TFG.

I'm not sure I understand why tournament results are being posted in a thread about making Tau fun to play.

None of those lists in the top 20 would be fun to play against. The issue with Tau I had, is that no one really takes lists that aren't tournament worthy. I don't know whether that was a player issue or a codex issue.

Edit: Issue is even too strong of a word. I never had a problem playing against Tau.

 Quickjager wrote:
You are doing nothing but dismissing (and insulting) players who enjoy their goddamn armies. WE LIKE OUR ARMIES BECAUSE WE LIKE THEM FOR WHATEVER REASON, we play these junk armies because we want to see more of them, to create a goddamn moment where we can say "Hey remember that one game where you krumped my DK for a tie on T7? Remember that FUN and close GAME we had?" Not the one where we see our goddamn models we painted so carefully get removed without doing anything.

You are doing nothing but saying you aren't number one, so no one can complain about you. Quit proving me right that most Tau players have gak attitudes and are nothing but WAAC/TFG.

Yeah, and it's the same here; we like our army because we like the models or for whatever reason, and we want to play with our carefully-painted models, too. But what's happening here is that you guys are collectively saying that I'm not "allowed" to play the game with you because GW can't write rules worth a feth. We aren't the problem, but since you know GW isn't going to fix it and yelling at them is basically like yelling at a brick wall, you take out your frustration on the players instead, and basically bully them into submission.

It's so fething bad out in the wild that someone felt the need to come to Dakka and ask the community "How do I make my army 'fun'?", because they just want to play the game and people aren't letting them, and what happened? They got gak on. They got sarcastic remarks and troll comments on their thread, people telling them "You can't" or "Don't play", basically, which in turn causes one to get kind of bitter or irritated and start posting sarcastic replies back...which you guys then latch on to and say "See, now you're insulting us! This is why we don't like you! fething Tau players, man...", like blaming a dog for biting you when you kept pulling its tail.

As I said before, there's a reason I have my "attitude" and it has everything to do with how the 40k community has treated me since I was a wide-eyed newbie. And as for the WAAC/TFG comments I think a lot of you are just trying to find whatever reason you can to justify your hate (and in a lot of cases deliberately posting comments you know will rile people up just so you can point fingers and go "Look, look! TFGs, all of them!"), because it makes it easier when you don't think of me as a person anymore, but rather some kind of inhuman monster that feeds on pain and lamentation who wants to crush your very soul using a gakky tabletop game as their weapon of choice. In reality you're not gonna find very many Tau players out there that really WANT you to have a bad time...unless you find one like me who's just really fething salty about people treating them like dog gak for the better part of a decade. Even then, all I really want is to be able to put my models on the table without getting bitched at.

It's also worth noting that Tau aren't my only army, either, so it's in my best interest for those "junk armies" to get buffed up because I like them, too.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Don't like my attitude? Blame the Tau haters. You guys literally killed the fething hobby for me so you're damn right I'm a little bitter about this topic.

Me too truth be told. I'm pretty pissed off too. I just found out my FLGS uses ITC too so I have no options if I ever manage to get there.

Edit
Damn Sid that is some deep thoughts. I couldn't say it better myself except to hope some person out there somewhere actually realizes how they've been acting and treating people. I know I'm a bit of an donkey-cave myself but its because I care so much in the first place.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Smart Missile Systems are 30" range.
Heavy Bolters are 36" range.

There's a 6" difference.

Yeah, but as it's been established in the bolter vs. pulse rifle "debate" that 6" extra range is HUGE. Game-changing. Broken, even.

I'm just not sure how 6" is becoming 12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Don't like my attitude? Blame the Tau haters. You guys literally killed the fething hobby for me so you're damn right I'm a little bitter about this topic.

Me too truth be told. I'm pretty pissed off too. I just found out my FLGS uses ITC too so I have no options if I ever manage to get there.

So you're pissed off about a local shop using a set of rules that you don't like?

Don't play there then. And quite frankly, it's hilarious seeing you complain about ITC rules when you started up that whole "Operation Pitchfork" crap with Eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm not sure I understand why tournament results are being posted in a thread about making Tau fun to play.

None of those lists in the top 20 would be fun to play against. The issue with Tau I had, is that no one really takes lists that aren't tournament worthy. I don't know whether that was a player issue or a codex issue.

Edit: Issue is even too strong of a word. I never had a problem playing against Tau.

The reason why those tournament results are posted is because it's a "Hey, look! See? Tau can't be broken--they didn't even make the top 10!". It's a deflection tactic and a pretty common one.

Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that there's a hell of a lot more going into those lists than what is listed(DA is likely not DA but instead DA, SW, SM for example).

RayND wrote:
Tau are only allowed to have one Stormsurge in Adepticon.

Double WK is okay, but more than 1 SS is not? Makes sense!

Also the attitude of most of the Tau apologists in this thread is another huge reason people hate Tau, including the OP. Love how his edit talks trash about "scrubs".

I used to play a lot against a Tau player and the games were never boring. I bought a suit only army, haven't painted them yet

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm not sure I understand why tournament results are being posted in a thread about making Tau fun to play.

None of those lists in the top 20 would be fun to play against. The issue with Tau I had, is that no one really takes lists that aren't tournament worthy. I don't know whether that was a player issue or a codex issue.

Edit: Issue is even too strong of a word. I never had a problem playing against Tau.

Donno about your local tau players, but my lists tend to feature six or more crisis suits in various setups (up to 13 if you count commanders), several hammerheads, 1 riptide and/or ghost tops, and hardly ever broadsides. It's what

Part of the reason tau sometimes seem a bit going hard, I'd that we have very few "decent" options. Everything is either great, or horrible. Most weapon choices are no-brainer as there is one obviously better choice, most support elements have obvious units they need to support, and most subpar choices have very obvious superior counterparts.
It's very hard to build a tau list without getting a powerful list, or have gaping holes of shooting yourself in the leg in very obvious ways (that at times just annoy people further as it seems you look down on them.)




As for Quickjager, I'm not going to respect that with a response. Severe lack of reading comprehension or situation awareness.

I do a few things to make things more fun with Tau, but as always it depends on the meta you play in. Should you happen to play against scat bike/wraith knight spam, gladius, grav star or decurions you should take the toughest list you can in order to actually stand a chance, if however you play in a more casual meta, as I usually do, here are a few tips to make the Tau a more enjoyable experience for both players.

-play mobile, engaging lists as opposed to gunlines

-avoid using formations or at the very least don't take the egregiously powerful ones

-don't overuse ignore cover or interceptor, if you are really looking for something challenging/different take none of each

-no MC's below 1000 points, no more than 1 MC above 1000 points (preferably still none)

-no GC's outside of apocalypse sized games

-try unusual/ sub-optimal load outs to give opponents something different and to give you something challenging

-try unusual/ sub-optimal units for the same reason

-try a highlander list (in other words a list that takes no more than 1 of any unit)

Here is an example of a list I use occasionally that fits this description that I find incredibly fun to play and so far so do my opponents.



Hope that helped give you some ideas. As always be mature and discuss with you're opponent what type of game you are looking for and to have fun! Cheers!

I find your recommendation list highly problematic, I'll go over the reasons on a point per point basis :

-Play mobile, this should not be tau spesific. Every gunline is annoying.

-Avoiding formations is bad. Some unlock brand new playstyles you just can't have without. Not using them against armies without formations should be more fitting.

-not overdose interceptor or ignore cover. No interceptor means autoloss to drop pod armies. No ignores cover means you intentionally don't play your only strength. Against a semi competent player with a decent army, this is not an option.

-MC limits are way too unreasonable. Many armies field one or more MCs at less than 1000, and over five at 1850. Why are we forbidden to get big toys? Spam is bad, but when used in a varied and moderate manner, they are cool.

-No GMC under 2000+ "apocalypse" games? Sure. If you can assure me no imperial Knights or thier likes. Otherwise we are being hypocritical here.

-unusual is nice, suboptimal is insulting for the opponent.

-highlander is harsh on tau, especially with your former limits, we do not have a big unit pool, especially at roles like anti tank. (our MCs do most work there) especially if you don't have forgeworld access (and the very people that has problems with tau, often have with FW)



I'm looking at your example army list, and it's just.... Weak. Incredibly so. Nearly no anti tank, nothing to protect yourself from drop pods, no way to deal MCs or TeQ complete lack of markers to boost accuracy and some extremely suboptimal units.
Had I faced this list, despite playing mostly casual, I'd be disappointed. It won't feel a win earned, it will feel a win gifted. And it will be easy, even for my CSM dudes (and I hardly scrap 1850 with them.)

This discussion got really salty which is honestly a huge shame that as a community we can't stop throwing gak at each other and instead focus on trying to have fun.

Tau players: Its important to know that Tau are a very strong codex and in the realm of the "have vs have not" codexes Tau in particular dumpster the have not dexes incredibly hard with their ranged firepower, durable and/or cost effective units, having all of their strength front loaded into their shooting power (which is the most powerful phase in the game currently and the easier to deal damage with), and their easy access to special rules like Ignores Cover that fully negates certain armies entire defense (Dark Eldar, Nids, Orks, Guard). Tau are generally not found participating in melee combat or contesting objectives so the majority of the interaction with Tau is through shooting while close combat for the most part is taking heavy overwatch casualties to then usually sweep the unit (unless its a riptide which might get locked in combat or a stormsurge which proceeds to stomp everything to death because stomp is gak). It is frustrating to play against that if your army lacks the tools to bypass the whole "move up the field while getting shoot to death" thing and its not fun ultimately playing with half your army because the other half dies before they can do anything except be a bullet stop. Tau armies generally don't create a lot of interaction between the players and its expecially bad with the big suits as they tend to not die easily which removes another fun aspect of the game for the opponent (putting a dent into the enemy army). While Tau might not be the best army (Eldar hold that honor of being king of cheese hill) they are still incredibly strong and they are one of the few codexes that generally has great options all around with only a few stinker units (those flyers are made of gak). It really rubs people the wrong way (myself included) when you hear about Tau players complaining that Fire Warriors aren't good or that Crisis Suits just aren't worth taking when in most other armies those units would be auto includes. Also stop using tournament results as a barometer of how good a codex is. Tournament play is often times about how much you can pull off and just because your codex doesn't have rerolling 2+ invisible death stars or 600 points of free obsec models doesn't change the fact that your army can table a Dark Eldar player on turn 2.

Tau haters: Stop being a jerk to Tau players in general. These people have put in money, time, and effort to assemble, paint, and play with an army that they enjoy. For every cheesemonger Tau or any OP army player there are probably 10x or 20x as many people who play the army because they enjoy it. People like the fluff, the look of the models, and the playstyle of the Tau so let them enjoy their models. If you don't like playing against Tau then politely decline a game with them because its not the type of game you want to play. I wouldn't fault somebody from not wanting to play against a Green Tide (RIP ) because movement and the assault phase for that army is time consuming and a bit of a headache to play. Just because somebody thought a Crisis Suit, Riptide, Fire Warrior, or Kroot looked cool doesn't automatically mean they are a WAAC jerk who wants to curb stomp people and gains pleasure from the tears of others. If the Tau codex is too strong then take that issue up with GW because they are the ones who wrote the book. Its just as much the Tau players fault that the Stormsurge ridiculous as it is the Eldar players fault that the WK is insanely OP or the Ork players fault that the Killa Kan is horribly underpowered and gak. Again if you don't like playing against those models then tell your opponent that you don't want to play against them or come to some rules adjustment agreement. If an agreement can't be met then play somebody else.

I say all of this as somebody who loves the Tau (not as much as my Orks ) but also as somebody who also dislikes aspects of how the Tau play and understands the frustration others can experience against the Tau. Playing against theTau (also Necrons and Eldar) means I have to really bring my best list because if I don't my army is usually at a disadvantage . Playing as Tau I need to really be careful about what I bring when I'm playing against Orks vs when I'm playing against Necrons. A list that can potentially handle Necrons would completely obliterate Orks. Its really unfortunate that GW did such a horrible job of game balance that it is like this but that's just the sad reality of the current situation.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I find your recommendation list highly problematic, I'll go over the reasons on a point per point basis :

-Play mobile, this should not be tau spesific. Every gunline is annoying.

-Avoiding formations is bad. Some unlock brand new playstyles you just can't have without. Not using them against armies without formations should be more fitting.

-not overdose interceptor or ignore cover. No interceptor means autoloss to drop pod armies. No ignores cover means you intentionally don't play your only strength. Against a semi competent player with a decent army, this is not an option.

-MC limits are way too unreasonable. Many armies field one or more MCs at less than 1000, and over five at 1850. Why are we forbidden to get big toys? Spam is bad, but when used in a varied and moderate manner, they are cool.

-No GMC under 2000+ "apocalypse" games? Sure. If you can assure me no imperial Knights or thier likes. Otherwise we are being hypocritical here.

-unusual is nice, suboptimal is insulting for the opponent.

-highlander is harsh on tau, especially with your former limits, we do not have a big unit pool, especially at roles like anti tank. (our MCs do most work there) especially if you don't have forgeworld access (and the very people that has problems with tau, often have with FW)



I'm looking at your example army list, and it's just.... Weak. Incredibly so. Nearly no anti tank, nothing to protect yourself from drop pods, no way to deal MCs or TeQ complete lack of markers to boost accuracy and some extremely suboptimal units.
Had I faced this list, despite playing mostly casual, I'd be disappointed. It won't feel a win earned, it will feel a win gifted. And it will be easy, even for my CSM dudes (and I hardly scrap 1850 with them.)

You're absolutely right, it is weak. I'd say it's even slightly on the weak side for my meta. However I've been playing since 3rd and generally need to play slightly weaker lists in order to reach what is roughly a 50/50 win/loss ratio which is what I aim for. If I lose too much I tune up my list, If I win too much I tone it down. My meta involves Blood Angels, IG, Orks and CSM players, and despite these armies weak overall power level these players don't usually spam their best units or take the best list they can (my meta involves plenty of hobbyists who see the game as a means of showcasing their models with little to no understanding or passion for optimal list building). When you are going against not only weak armies, but weak armies with sub-optimal lists, Tau needs to tone it down a lot.

I think too many players have a tendency to over generalize what casual means. In some flg meta's casual means taking a fully competitive list and removing one or two overpowered units for slightly less overpowered units. Some meta's define casual as lists with nothing but naked tactical marines (or equivalent) on foot. Most fall in between the two. Perhaps I should have mentioned that both high AV spam and full drop lists are virtually nonexistent in my meta. The truth is there is no universal one-size-fits-all approach to make Tau more fun, since meta's vary so wildly depending on where you play. My suggestions are just guidelines I impose on myself, they aren't set in stone, and if I change store's (or you do) the most important thing is to determine the general types of lists and players and assimilate. I suppose the most reliable way to make it fun to play against Tau is to communicate and be committed to the enjoyment of both players. If you should happen to run into a player who has unreasonable expectations that you wouldn't find fun there is nothing forcing you to play. Just shake hands, walk away and acknowledge that the two of you don't have compatible interests in the hobby.

I, for one, enjoy all manner of play from super casual to cut throat competitive and have a large enough collection to do either or anything in between. What makes the game enjoyable for me is playing and socializing with a decent human being. YMMV

Heavy bolters are terrible generalist weapons, so they are not a viable choice except in list tailoring situations. What a difference a shot and a STR point make. And, of course, gakky platforms.

As for making Tau fun, I think it's largely a lost cause. Most Tau players I go up against and some in here just don't seem to get it. They hardcore invalidate a huge number of list archetypes and then wonder why people get upset. It's like if in 3rd I kept Rhino rushing with BA over and over and then wondered why people would get upset. Hey, it's just what my list did, right? Just like Tau just shoot people off the table with no recourse. Particularly lower end lists that basically can't shoot back in any meaningful way and can't survive to assault. But hey, that's just what Tau do, right?

Heavy Bolters are garbage. You only add them in if you have left over points, otherwise I have never seen anyone take them. If you as a Tau player are scared of a AV10 open topped vehicle that can shoot 6 S5 AP4 shots at BS4 then you have other problems. Land Speeders with 2 weapons are expensive and equipping them that way makes them garbage. As an Ork player I would jump for joy if my opponent took 2 or 3 squadrons of 3 Land speeders with Heavy Bolters. 2 Full Squadrons = 36 shots, 24 hits and 16 wounds that ignore my armor, even if I am out of cover without a painboy that is only 16 dead boyz which equals about 96pts, on my turn I will annihilate at least one squadron completely with my lackluster Anti-Tank weapons.

On to the how to make tau fun thing.

For some reason every Tau game I have ever played (Several different areas) felt the same and looked the same. A handful of Crisis Suits, 1-2 units of MissileSides, and between 1-3 Riptides. So what happens is I run up the field and die. Or I stay in the back field and Die or I hide in cover and Die.

Against a top tier codex like Eldar or Necrons this is ok because your opponent is OP as well so it balances itself out. Against Mid range codexs and Low tier codexs this becomes boring and basically a waste of everyone's time.

So how do you counter this? Its already been said, bring sup par lists. If you really have to bring riptides then only bring 1 and don't bring Broadsides. Load up on Kroot, tau hate them but they aren't that bad compared to mid/low tier armies. If you want to bring Broadsides then don't give them 12 bloody shots each (or whatever it is).

Are Tau the #1 codex? No, Eldar are and will continue to be for a long time is my guess. But that doesn't mean Tau aren't OP as well.

Lastly, if you want to bring an optimized list and nobody will play you then maybe you should consider playing someone's army for awhile. I let an Eldar friend play my Ork army for a few weeks against Strong armies, and he quickly understood why it sucks playing against Tau/Eldar/SM/Necrons with low tier armies. It gave him a lot of perspective and the next time I played him he chose to only take 1 Scat bike per 3 and didn't spam them as troops. It helped make the game a lot more fun for us.

Tau look cool and I love them and almost started playing them back when they came out. I would love to keep playing against them, but at the moment it feels almost like an auto-loss when I do.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone is suggesting HBs. What would you take them on, Tac squads? You have to pay for 4 dead weight models when you take it. A Land speeder? The thing the SMS are really good against and the Tau army can take in a decent number?

A HB does, assuming a fire warrior, 2/3*5/6*2/3= 20/54 per shot. So a HB will kill just over 1 FW a turn, hardly destroying them. Especially when considering the over priced delivery options...if every model in a tac squad could take a HB they would be worth it against infantry...and only infantry. The weapon being heavy doesn't help.

Against a crisis suit, its even worse. 2/3*2/3*1/3= 4/27. 2 Hbs will cause a bit more than a wound against a crisis suit. If you look at the riptide or something else, it gets even worse.

I play Tau and play against tau. The fire warriors are not what I'm afraid of or using to kill stuff. Suits do the major lifting, with drones or finders using marker lights for support. HB aren't really good here, grav is. And that's why you see grav spammed, not the other imperial weapons.

Well to be honest here .. a heavy bolter land speeder does outrange an sms by an effective 12".. so really that is not going to be a problem

A heavy bolter landspeeder outranges a SMS system by 6". Most of the SMS systems are relentless, so the difference in range is a non-starter. I'll grant you that the HB landspeeder will start the shooting, but I think we can see that the suits will easily win the fight while suffering no real casualties considering the damage they'll do.

I'm not sure why you used the term effective here. The LS can't JSJ like the suits can, if it could it would be much better and taken more.

Regardless, I think it was clearly shown that HBs are awful and the fact they are being suggested at all is laughable. Grav sure, that's a solid weapon, but not HBs. They haven't been good since 3rd at least.

How to make Tau more fun to play against....

Don't play Tau.

Sorry, every Tau player that bleats 'but Space Marines, but Eldar! But Codex that got some balance tweaks, a decurion formation and other things!' gets no pity from me.

I play Tyranids.
I play CSM.
I played Blood Angels.

Why my Tyranids dislike Tau - oh, you have how many things ignoring cover? Welp, there goes pretty much my entire army's defensive strategy. How fun. Oh, wait, how much of it is S8+? Oh, well, guess I don't get to have Synapse then. Wait, you also have massed overwatch with a BS buff? Guess I don't get to assault anything. Oh, and you have 4+ saves out the wazoo? Guess I can't try mass firepower either.

Fun.

Why my CSM dislike Tau - well, not only do you have an obscene amount of AP 2 and AP 3. You have it on mobile platforms that appear to outrange any possible weapon I could bring. Oh, and your god damn book has not only been updated once, but twice - and still remains top tier though ours is still gutter trash. 'Oh but you can take supplements. you have IA 13'. And you have IA 4 and have a supplement that ALSO got updated to be even better.

The CSM community is not amused by your shenanigans. We got nerfed into the ground and the internet explodes in rage any time CSM suggest getting anythign remotely viable because apparantly no one can forget 2 pages of the 3.5 codex or a single psychic power of the 5th ed. book yet everyone else seems to have forgotten Fish of Fury.

PEPPERIDGE FARM REMEMBERS.

Why my Blood Angels hated Tau - oh look. We're getting shot to death. In the same way the CSM get shot to death. I'd like to think with jump packs we could get to assault quicker but lol nope.

HOW FUN AND INTERACTIVE.

How to make Tau fun to play against.

Don't play them as Tau. Take the army. Pick it right up. Case and all. And put it under the stairs. Call it Harry Potter if you must.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
How to make Tau more fun to play against....

Stop trolling, man.