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Reading the doom of mymeara book. Strikes me using the pale courts you can run some pretty insane bound armies.

e.g.

Pale Court, halls of martial splendour, aspect lord shrine:

Autarch, fusion gun, swooping hawk wings

3 x 5 dire avengers


Wraith titans:

Wraithknight, 2 scatter lasers, ghost glaive and shield

Wraithknight 2 scatter lasers, heavy wraith cannons

Revenant titan, pulsars

1840pts bound army. How effective this would actually be I have no idea. The wraith titan formation gives the close support special rule, basically if the wraithknights is within 6" of the titan, and you want to assault the titan, you have to assault the wraithknight instead unless the titan is closer. Even fliers aren't necessarily a counter as the titan has it's AA missiles; Heavy 4, interceptor, skyfire, reroll armour pen rolls, 48" range. They would have a good chance of knocking out most fliers if they don't jink.


How about 5 wraithknights instead?

Pale Court, halls of martial splendour, aspect lord shrine:

Autarch, fusion gun, swooping hawk wings

3 x 5 dire avengers

Wraith Construct:
Wraithknight, ghost glaive and shield

Wraith Construct:
Wraithknight, ghost glaive and shield

Wraith Construct:
Wraithknight 1 scatter laser, heavy wraith cannons

Wraith Construct:
Wraithknight 2 scatter lasers, heavy wraith cannons

Wraith Construct:
Wraithknight 2 scatter lasers, heavy wraith cannons

1840pts bound army. Don't know if those would be the optimal set ups for the wraithknights but whatever, you get the picture. Its horrendous. I guess it explains the existence of comp packs. 5-6 Lynx's could also be quite nasty with them deep striking and gaining a 4+ cover on the turn they arrive.


Anyway what are the most horrendous lists you can think of at 1850pts?

This list... is probably the most evil list one could field... I love it!
Are you looking for nasty 1850 lists in general or for just Eldar?

I just want to point out how much trouble any SM list will cause you with alpha striking grav, or when cults basic troops come out

I was going to say 120 Necron Warriors at 1850

The army that won the most recent LVO was pretty full of cheese. max number of warp spiders... iirc.

 Smotejob wrote:
The army that won the most recent LVO was pretty full of cheese. max number of warp spiders... iirc.

Harrison was only using 5 man units, so no, not maxed. With min HQ & troop tax on a CAD, at 1850, ITC build limitations, one can field

Warlock

x3 jetbikes
x3 jetbikes

x3 9 pack Spiders, Fast Attack with the CAD

2 Aspect hosts:
x1 10 pack, x2 9 pack

x3 10 packs

1842 in points, 85 spiders.
...
I've been tempted, but the list plays too damned slow.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
The army that won the most recent LVO was pretty full of cheese. max number of warp spiders... iirc.

Harrison was only using 5 man units, so no, not maxed. With min HQ & troop tax on a CAD, at 1850, ITC build limitations, one can field

Warlock

x3 jetbikes
x3 jetbikes

x3 9 pack Spiders, Fast Attack with the CAD

2 Aspect hosts:
x1 10 pack, x2 9 pack

x3 10 packs

1842 in points, 85 spiders.
...
I've been tempted, but the list plays too damned slow.

The reason they field 5 Spider minimum units is to use the terrain to deny as much of the enemy shooting as possible. So using the ITC restrictions, the nastiest list I can see is this:

CAD________
Farseer skyrunner

3 Scatterbikers
3 Scatterbikers
3 Scatterbikers
3 Scatterbikers
3 Scatterbikers
3 Scatterbikers

WraithKnight (2x cannons)

5 Spiders w. Exarch
5 Spiders w. Exarch
5 Spiders w. Exarch

Aspect Host 1__________

5 Spiders w. Exarch
5 Spiders w. Exarch
5 Spiders w. Exarch

Aspect Host 2__________

5 Spiders w. Exarch
5 Spiders w. Exarch
5 Spiders w. Exarch

super nasty galef, how do you remember which spiders have the host bonus? lol

 Castellan Alaric wrote:
super nasty galef, how do you remember which spiders have the host bonus? lol

Paint them differently, have squad markings, etc. You send the CAD Spiders just a few inches closer then the Aspect Host Spiders, so your opponent choses to waste fire on them first.

I would personally never run this list (of even more than 2 units of Spiders). Not only because it is boring, but you will eventually run into a list that has tons on MSU CC that will just wreck the Spiders.

--

 Galef wrote:
The reason they field 5 Spider minimum units is to use the terrain to deny as much of the enemy shooting as possible.

And ease of Deep Striking; this straight from Harrison's input on a list I am working on.

As wonderfully academic as all this is, would the game ever finish passed Turn 3?

The new doom of mymera detachment the pale court can have aspect warriors as the "troops" choice and an Autarch (with webs pinner and warp spider jump pack) as the HQ

If ypu merely fielded that plus aspect formations of warp spiders and swooping Hawks I think you could table any army in 2 turns


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am pretty sure you can have:

Warhost of the pale courts. 285pts

- 3x Aspect Lord Shrine (5 Warp spiders) 95 pts
- 1x Halls of Martial Splendour Autarch - 70pts plus Web spinner (10 pts) plus warp jump generator (10pts)

Then TWO OF 3x 5 Swooping Hawks formation inc one exarch (90pts) 270pts
Then THREE OF 3x6 warp spiders formation inc one exarch (124pts) 372pts




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So that's 69 warp spiders (70 if you count the autarch) plus 30 swooping Hawks. Almost everything BS5

ConanMan wrote:
The new doom of mymera detachment the pale court can have aspect warriors as the "troops" choice and an Autarch (with webs pinner and warp spider jump pack) as the HQ

If ypu merely fielded that plus aspect formations of warp spiders and swooping Hawks I think you could table any army in 2 turns


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am pretty sure you can have:

Warhost of the pale courts. 285pts

- 3x Aspect Lord Shrine (5 Warp spiders) 95 pts
- 1x Halls of Martial Splendour Autarch - 70pts plus Web spinner (10 pts) plus warp jump generator (10pts)

Then TWO OF 3x 5 Swooping Hawks formation inc one exarch (90pts) 270pts
Then THREE OF 3x6 warp spiders formation inc one exarch (124pts) 372pts

So that's 69 warp spiders (70 if you count the autarch) plus 30 swooping Hawks. Almost everything BS5

Necron Decurion AV13 spam says Hi. Marine Drop Grav spam says Hello as well.

Tau will also give that list fits. SMS don't need LoS and if you warp-jump out of their range, it's impossible to shoot at them next turn.

--

ConanMan wrote:
The new doom of mymera detachment the pale court can have aspect warriors as the "troops" choice and an Autarch (with webs pinner and warp spider jump pack) as the HQ

If ypu merely fielded that plus aspect formations of warp spiders and swooping Hawks I think you could table any army in 2 turns


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am pretty sure you can have:

Warhost of the pale courts. 285pts

- 3x Aspect Lord Shrine (5 Warp spiders) 95 pts
- 1x Halls of Martial Splendour Autarch - 70pts plus Web spinner (10 pts) plus warp jump generator (10pts)

Then TWO OF 3x 5 Swooping Hawks formation inc one exarch (90pts) 270pts
Then THREE OF 3x6 warp spiders formation inc one exarch (124pts) 372pts




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So that's 69 warp spiders (70 if you count the autarch) plus 30 swooping Hawks. Almost everything BS5

Table any army in two turns??? You havent faced my renegades...

It's just not possible to face that sort of army 18 squads, 12 of which jump when targeted.

100 models that kill everything and move in all 3 phases. 4 if you count the opponents shooting phase. 19 models with 2 wounds. Necrons would have no chance. Not even close. Same with drop pod marines. Firstly the eldar can null deploy secondly even if they don't they can travel the whole board in one turn.

It's not up for debate I'm afraid. Sorry guys. I'm not being big headed when I say it there isn't an army in 40k that would stand a chance

ConanMan wrote:
It's just not possible to face that sort of army 18 squads, 12 of which jump when targeted.

100 models that kill everything and move in all 3 phases. 4 if you count the opponents shooting phase. 19 models with 2 wounds. Necrons would have no chance. Not even close. Same with drop pod marines. Firstly the eldar can null deploy secondly even if they don't they can travel the whole board in one turn.

It's not up for debate I'm afraid. Sorry guys. I'm not being big headed when I say it there isn't an army in 40k that would stand a chance

An army that doesnt need to shoot... wolfstar is a thing you know. Also ny renegade army has 250 models that come back to life.... ill win the war of attrition.

Tau lists can deal with much of the Warp Spider/Scatter bike shenanigans, simply because their threat bubble/range is so much greater that for the spiders to get in and do damage they are unlikely to be able to get back out of range in any reasonable fashion. Clearly if the map is just absurdly terrain'd up - then yes Warp Spiders probably hold the edge. But even in well terrain'd tournaments it's unlikely to be that simple. And any ranged army that faces spiders is going to seize high ground to maximize their field of vision across the areas around them for warp spider hunting.

Pure melee armies (knights and the afformentioned puppies) also will force the spider/bike lists to try and jet around the map avoiding them. Which won't work if the opponent splits up and zones the eldar player out.

ConanMan wrote:
It's just not possible to face that sort of army 18 squads, 12 of which jump when targeted.

100 models that kill everything and move in all 3 phases. 4 if you count the opponents shooting phase. 19 models with 2 wounds. Necrons would have no chance. Not even close. Same with drop pod marines. Firstly the eldar can null deploy secondly even if they don't they can travel the whole board in one turn.

It's not up for debate I'm afraid. Sorry guys. I'm not being big headed when I say it there isn't an army in 40k that would stand a chance

Guess what. I have fought a similar list (only 20 Spiders, but more would not have helped him). Eldar player conceded Turn 4. I was playing Daemons and had lots of FleshHounds, Screamers, 2 SoulGrinders & summoned a Drone unit. Every time I charged a Spider unit it died. Hawks couldn't even do any wounds. The Scatternbikes did much more work than the Spiders and they still got charged eventually (there is only so much room on a 4x6 table.

So not only is it up for debate, the debate is closed. MSU CC obliterates SpiderSpam. AV13 gives them serious issue because they cannot touch it.

--

Massed S8 ap2. This could probably be done better but here's an idea for it:

Aspect Host:
2x 7 warp spiders
1x 8 warp spiders

Crimson Death:
1x Crimson Hunter Exarch: bright lances
2x crimson hunters

Hornet Swarm:
3x 2 Hornets: 2 pulse lasers each

Hornet Swarm:
3x 2 Hornets: 2 pulse lasers each

So tally up:
6 units with 8 s8 ap2 shots each that outflank on a 2+ turn 2 (all tanks die on turn 2)
3 flyers with 4 s8 ap2 shots each
3 units with 14-16 death spinnershots.

Could keep everything but the warp spiders in reserve. They should survive with their spidey sense (flicker jump) and a few extra models and night fighting will help too. I would roll on the strategic table and hope for stealth(ruins) and move through cover. Turn 2 the hornets come in on 2+ from random board edges which should allow me to get good angles to target and kill practically anything. High priority targets are anything with a big gun and/ or skyfire. Turn 2-4 flyers come in and help me rule the skies all while the warp spiders warp around and do spidery things to the opponents infantry. Turn 3 surviving hornets do as much damage and wrack up as many points as they can. I could swap out a hornet to place an aegis defense line with a comms relay to ensure a 2+ cover save for at least one spider unit and to up my chances that all 6 hornet units will come on. (with 6 units the expected number to come on is 5 on a 2+ reserve roll)

I love hornets.. great model.. great rules..

My biggest question is not with the hornet its with the wargear list... why is the pulse laser the same cost as the starcannon but in every way better?? Like i just don't get it..

 Galef wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
It's just not possible to face that sort of army 18 squads, 12 of which jump when targeted.

100 models that kill everything and move in all 3 phases. 4 if you count the opponents shooting phase. 19 models with 2 wounds. Necrons would have no chance. Not even close. Same with drop pod marines. Firstly the eldar can null deploy secondly even if they don't they can travel the whole board in one turn.

It's not up for debate I'm afraid. Sorry guys. I'm not being big headed when I say it there isn't an army in 40k that would stand a chance

Guess what. I have fought a similar list (only 20 Spiders, but more would not have helped him). Eldar player conceded Turn 4. I was playing Daemons and had lots of FleshHounds, Screamers, 2 SoulGrinders & summoned a Drone unit. Every time I charged a Spider unit it died. Hawks couldn't even do any wounds. The Scatternbikes did much more work than the Spiders and they still got charged eventually (there is only so much room on a 4x6 table.

So not only is it up for debate, the debate is closed. MSU CC obliterates SpiderSpam. AV13 gives them serious issue because they cannot touch it.

--

It's fine. If you want to compare 100 models to 20 that's fine. I'll leave you to that I'm sorry there has been some sort of hostility to the premise of so many spiders and swooping Hawks. I guess you really need to have a next level meta outlook. It's not point and click gaming I am talking about. I am talking about knowing what to do.

I don't know of a list where 100 models that move in all 3 phases and can traverse half the board in tiny squads could be stopped, except by a similar list. (Which was the Las Vegas OPEN final by the way.)

Don't get all grumpy but I really think all the lists that would be seen as better simply couldn't dent it. Even bespoke counters. That in itself is massive and all I need to add because the hawk /spider spam ISN'T bespoke it's generic all comers. And can't be taken out by any tailored specific counters.

For example Tau. You go first, I Null deploy I go first I do the same. Maybe putting the Autarch in a building. 18 units deep strike with Autarch reserves bonus. 15 will arrive. 6 pie plates. 170 str 6 shots. Tau are I2 they almost all die hit on 2 s wounded on 2s even rip rides. Dead in 2 turns.I then move twice more each unit then move a 2nd time if you target me. 18 units to target. You probably have 50% of your units effective.

MSN CC have all the Hull points stripped in close combat by the Hawks.

Game over I'm not even being horrible but if you have an ideas I'm all ears

ConanMan wrote:

 Galef wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
It's just not possible to face that sort of army 18 squads, 12 of which jump when targeted.

100 models that kill everything and move in all 3 phases. 4 if you count the opponents shooting phase. 19 models with 2 wounds. Necrons would have no chance. Not even close. Same with drop pod marines. Firstly the eldar can null deploy secondly even if they don't they can travel the whole board in one turn.

It's not up for debate I'm afraid. Sorry guys. I'm not being big headed when I say it there isn't an army in 40k that would stand a chance

Guess what. I have fought a similar list (only 20 Spiders, but more would not have helped him). Eldar player conceded Turn 4. I was playing Daemons and had lots of FleshHounds, Screamers, 2 SoulGrinders & summoned a Drone unit. Every time I charged a Spider unit it died. Hawks couldn't even do any wounds. The Scatternbikes did much more work than the Spiders and they still got charged eventually (there is only so much room on a 4x6 table.

So not only is it up for debate, the debate is closed. MSU CC obliterates SpiderSpam. AV13 gives them serious issue because they cannot touch it.

--

It's fine. If you want to compare 100 models to 20 that's fine. I'll leave you to that I'm sorry there has been some sort of hostility to the premise of so many spiders and swooping Hawks. I guess you really need to have a next level meta outlook. It's not point and click gaming I am talking about. I am talking about knowing what to do.

I don't know of a list where 100 models that move in all 3 phases and can traverse half the board in tiny squads could be stopped, except by a similar list. (Which was the Las Vegas OPEN final by the way.)

Don't get all grumpy but I really think all the lists that would be seen as better simply couldn't dent it. Even bespoke counters. That in itself is massive and all I need to add because the hawk /spider spam ISN'T bespoke it's generic all comers. And can't be taken out by any tailored specific counters.

For example Tau. You go first, I Null deploy I go first I do the same. Maybe putting the Autarch in a building. 18 units deep strike with Autarch reserves bonus. 15 will arrive. 6 pie plates. 170 str 6 shots. Tau are I2 they almost all die hit on 2 s wounded on 2s even rip rides. Dead in 2 turns.I then move twice more each unit then move a 2nd time if you target me. 18 units to target. You probably have 50% of your units effective.

MSN CC have all the Hull points stripped in close combat by the Hawks.

Game over I'm not even being horrible but if you have an ideas I'm all ears

Just a few ideas on this from a tau player who switched to tau when he saw the meta heading the way it was.

I go first, i put my riptide wing (intercept and velocity trackers), broadsides - HYMP & SMS (3 with buffmander) and stormsurges (1) and drone formation (markers all with intercept -fromation bonus) as far forward as possible, across the board (if I go second then I deploy as near your units on the table as possible). it's not possible for you to be more than 42" from me and in cover at a tournament (they generally dont dump scenery right in the corner). They all have the smart missiles, firing lots of times, To kill the autarch, I need to do 3 wounds to it, he has a 3+ save. So 3 unsaved wounds against a 3+ save, means 9 wounds, which at bs 3, requires 18 shots. I have 8 from each riptide, 4 from each broadside and 4 from the stormsurge (which either moves 12 to get in range if i badly need it to, or deploys anchors for a mega intercept - see next point). Y

you have 18 deep striking squads, with the autarch dead, you're getting 12 of them in this turn. I'll ignore the hawks, so lets say of those 12 that arrive, 10 are spiders. If the stormsurge deployed anchors (didnt have to move), you're getting 2x str 10 ap 2 templates and still have the ripple fire from the missiles on the spiders for any that are out of LOS. I believe that the SMS missiles should be sufficient from each of the riptides, the broadsides to force all squads to blink out of range. The great thing about this is I can declare my intercepts one at a time so can stop once they are all out of range of me.

For the planes coming on, I've got 9 plasma accelerator shots, intercept and skyfire, which you can jink, and str7 missiles on the broadsides (and str 5 on the rest) which you cant. I'll have some marker lights from the drones on the buffmander and the drone wing

Now I haven't done the numbers on what will survive after that and whether it will be enough to kill me. But with the autarch dead and the entire army having intercept for each phase you jump in, I believe I have a good chance of an army that can both take on this spider doomhost, as well as any other reasonable army.

If this doesnt work, please let me know how you'd beat it as Im strongly considering taking this to tournaments. The final parts of the army (that are interchangeable) is culexus + stormsurge / taunar supremacy suit.

Trazer985 wrote:

Just a few ideas on this from a tau player who switched to tau when he saw the meta heading the way it was.

I go first, i put my riptide wing (intercept and velocity trackers), broadsides - HYMP & SMS (3 with buffmander) and stormsurges (1) and drone formation (markers all with intercept -fromation bonus) as far forward as possible, across the board (if I go second then I deploy as near your units on the table as possible). it's not possible for you to be more than 42" from me and in cover at a tournament (they generally dont dump scenery right in the corner). They all have the smart missiles, firing lots of times, To kill the autarch, I need to do 3 wounds to it, he has a 3+ save. So 3 unsaved wounds against a 3+ save, means 9 wounds, which at bs 3, requires 18 shots. I have 8 from each riptide, 4 from each broadside and 4 from the stormsurge (which either moves 12 to get in range if i badly need it to, or deploys anchors for a mega intercept - see next point). Y

you have 18 deep striking squads, with the autarch dead, you're getting 12 of them in this turn. I'll ignore the hawks, so lets say of those 12 that arrive, 10 are spiders. If the stormsurge deployed anchors (didnt have to move), you're getting 2x str 10 ap 2 templates and still have the ripple fire from the missiles on the spiders for any that are out of LOS. I believe that the SMS missiles should be sufficient from each of the riptides, the broadsides to force all squads to blink out of range. The great thing about this is I can declare my intercepts one at a time so can stop once they are all out of range of me.

For the planes coming on, I've got 9 plasma accelerator shots, intercept and skyfire, which you can jink, and str7 missiles on the broadsides (and str 5 on the rest) which you cant. I'll have some marker lights from the drones on the buffmander and the drone wing

Now I haven't done the numbers on what will survive after that and whether it will be enough to kill me. But with the autarch dead and the entire army having intercept for each phase you jump in, I believe I have a good chance of an army that can both take on this spider doomhost, as well as any other reasonable army.

If this doesnt work, please let me know how you'd beat it as Im strongly considering taking this to tournaments. The final parts of the army (that are interchangeable) is culexus + stormsurge / taunar supremacy suit.

So just to clarify, under riptide Nova, the ripple fire is the only one that is restricted to the shooting phase, so if you ripple you will NOT also have it in your opponents movement phase (for intercepting). just wanted to let you know.

But I am putting together a similar list you may have seen me post in that section of the forum, for NOVA.

isn't it until the start of the next movement phase?

fair enough if it is, i dont have my codex next to me, only my battlescribe, and i'm not going to argue a point that can be resolved by getting the actual working.

I still think I have enough firepower to force a blink away, and then use the missiles in my next turn with the ripple fire, should it be necessary.

Trazer985 wrote:
isn't it until the start of the next movement phase?

fair enough if it is, i dont have my codex next to me, only my battlescribe, and i'm not going to argue a point that can be resolved by getting the actual working.

I still think I have enough firepower to force a blink away, and then use the missiles in my next turn with the ripple fire, should it be necessary.

Your point still stands, just targeting them forces them to blink regardless of volume of shots. So your point still stands

As for the Nova charge / ripple fire business. Nova charge general rule says "lasts until the start of your next turn", thus your 3++ invul .. your 4d6 assault jump etc can be used. The reason ripple fire does NOT work, is that the ripple fire rule itself says "in your shooting phase" specifically. I guess it comes down to the TO and your local groups interpretation of what constitutes a "shooting phase"... but otherwise you would not be able to intercept with ripple fire.

 Galef wrote:
Guess what. I have fought a similar list (only 20 Spiders, but more would not have helped him). Eldar player conceded Turn 4. I was playing Daemons and had lots of FleshHounds, Screamers, 2 SoulGrinders & summoned a Drone unit. Every time I charged a Spider unit it died. Hawks couldn't even do any wounds. The Scatternbikes did much more work than the Spiders and they still got charged eventually (there is only so much room on a 4x6 table.

So not only is it up for debate, the debate is closed.

Thanks! Now we can all go home!

 Galef wrote:
MSU CC obliterates SpiderSpam. AV13 gives them serious issue because they cannot touch it.
--

Care to put that to the test? Gonna be in the Los Angeles area any time soon?

You cannot state that more spiders would not have helped with certainty. Pretty much every list we're flying here is 30+. One anecdote versus a watered down, not-quite-spider-spam list does not make your case.Tell me you consistently beat this guy and I'll show you one player better than another ( you would be the better player ).

Anything AV13 will have AV 12 or lower on the back or sides and therefore will die to spider shooting. Their maneuverability gets it done. I've done it. More than once.

A full Land Raider list will stump spiders. Which is why Hawks get invited to the party.

So your daemons beat a spider list. Big deal. I won't be fielding 5 dude units of spiders. I haven't been. 5 model units easily die to h2h, like you managed. With 7+ spiders per unit, mine survived h2h beatings to continue to win games.

Can your list do it in a challenge? 1850? ITC?
Srsly.

I do hope you live near Los Angeles, Gauntlet thrown, Galef.

The Filthiest?
-Autarch on bike and some gubbins...

-3 man scatbikes
-3 man scatbikes

-Hornet Swarm (3x hornets w/ Pulse)
-Hornet Swarm (3x hornets w/ Pulse)
-Hornet Swarm (3x hornets w/ Pulse)

This right here is under 1000 points.

Overwhelming firepower indeed!

Add other units to taste!

 whembly wrote:
The Filthiest?
-Autarch on bike and some gubbins...

-3 man scatbikes
-3 man scatbikes

-Hornet Swarm (3x hornets w/ Pulse)
-Hornet Swarm (3x hornets w/ Pulse)
-Hornet Swarm (3x hornets w/ Pulse)

This right here is under 1000 points.

Overwhelming firepower indeed!

Add other units to taste!

played against a double ravenwing bike list with knights and darkshrouds, fear, scout, rerollable 3+ (becomes 2+ with dark shrouds) jink saves, skilled rider. Did ok against it, but lord above it was lame. especially on scouring, he was in my deployment zone on deployment (infiltrate and scout moves). rapid fire plasma really hurts too :(