Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was just tossing around some Eldar lists and is it me or does having a Wraithknight seem more and more of a liability in today's competitive meta? Granted the Wraithknight is a great asset but could those points be invested better with so many lists geared to take one down and in light of the current GMC toe in cover nerf?

-If you run into grav, yes your wraithknight won't do so hot.
-if your opponent has a wraithknight, it's a coin flip to see which knight wins.

-if your opponent is not one of the above, your wraithknight is pretty much worth it's weight in gold.

I played several eldar players with my alternate no-grav battleco a while back. Anyone that ran a wraithknight, it was still running around causing chaos at the end of the game, since it was nigh unkillable to me. One guy did NOT run a WK in his list. I tabled him on turn 2.
Just because it's one of the best models in the game doesn't mean it doesn't have a thing or two that hunts for it. If you see grav in pods or whatnot in the opponent's list, consider reserves.

I think it is definitely more of a liability...

If you are running minimum size bikes and aspect squads the WK sticks out like a sore thumb as the lone priority target, especially considering almost every model I field can shoot and scoot out of LOS/range, etc.

The WK is bad vs Battle Co, it wont do enough damage and grav is amazing against it. Esp now that you dont get ruin 4+ cover.

Vs Eldar, Warp Spiders eat WKs for lunch. This coupled with the fact that your opponent likely has one means its a matter of who rolls better for powers, who gets the better stomps, better d rolls, etc...

Vs Tau, Stormsurges smoke you... I played vs them 3 times recently, 2x at a GT and Stormsurges pretty much down the WK in a partial shooting phase, with regularity.

Vs War Convo, they eat this thing for lunch as well... the shooting from the Skitarii is nasty and the 6's will force you to take a bunch of saves, then they have the long distance grav.

So I find the WK to be a bit of a liability in 3 of the most likely matchups in 40k, so ive dropped it and decided to purely spam aspects and bikes. My list has performed better since (not that it was doing poorly before, the WK is a fine choice, but for me it isnt so great in the current meta.)

Indeed, in top tables of ITC events, you are likely to see armies that can give your Wraith Knight a hard time so if anything, he holds his value as a bullet magnet but you may not get much out of him absent some really good powers being rolled.

text removed.

reds8n

 mortetvie wrote:
I was just tossing around some Eldar lists and is it me or does having a Wraithknight seem more and more of a liability in today's competitive meta? Granted the Wraithknight is a great asset but could those points be invested better with so many lists geared to take one down and in light of the current GMC toe in cover nerf?

No. The WK has more than pulled it's weight in every game I've played. For it's point cost, it completely wrecks face.

That's the real key. It's not that expensive for what it does. Even if it does get graved down by overwhelming firepower, that grav will then not be used on the rest of my army.

Yep, they either deal with it a spen resources shooting trying to take it out, or the WK run around wrecking stuff. Perfect in any situation

I thought it was a headline critical towards balance of the game :O

Yes, he is well worth it, even in a bad matchup.

This may be anecdotal, but I played against my friend's Eldar with my Centstar. He had a WK in his list along with spiders, jetbikes and Harlequins. I brought my 1400+ Super-Centstar. You would think that the WK would die in just 1 turn but he actually survived until the end of the game.

The WK is an excellent complement to any Eldar army as long as you surround him with good supporting units.

Wraithknights are generally an excellent bullet magnet and a general pain in the arse. It patches-over Eldar's CC weakness and can really be used either as a lynchpin or a sacrificial unit.

It really shines when you have to play through a relic mission and having ranged D on a T8 GC is what makes it a great counter to SH and an all around awesome anti-tank option.

If youre really keen on keeping it alive, you can either stick him in cover and hope for 1 on strategic, use a void shield or grab a 2nd farseer and roll on telepathy.

Locally, we did away with the GC toe in cover. This shifted my Wraithknight to always take the 5+ one save. Having this and FnP is significant. We also play D strength as per the book. With that, the Wraithknight is still a very solid choice.

The Skathach with Deathshroud Cannon is fantastic. Drop Pod Grav with Hunter's Eye is down to tactical decision making and creating hard decisions for one's opponent. It is hard to get into deep discussion as this is generally game time decisions.

For me, the Wraithknight is a mainstay in my list and it generally is on the table much more than not.

If you don't bring a WK in your Eldar list then your pulling punches. Even the "hard counters" to WK are putting way more points into killing the thing than the WK is worth. That's points spent not alpha striking the rest of your army which can go about doing it thing and doing damage. WK are bullet magnets and if they die to overwhelming firepower first then so be it.

QUICK REMINDER - RULE #1 IS "BE POLITE".

AT ALL TIMES.

They weren't ITC games, but of the ~4-5 games I've used a wraithknight in, it's pulled its weight once. Not exaggerating, the last game it did exactly 0 wounds and 0 hull points with its wraithcannons...and lasted until the game ended.

This is more an indictment on my dice rolling ability, though; my group and I joke that it's cursed somehow. It does illustrate how a WK, specifically a wraithcannon one, can be very all-or-nothing.

I've found that my eldar are so fast and have so many movements that often times I can present my opponent with situations where they have 0 targets to shoot. That is why I dropped the WK. He is always visible.. so sure, he is a bullet magnet, but id rather fully deny my opponent shooting..

As I said, they are good, but I think a pure MSU eldar list is better without one than with one..

an example, what I am currently running:
pale host
Autarch
3x 6 hawks w exarch
2x Aspect host with 15 spiders in each
farseer
6x3 scatbike
2 vauls wrath d cannon
2x 1 vauls wrath d cannon

I tried the WK in that list and he just did not function well at all. Maybe I see more Grav/Warp Spiders/Storm Surges than other folks, but at any big event all 3 of those will be super common and all 3 remove the WK with really high efficiency. In a list with more psy buffs and other big priority targets (seers, warp hunters, lynx) I would probably take the WK. But if I go pure MSU, im not taking one for the foreseeable future.

P.S. if you do take one, take the Skathach with either the melta, if you require anti-tank, or the monofilament if you need more infantry killing.

I have very little anti-tank outside of the WK & Crimson Hunter exarch (and occasional Swooping Hawks + 1 unit of Dragons).
This is why I always take 1 WK. I also make a list without one for friendly games.

I used to take 2 when they were just MCs, but with their GMC status they insight a fair bit of rage and too much attention for their points. Most of my opponents either kill in in turn 1-2, or ignore it all game.

Recently I have been fielding a GK Nemesis Strike Force with my Eldar. 2 DKs add lots of anti-tank Psycannon shots and great CC protection for the rest of the army. They also draw lots of Grav fire away from the WK without having the price tag of the WK.