Miniature Market and Privateer Press Online Retailer Policy - Discount Reduced to 10% (Again)

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**Prestor Jon**

Dark Severance wrote:
These market changes are oddly dejavu for me. Back during the day of Napster, digital music was starting to break out and suddenly music sales are dropping. They all jumped on wagon blaming illegal downloads as the cause. While they fought that battle they failed to properly adapt to the growing changes in the market and by the time they started embracing selling/buying digital music and online music services... the impact already happened and they were too late. Yes I realize apples and oranges but they it is still relevant because we're talking about fruit (marketing/sales).

Online stores aren't strictly about the price. Saving money is great but it isn't that someone saves $5-$20 on something but the fact that they CAN buy it and delivered. It is about choice and convenience. I can go to my Local Game Store (LGS) with 10 things on my to-buy list and I will only find 2 of them. That is because 2 of those things are "new" and "hot" but the other 8 are stuff I've been waiting to buy but just haven't gotten around to it. Now I could buy those 2 things, then buy the other 8 online or I could buy all 10 of them online and skip going to the store at all. Price wasn't even the factor... it was all about availability.

Manufacturers, Publishers, Distributors, and Retailers do not fully understand or grasp the situation. They all say they want to help each other but they don't really. Yes there is organized play and there are organized play kits. These kits usually provide prizes, which is what draws people to the store. That is great! However simply being at the store doesn't translate to sales if they don't have what someone wants to buy especially since a good portion of purchases tend to be impulse.

For example this happens all the time with Magic. Someone thought they had a great deck but suddenly saw this idea that looked great. They can walk up to the counter and 80% of the time be able to buy the cards they need. With board and miniatures games, you are lucky to be able to walk to the counter and find 20% of what you want because it might not be the flavor of the month.

LGS can't simply just drop $10K into stock on items and hope it sells. They are reserved so they might take a chance on a couple things but most of the time they'll carry the top 10 sellers. They will probably only order 2-4 so they don't sit on the shelves for long periods of time. The idea is that if they don't have it, they can special order it. At this point convenience was lost to them. Someone was in the store and able to buy but it wasn't there. Why would they special order it when they can go to online?

What happens to stock that doesn't get sold? They lose money. Eventually they will discount it and hope it sells as they try to break even on it. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. The problem is they can't do anything with dead stock. They can't exchange it at equal dollar value they paid and if someone takes the return, there may or may not be a restocking fee. That hassle means when they order, they will be less likely to order cases and only a few. That means they will less likely take chances. Instead they wait for something to be hot, then stock it but by the time they do ... did they already lose out on sales?

Until manufacturers work with distributors to come up with a solution to lets LGS carry a wide variety of stock, but not carry the whole financial risk on themselves... this will not change anything.

I don't think manufacturers want LGS to carry a wide variety of stock. I think manufacturers want LGS to carry the biggest sellers and good introductory products and have consumers buy everything else direct from the manufacturers webstore at MSRP. Online discounters hurt manufacturers' direct webstore sales much more than they hurt the LGS. The LGS was never carrying all the products that the online discounter is carrying and never will. Helping the LGS is just a nice public relations spin on the real issue of manufacturers wanting to corner the market for online sales. Buying direct from the manufacturer at MSRP is the best outcome for manufacturers and online discounters are their biggest obstacle to that outcome. "Saving" brick and mortar stores is just the best way for them to get consumers to accept higher prices and the removal of online discoutners from the market.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

jmw23 wrote:
I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of this kind of behavior in the industry as time goes on. GW, PP, and Asmodee are just the beginning. If you believe that any of this has to do with supporting local game stores, you are fooling yourself.

The whole support your local FLGS is nothing more than a smokescreen - it's meant to guilt trip into supporting the 'little guy' against evil corporate interests.

It won't work on me, because bad FLGS deserve to go to the wall - I'll shed no tears for them, and I've known a few in my time.

If PP want to do a GW, then good luck to them. Personally, I couldn't give a damn about GW. Their treatment of hobbyists and their crazy prices and culture over the years, burnt too many bridges with me. I have a ton of better companies to choose from.

As for PP, I've never bought any of their products in my life, and I'm less inclined to now with this announcement.

**Dark Severance**

Prestor Jon wrote:
I don't think manufacturers want LGS to carry a wide variety of stock. I think manufacturers want LGS to carry the biggest sellers and good introductory products and have consumers buy everything else direct from the manufacturers webstore at MSRP.

You are correct that is ultimately what miniatures companies would want. Buying directly from them means they cut the distributor out and can pocket the full markup margin. I was being general because I included board games as well because this was a 'popular topic' the past couple years at Origins and GenCon amongst game companies. It is often a common complaint brought to them by LGS that online sales is hurting their business and what can they do about it.

Miniatures manufacturers however will have to adapt because they can't expect people to buy directly from them. Honestly I can't even remember the first time I've bought directly from large companies. I understand what they want with their smoke and mirrors and trying to say they are helping LGS... but the reality is they aren't.

**doktor_g**

FLGS 100%. Here with very few exceptions. Perry Direct purchase. 15 Chinese Meganobz. Long live the FLGS!

**Buzzsaw**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Sounds to me like PP costs 66% more than it should, then.

This. As I said before in the thread, the biggest problem with the logic of "we're being undercut, that's why we can't sell at MSRP!" is that it presumes that there is a large group of people that would be willing to buy PP stuff at MSRP.

PP simply isn't selling a product (in many cases) that is worth the price they are demanding for it. That's my opinion and so I either 1) buy when the product has been sufficiently discounted to meet its quality, or 2) simply don't buy.

**Prestor Jon**

Dark Severance wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
I don't think manufacturers want LGS to carry a wide variety of stock. I think manufacturers want LGS to carry the biggest sellers and good introductory products and have consumers buy everything else direct from the manufacturers webstore at MSRP.
You are correct that is ultimately what miniatures companies would want. Buying directly from them means they cut the distributor out and can pocket the full markup margin. I was being general because I included board games as well because this was a 'popular topic' the past couple years at Origins and GenCon amongst game companies. It is often a common complaint brought to them by LGS that online sales is hurting their business and what can they do about it.

Miniatures manufacturers however will have to adapt because they can't expect people to buy directly from them. Honestly I can't even remember the first time I've bought directly from large companies. I understand what they want with their smoke and mirrors and trying to say they are helping LGS... but the reality is they aren't.

I haven't bought much from big companies in years either. With limited hobby time and budget I find myself taking the time to find exactly what I want which typically leads me to purchase from a small company or sculptor's webstore or back a KS. I think the hobby is going to keep moving towards having niches within niches which helps people find what they want but makes it harder for a brick and mortar store to know what to stock outside of the handful of widely popular games. In that regard I think Kickstarter is a bigger threat to the LGS than online discounters but KS is much less of a threat to manufacturers as we see plenty of manufacturers using KS.

**Wehrkind**

Talys wrote:

I get where you're coming from, and there are many parallels in other, larger industries like technology (Best Buy) and books (B&N, Chapters). In many cases, online is simply much more efficient. There is a danger for consumers to this, however. In the short term, sure, we benefit from prices being lower online as compared to brick and mortar prices that we're used to. However, in the long term, as B&M's go out of business, the online price with the lower margin slowly becomes the only price, and then, the manufacturers have no incentive to support any middlemen -- they'll just sell directly (or through an intermediate like Amazon) to the customer, and make a little bit more. Sounds good, right? Cut out the 50% in the middle, and all that. But once we get used to that, they can slowly inflate the prices, and because these are such niche markets, they'll be able to get away with it.

This is why that while I want to buy my product as cheaply as possible, I don't really have a problem with PP or GW discouraging a "race to the bottom" for prices, because in the long run (years and decades), I don't think it will be helpful for prices from a purely personal, selfish point of view.

I think your idea of the plan that GW/PP have is correct, but I think the outcome is going to be very different than what you, and GW/PP, expect.

It is very optimistic for them to believe that they will be able to cut out the middle men and raise the price without anyone having recourse. Say best case scenario is PP removes all other retailers and is the only one selling their products** anywhere. They now have a retail monopoly on PP games and models. They can raise their prices, and no one will be able to get PP models and games for less than that. No competition!

Except they do have competition, in the form of every other manufacturer out there, every other hobby/game system, and frankly every recaster. So people start using other models to play Warmahordes, or another very similar game system pops up that offers roughly the same experience for 1/10th the price. (Hi, Mantic; have you met PP?) Or people decide that PP games just aren't worth it any try other stuff and never come back. Or buy a new Playstation. Or buy chinese knock-offs.
So PP can increase their prices and can monopolize their product sales away from 3rd parties, but the result is that they will lose customers. It might work out that they make more money off fewer sales and so are ok with this state of affairs, but more likely they will shed customers and lose money in the process. Especially considering that the learning curve for Warmahordes is REALLY steep compared to GW games, so relying on player churn like GW seems to is less of an option. (Also, PP models are not as nice as most GW stuff, for certain values of "nice.")

This becomes even less likely to work out into higher prices when you consider that we got there by the method of racing to the bottom. People are going to get used to lower prices, and sellers are going to get used to working with lower margins. That makes both the demand and the supply side of the world much less willing to accept price increases. If people get used to paying 3$ per model they are going to balk at paying 10$, and vendors and makers of their own games are going to see a big opportunity there. Particularly if they can make better models, which is pretty clearly the case.

So really, I don't think that the long term effects of "race to the bottom" pricing will be higher prices for miniatures and games. It might mean that some games become more expensive and less played, but the over all game market will likely see lower pricing across the board. Especially if game companies want to access the huge volumes available though Amazon etc. GW and PP might want to be a niche like Kingdom Death is a niche, but I suspect they will both find that a hard niche to survive in.

** They could do this right this second by dropping the prices on their web store to wholesale, 66% off MSRP (well, and selling all their stuff on it). Or they could raise wholesale to 75% of MSRP or whatever. Why don't they do that?

**TheWaspinator**

It's not exactly helping my opinion of PP on this matter that they're squashing all attempts to talk about it on their forums.

**spiralingcadaver**

TheWaspinator wrote:
It's not exactly helping my opinion of PP on this matter that they're squashing all attempts to talk about it on their forums.

That's been my experience of their forums since day 1...

And yeah, the point about people not being willing to spend MSRP is a good one, I think.

**Manchu**

Some of you may recall that this is exactly how GW's online presence spiraled into oblivion.

**Binabik15**

Months ago my go to online store here in Germany stopped getting their usual terms from Ulysis who distribute WarmaHordes here, despite having tables AND hosting WarmaHordes events. They dropped the ranges (as in, didn't reorder anything). I haven't bought a PP product since then.

This statement would have me considering that as well if I wasn't out at the moment, anyway. I don't HAVE a FLGS. There's A store in my city, but I rarely go there. I want to play, as rare as it is at home with friends and family. Playing strangers doesn't appeal to me. Their offerings are rather slim for minis as well, much more RPG stuff there. I buy a paint from them every now and then, but the rest I get online where I can browse dozens of different ranges and take days or weeks to decide what I want.

PS: They have a copy of Dreadfleet though if anyone is interested

**gungo**

Manchu wrote:
Some of you may recall that this is exactly how GW's online presence spiraled into oblivion.

What? GW online presence is fine it's my primary form of purchasing disregarding flgs impulse buys. And I can still get 25% off online with GW products with free shipping.

Just because GW doesn't allow online retailers to advertise doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Let's not forget GW tankshock campaign is really only for flgs and not GW retail stores and it's only purpose is to promote flgs sales. They even gave the flgs extra discounts so they can make more profit.

Now GW just needs to promote thier retail outlets by selling FW books and allowing the GW stores to order FW stock. So people will go to the store for pickups and save money by not paying shipping fees.

**Manchu**

gungo wrote:
GW online presence

Whoa there, hold up - I meant their web forum, not the fact that they are an online retailer ... who passes no savings from circumventing the middle men on to their customers, by the way.

**Ketara**

In all fairness, GW is also the middleman in their supply chain, as they also operate an extensive retail chain.

**lord_blackfang**

jmw23 wrote:
I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of this kind of behavior in the industry as time goes on. GW, PP, and Asmodee are just the beginning. If you believe that any of this has to do with supporting local game stores, you are fooling yourself.

I just remembered the first instance I've seen - Battlefront Miniatures (FoW) has always enforced a 10% discount limit and broke off all trading with Maelstrom Games over breaching this limit.

**Manchu**

Ketara wrote:
In all fairness, GW is also the middleman in their supply chain, as they also operate an extensive retail chain.

True enough - although in the US their retail practices have actually only damaged communities of gamers in recent years by undercutting any LGS in the area. They would come in, set up close to a LGS, then disappear after a little while.

Plus this just gets back to the problem of me having to pay for GW to sell games to other people.

**Korraz**

lord_blackfang wrote:
jmw23 wrote:
I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of this kind of behavior in the industry as time goes on. GW, PP, and Asmodee are just the beginning. If you believe that any of this has to do with supporting local game stores, you are fooling yourself.

I just remembered the first instance I've seen - Battlefront Miniatures (FoW) has always enforced a 10% discount limit and broke off all trading with Maelstrom Games over breaching this limit.

Getting mentioned in the same sentence as Battlefront Miniatures or Games Workshop isn't exactly something any company should strive for

**Red Harvest**

Manchu wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
If anything, maybe it's a good time for the US to start adopting / considering the EU/UK trend of gaming clubs.
This is my dream model but I doubt it will ever take in the US.

It did exist in the US, mainly for, if not exclusively for, Historicals. This would be back in the '60's and '70s. It may still exist. There was, and may still be, a 40k club in Northern Va called the Iron Fist League.

A club system may well make a re-appearance. I see a lot of use of things like Google groups being used as pseudo-clubs. I think we will see something club-like evolve here in the US.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Sounds to me like PP costs 66% more than it should, then.

That is what the market seems to think. PP seems to think differently. This sort of disagreement rarely ends well for the producer, unless said producer gets Uncle Sam to step in and protect them.

If consumers cannot get the product at a price they feel is worth paying, what then of PP?

Talys wrote:
I get where you're coming from, and there are many parallels in other, larger industries like technology (Best Buy) and books (B&N, Chapters). In many cases, online is simply much more efficient. There is a danger for consumers to this, however. In the short term, sure, we benefit from prices being lower online as compared to brick and mortar prices that we're used to. However, in the long term, as B&M's go out of business, the online price with the lower margin slowly becomes the only price, and then, the manufacturers have no incentive to support any middlemen -- they'll just sell directly (or through an intermediate like Amazon) to the customer, and make a little bit more. Sounds good, right? Cut out the 50% in the middle, and all that. But once we get used to that, they can slowly inflate the prices, and because these are such niche markets, they'll be able to get away with it.

This is why that while I want to buy my product as cheaply as possible, I don't really have a problem with PP or GW discouraging a "race to the bottom" for prices, because in the long run (years and decades), I don't think it will be helpful for prices from a purely personal, selfish point of view.

I generally agree that B&M hobby/gaming shops are having a much harder time with miniature games than they used to. With comic books, too, which many of these stores sell. On the other hand, I wouldn't call them a failing or failed industry, principally because of collectible card games. These are just huge sellers, highly profitable, and work really well in a retail environment. Singles are better sold in a physical store, because condition matters, and shipping is an issue (or risk) if you want one card.

Also, they're very conducive to play in a store, whereas some miniature-based games are just a pain to transport (cough 40k cough), and the social experience is made even easier by extremely short games with no setup time.

Ah, the slippery slope fallacy in all its glory. Or Conspiracy Theory 101.

The current LGS business model is ailing, and will eventually fail. Something will arise to replace it-- that whole creative destruction thing Schumpeter wrote about. Consumers should always look for the best bargain for their money. Always.

Games Stores are not hated. Eleemosynary Game Stores are hated. Poorly run game stores are hated. Running a Games Store is work, hard work. The store owners that put in the work will adapt and succeed, and I wish them well. The others, let them sink. Something better will replace them, eventually, if there is a demand.

**Cruentus**

lord_blackfang wrote:
jmw23 wrote:
I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of this kind of behavior in the industry as time goes on. GW, PP, and Asmodee are just the beginning. If you believe that any of this has to do with supporting local game stores, you are fooling yourself.

I just remembered the first instance I've seen - Battlefront Miniatures (FoW) has always enforced a 10% discount limit and broke off all trading with Maelstrom Games over breaching this limit.

Don't forget Hawk Wargames. Iirc, they only allow a 10% discount online as well. So, its really just this practice growing...

And for me, its all about convenience. I have 5-6 LGS within an hour of me, and I infrequently stop by one or two to get paints, or the odd browse purchase. The rest of the time I'm buying online for the convenience - none of the shops around carry Perry metals, or Artizan, or Knuckleduster. So I'll also buy my 40k or 30k online while I'm getting my other stuff.

**Sigvatr**

The issue with FLGS and the distance from home to the store itself has already been adressed, but there's more than just convenience: money, i.e. additional cost

Most online retailers ship for free after a certain threshold is met (well...if you pay more than 50€, often; Amazon is 29+€ or free for Prime) and postage usually doesn't exceed a few € (3€-7€). Now...you still need to get to your local store. If you live close to it and you can just walk or ride ya bike, awesome. If you gotta go there by public transportation, you either have a monthly ticket (awesome) or have to pay for two direction which, in Germany, would be 5-7€ in total, adding to your shopping cost. You see where I'm getting. Drive by car and you gotta pay for fuel and a parking ticket (1,50-3€ / hour) or get lucky and live in a smaller city.

It's not a limiting factor, especially not for many, but cost definitely starts becoming important for some people, it's not just about convenience.

**ced1106**

Red Harvest wrote:
A club system may well make a re-appearance. I see a lot of use of things like Google groups being used as pseudo-clubs. I think we will see something club-like evolve here in the US.

Closest thing to public events I've found in the San Francisco Bay Area have been Meetups and some older Yahoo Groups mailing lists. However, it's all for Eurogames and the occasional Ameritrash game. It's not for "lifestyle" games, such as miniature wargaming, RPGs, or CCGs. CCGs are taken care of by the FLGS's. RPGs have a unique situation in that most RPG groups have a maximum number of players in a group, making them tricky as public events (although you can find organized D&D and Pathfinder play through some FLGS;s and conventions). FLGS and conventions are the only public ways I know of to play miniature wargames. But, sure, I'd like to know more about clubs for miniatures wargaming and how they attract members, etc.

Thanks calling out the fallacy of the slippery slope. Amazon was founded in 1994, meaning it's had *twenty* years to destroy the b&m bookstore business. Television hasn't kept us from seeing films, and films haven't stopped us (well, not you) from attending plays. Email hasn't kept us (or at least my Mom) from writing holiday cards. Tablets and the internet hasn't kept us from newspapers, magazines, or books. An old technology or business model doesn't entirely go away when the new one is 98% better, if there's enough market for that 2% to survive. Some people *still* like to go to bookstores, some still like plays, some still like dead trees, and some still write sappy greeting cards.

As an aside, as a survivor of the 1980's comics glut, then the 1990's CCG glut, I've noticed that, while a market shrinks, its may only shrink down to a few major players, particularly for "lifestyle" games, which require a "critical mass" of many players to remain sustainable. (Sorta like "tail theory" without the tail.) So while you may like Mythos CCG more than Magic, you still end up playing Magic (or playing Pathfinder when you prefer Middle Earth) because everyone else in the market is playing it as well. So while the market (ie. us) doesn't entirely disappear, publishers (like PP) may do so, as the market slowly contracts. Insert GW's new policies here.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Cruentus wrote:

Don't forget Hawk Wargames. Iirc, they only allow a 10% discount online as well. So, its really just this practice growing...

What? I didn't know that. Now I feel a little badly for supporting their kickstarter. I guess I'll make sure to wait until MM BF or Amazon blowouts instead of ordering their stuff at the flgs.

**Crimson Devil**

Okay, so Games Workshop, Privateer Press, Battle Front, Mantic, and Hawk Wargames are all bad guys. What games do you guys actually play at this point? Which companies has met your purity tests?

**TwilightSparkles**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Cruentus wrote:

Don't forget Hawk Wargames. Iirc, they only allow a 10% discount online as well. So, its really just this practice growing...

What? I didn't know that. Now I feel a little badly for supporting their kickstarter. I guess I'll make sure to wait until MM BF or Amazon blowouts instead of ordering their stuff at the flgs.

One of the main UK online sellers offers 20% openly, as do at least several others. On the whole Hawk range.

With regards Privateer, when I started a few years ago Warmachine seemed pretty cheap compared to bad ol GW, now it's pretty much the same but with hardly any retail support near me. Whereas GW stockists have ballooned and there are 3 clubs near me all primarily for GW. Cycles eh?

**overtyrant**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Cruentus wrote:

Don't forget Hawk Wargames. Iirc, they only allow a 10% discount online as well. So, its really just this practice growing...

What? I didn't know that. Now I feel a little badly for supporting their kickstarter. I guess I'll make sure to wait until MM BF or Amazon blowouts instead of ordering their stuff at the flgs.

Why? They went to Kickstarter to Kickstart their Dropfleet Commander range, not to screw over stores and steel everyones money.

**Sidstyler**

He doesn't feel bad about giving them money via Kickstarter, he feels bad about not being able to get a big enough discount on the models when they hit retail.

So he basically doesn't give a crap about the FLGS in either case.

**Sigvatr**

Crimson Devil wrote:
Okay, so Games Workshop, Privateer Press, Battle Front, Mantic, and Hawk Wargames are all bad guys. What games do you guys actually play at this point? Which companies has met your purity tests?

FFG

**Shieldwolf Miniatures**

Smellingsalts wrote:

Spoiler:

TalonZahn wrote:
I'm always slightly confused by the FLGS vs. "Online" store arguments when it comes to the "resources" comparison.

I've been to the physical location of Miniatures Market. I have never in my life seen a "physical" hobby store with that much space or personnel. Their costs for lights, heat, A/C, employees, and all the other things mentioned, absolutely have to far out-strip any FLGS.

I'm guessing the response will be volume and variety is how they can cut so low, like say... Walmart.

I'm also aware that there are some online discounters that are 1-2 man operations. The big movers and shakers in the online space are not these guys.

I also believe it's Battlefront (?) that requires anyone selling onlien to have a physical store to sell their products. PP could move to something like that, which will levle the field more, and in a more sensible way.

With all due respect, costs are regional.

This.
An online retailer, can rent a warehouse that is in the middle of nowhere; a FLGS has to be accessible and central. This always costs more.
An online retailer can put the simplest of the dexion shelving; a FLGS has to maintain a totally different environment that does not look like a warehouse and instead inspires gameplay. This always costs more.
An online retailer can work with little to no stock; a FLGS has to maintain constant stock and also base a percentage of his regular income from 'spontaneous' sales. This always costs more.
An online retailer can work during any hours he pleases; a FLGS has to work during precise working hours, and often sacrifice Saturdays and Sundays for the sake of events, thus wages go up. This always (you guessed it!) costs more.

On-line retailers are great and offer access to miniatures many people would never have had. But FLGS must be supported for the sake of the hobby itself, not only as businesses. The way to do this... well, it's messy and tricky.
Ultimately the gamers and the community as a whole need both!

hotsauceman1 wrote:
the best way, Iin my experiance and my opinion to make a game grow and have them buy from you? Events for the game they play, more tournaments, more game nights, more of everything, it shows you care about them more past their $$$$, the problem is that how most FLGS people see their customers, as walking wallets.

A business has to make money, it will not survive otherwise. I fully comprehend FLGSs feeling the threat/heat of "online only" vendors.
And btw, apologies but I fail to follow, where exactly would you host these events in, with e.g. 50 people and, I don't know, let's say Paris, if all FLGS are closed down? And who would run that event?

Smellingsalts wrote:
The only thing that may have been more fair would have been to set the discounting limit.

That's not a way to regulate online discounters however, at least not from our point of view. The example you state above would also be illegal in Greece (just like refusing sales as I wrote prior to this).
The only ways we have found to regulate discounts is allowing limited orders (due to capacity restrictions, that is not against the law here) and/or simply not dealing with some distributors. We would have had twice the list (if not even triple!) of available distributors/retailers that carry our line had we caved in to the demands many of them had (some of them reputed to be very very big -if not the largest- in our industry). Tut mir leid, we will live without you...

**Sigvatr**

Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:

On-line retailers are great and offer access to miniatures many people would never have had. But FLGS must be supported for the sake of the hobby itself, not only as businesses.

Why? They /are/ a business. If they cannot make plaers /want/ to go and buy there and thus be profitable, then they are not doing a good job. As the UK and EU show, they aren't necessary at all. If you want to play a tabletop game with others you can meetup via Facebook, forums, reddit etc. to get a group in your area and meet at someone's home to play or even have your own space. Where is the need for a FLGS?

FLGS are just that: LGS. If they cannot catch up with online retailers, then sorry, but you need a new job.

Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
where exactly would you host these events in, with e.g. 50 people and, I don't know, let's say Paris, if all FLGS are closed down? And who would run that event?

At home if you got a big house, in your garage, you can locally rent a place, either for a longer time or for just a day at very low cost; churches for example, in Germany, can be rented as they usually have very large community rooms. Dirt cheap might I add. My wife and I have been running tournaments for many years now - and granted, we are wealthy and can afford supporting a home for three gaming clubs in an actual rented apartment, but even your regular guy can do this.

**Shieldwolf Miniatures**

@Sivatr
FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential.
If you don't agree with that, we will politely agree to disagree. :-)

As for the gaming in house and hosting 50 people in a garage or a house, I'm not saying it's not doable but is easier said than done.
And things in Germany might be different but if I ever went to one of the local churches and asked them to stage an event with toy soldiers shooting arrows and butchering each other... yeah, priest would most probably look at me like I owed him money (or some type of similar glance)