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miniature market is also a brick and mortar, you can go there and buy just as easily as getting it online.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Like I said earlier, a lot of bookshops went under, and Amazon got blamed, but the good bookshops thrived, and offer things that the big boys could never offer.

That analogy is different Bookshops have every right to blame Amazon, not only do they cut overheads they also get away with not paying tax.
Honest business cant compete with that, and not just with selling books. Jessops went under because of competition from online retailers, particularly Amazon.

Amazon are not only able to undercut store based retailers, through their size and tax avoidance methods they are also able to undercut most online retailers also.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3139123/Amazon-pays-just-11-9m-tax-5-3bn-worth-UK-sales.html
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/18/revealed-project-goldcrest-amazon-avoid-huge-sums-tax

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

There are a ton of good ideas out there to let FLGS thrive.

This however is very true. I have seen FLGS thrive even under todays economic climate because they didn't miss out on the F part. Have a local community store that the local community likes and members of the local community will want to give you business to keep you in business, even to the point of mail ordering via the retailer rather than going elsewhere or doing it yourself for less.

@silent25

PP already said they have no right to do that. Good luck walking it back.

 Manchu wrote:
@silent25

PP already said they have no right to do that. Good luck walking it back.

And give the tone, grammar, and general misinformation in their letter, you think they wouldn't?

 silent25 wrote:
With Miniature Market, it's clear they have the go ahead from their distributor. They must make up enough of that distributor's sales with PP items that it isn't worried about other stores dropping them because of the delays. But here's the rub, MM becomes the only buyer from this distributor, PP can escalate things and cut off the distributor.

But that's not happening.. Chaosorc.com doesn't seem to plan to capitulate. They responded with a 30% sale on PP items. I think the only way for meaningful kickback though is for the retailers to get organized and arrange to hurt PP's wallet. PP is trying to have the tail wag the dog. Frankly, I think the FLGS and the online retailers should all be furious and united on this because it sends the message the PP gets to dictate their business practices through strong arm tactics. The truth is, PP needs these various outlets, not the other way round.

They're already hurting PP's wallet by running yet another Magic tournament instead of a PP one. Welcome to the 20th Century, PP!

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Okay, so Games Workshop, Privateer Press, Battle Front, Mantic, and Hawk Wargames are all bad guys. What games do you guys actually play at this point? Which companies has met your purity tests?

It's been nearly a week. After reading through this thread I really want to see an answer to this.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Okay, so Games Workshop, Privateer Press, Battle Front, Mantic, and Hawk Wargames are all bad guys. What games do you guys actually play at this point? Which companies has met your purity tests?

It's been nearly a week. After reading through this thread I really want to see an answer to this.

The answer would be that "you guys" is more than one person, and each person's answer would be different.

Doesn't change the question, if everyone is saying they are no longer going to support PP, what company are they supporting, if any?

Crimson Devil has a good point.

I play boardgames, so have the luxury of not being wed to any "lifestyle" game, as well as the opportunity to play in many more places than miniature wargamers.

MM passes my purity test. Or at least my wallet's! While PP is only delaying product, ANA (Asmodee North America, aka. Fantasy Flight Games) is raising prices for online stores (I think less to help the FLGS than to get into the Big Box stores, off- and online). But that only helps the competition, and during MM's sale, I picked up CMON and Paizo boardgames, rather than FFG. A friend of mine still bought a FFG as he piggybacked on my order.

As for miniature games, I come from an RPG background, where you didn't use "proprietary" miniatures for a ruleset. So I'm looking at games by companies like Ganesha Games, Two Hour Wargames, and other companies that let me use *my* own miniatures. While companies may be forcing you to pay more for their games, nobody can force you to only buy *their* games. So long as they're not also clubbing seals, eating babies, or letting the terrorists win, I'll support any business, be it a game publisher or game store, that gives me the best prices for their products and services.

To take a stab at it, I don't see my opinion of a company as a binary "good/bad"; it's a spectrum that influences under what circumstances I will buy things they produce. For example, my opinion of GW's corporate policies is quite low, and thus I do not buy from them without serious compelling interest. Mantic and Battlefront are both capable of mind-boggling logistical incompetence, but if I want a product of their's I simply adjust how/where I buy it to account for that lack of trust. Dreamforge and Kingdom Death have both turned out fantastic products, so I would likely buy from them unreservedly at the moment. If they did something injurious to consumers that would likely cause me to adjust my buying habits, but they still are in the "made good on promises" camp. While not a manufacturer, I'd buy from MM in a heartbeat, because I know they're going to look after me as a customer because they have done so without hassle.

PP is a red herring for me in the equation; I've only ever bought a rulebook from them and just didn't care for the background nor the models over much. That makes this latest move of theirs more of an aggravating factor on why they're in the "do not buy from" end of the spectrum. However, as a consumer I do not like the idea that any company feels it can dictate the manner in which I can buy their product once they've sold them out into a distribution channel. IMO, if you want that level of control on your products then pony up the resources to be the direct supplier. PP can't, as they lack the market share and probably resources, so this is their attempt to eat their cake and have it too while they work towards that goal.

Thimn wrote:
Doesn't change the question, if everyone is saying they are no longer going to support PP, what company are they supporting, if any?

Crimson Devil has a good point.

Considering even the "devil" GW is making baby steps towards fixing some of their ills (things like the Start Collecting boxes at deep discounts, dipping their toes back into Organized Play kits, supporting long dead games), I will gladly support a company even trying to turn things around, versus a band of donkey-caves on a death-spiral like PP. I cannot state enough how much ire they earned from me with the unprofessional way they wrote that press-release. It has to say something about a company culture when something like that makes it into an official, public, statement.

Meanwhile, a mountain of "indie" games from This is not a Test, to Frostgrave, to dozens of others are all proving more worth my time and money. I'll gladly pay a premium, and support "the little guy" when I don't feel like I am being bullied into it.

Wait a second, How is PP considered worse than GW? They will still allow online sales, When they release their all-in-ones they are at a good discount, they actively promote tournament play and have good rules. You really have lost me on how PP is the worse of the 2 companies.

Probably more their attitude. The infamous page 5, this, etc.

GW is trying to turn it around, while PP seems to be following in GWs old footsteps.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Probably more their attitude. The infamous page 5, this, etc.

GW is trying to turn it around, while PP seems to be following in GWs old footsteps.

Exactly. Do people think this was a fluke, and PP is going to now become less passive-aggressive, and just settle into being the happy overlords of FLGS? This is clearly a step in a campaign to change other things we haven't seen yet.

With many game stores citing the volume of SKUs required, etc... I fully expect to see models start sneaking off to direct sales... You know, the very route GW took which (rightly) began their villification.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Probably more their attitude. The infamous page 5, this, etc.

GW is trying to turn it around, while PP seems to be following in GWs old footsteps.

Exalt.

GW is now trying to climb out of the rabbit hole, PP seems determined to jump in with both feet. GW only survived it's errors by dint of it's size but it suffered for them. PP is a damned sight smaller...

GW being its own distributor also means there is not much anyone can do about their policies. By contrast, MM has effectively told PP to sit and spin.

Privateer Press really look like they have no viable PR department.

It is understandable that supporting the FLGS is important to see growth in the gaming community and hopefully the bottom line.
They should be doing the opposite of whatever model they are doing: if a store shows "X" amount of gaming space available they get the discount and preferred early shipment.

Done.

The name calling we are seeing here and vilifying large online distribution groups that sell your product looks like a self defeating strategy.

Heck, you could sell "special edition" packages only at locations that have gaming space available.
Tournament packages with extras... you get the idea.

More carrot, less stick guys, really now.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Probably more their attitude. The infamous page 5, this, etc.

GW is trying to turn it around, while PP seems to be following in GWs old footsteps.

PP is saying they'll delay your shipments (for an apparently undetermined amount of time since I haven't seen anything from them about exactly how long posted...just speculation and guesses)... GW has said for years and carried through their threat to just cut retailers off completely. Is the PP policy a douch move? Absolutely! But objectively it still pales in comparison with GW has done for years and CONTINUES to do. Their recent rollback of OTHER douche moves by reintroducing bulk discounts in faction starters doesn't mean that they've softened their stance towards retailers. GW's not trying at all to "turn it around" in regards to how and where you shop. They'll still cull any store they feel violates their policies, they'll still open up a retail outlet right next to a successful FLGS whenever they feel like it, they'll still disallow any normal online sales AT ALL, and they'll still discontinue or move to direct only hundreds of SKU's which removes them from most retailers except them effectively due to the pricing structure. PP's recent douch move pales in comparison to GW's long standing practices that haven't changed at all with their recent budge in the more friendly direction. GW's "turning it around", while better than nothing, is simply 2-3 steps forward after a 10k run backward.

Don't be fooled by GW finally getting back around to more economical faction starters and plastic board games again... nothing they've done has softened their dictatorial stance towards dictating exactly how they'll "allow" both retailers and consumers to get their products. PP (and to a greater extent FFG) are simply taking the first baby steps towards GW levels of CURRENT douchebaggery.

GW is a vile, terrible person who looks like Scarlet Johannsen. PP is just a big douche who looks like Ted Cruz.

If GW did not produce some amazing models, no one would buy from them. I personally dislike everything about their business and the people currently running it, but when they squatcanned Tomb Kings I had to run out and buy a Necrosphinx because that is one damn gorgeous model. I've bought and assembled a dozen PP products over the years, and never had close to the same level of enjoyment from them. Combine this with weaker fluff, page 5 attitude, and an absolute bottom tier customer service experience, and I doubt I would ever buy anything of theirs again. Maybe a HIPS mini at rock bottom prices just to see how it goes together.

I have to say, I fall somewhere in the middle of all of this with my opinion. I agree that PP product is devalued all to hell and they need to do something about it, but at the same time that company is managed by individuals that have acted like asshats for years, and lost my loyalty a long time ago because of it.

Ultimately, I think of it like this:

PP has been the "underdog" 'Murikan company for a long time, but in the recent years it's become comfortable in its position at the top of that particular pile. While their game is good, and their miniatures great-to-decent, their attitude has always been "I'm a badass, who are you? Who cares who you are." Their customer service has always been absolute crap, as well. Needing something replaced, fixed, whatever has always resulted in a frustrating, takes-way-too-long process of waiting for responses and then those responses being unsatisfactory.

GW, on the other hand, has been around for a long time, and sat at the top for a lot of that time. They've changed up business tactics a plethora of times through the years, and their evolution in their product tells the tale of their age. They create a product that they, typically, sell at a premium price. However, as far as customer service goes, they have always been amazing. Polite, friendly replies to e-mails usually on the same day you send an issue, or a courteous individual on the other end of the phone, and they go over the top with fixing what was wrong.

Say what you will about PP's products, but their people have always acted trashy.

Ya, GW's stuff is sooo good. Not only the quality but the sheer amount of extra stuff that comes on the sprues alone. I dont see why that is not brought up more often. People complain about the prices so much, but when I buy a 10man troll unit, thats it. I get a couple different poses. That same 10man unit might cost $10-$20 more from GW but it usually comes packed with extra little bits. Prime example, I bought the new Rok model for $40, thats it, it was a small resin/metal/some other plastic, model. I bought the Thanquol & Boneripper for $68, I got multiple different head/weapon options, plus lots of extra bits.

I dislike AoS, but when I wanna paint I go buy quality. PP cant hold that above peoples heads. If I go to a LGS im buying a GW plastic blister pack for $25, if I need PP items i'll order them online.

EDIT: I am hearing alot of good stuff about Guild Ball, whats the general census on that?

 silent25 wrote:
With Miniature Market, it's clear they have the go ahead from their distributor. They must make up enough of that distributor's sales with PP items that it isn't worried about other stores dropping them because of the delays. But here's the rub, MM becomes the only buyer from this distributor, PP can escalate things and cut off the distributor.

The distributor is Alliance Games, which is owned by Diamond. I'm not sure how well it would work out for PP if a couple of the big distributors decided to get miffed about a smaller company trying to tell them what to do.

Did anyone else notice that PP didn't release this statement until after the WW KS was over?

 Ketara wrote:
It may well be the case that the High Street can no longer support the average FLGS, and if so, there is nothing PP can do about it.

In the US at least, the "High Street" (big shopping malls and high rent retail areas) never supported our FLGS. GW tried to break into those venues, but most of the ones in my area could not make a go of it and ended up closing (often after driving the true FLGS out of business). In the US our FLGS tend to be in lower rent areas, like strip malls or old downtown areas after all the former businesses moved out to the big shopping malls.

The only thing that survives in my area is shops that host card games. We get the occasional 40K tournament, and I just recently found a place that has a good PP group, but I think thats more the group than the LGS, as they bounce between locations to accommodate travel distance for members.

Chopxsticks wrote:
Ya, GW's stuff is sooo good. Not only the quality but the sheer amount of extra stuff that comes on the sprues alone. I dont see why that is not brought up more often.

Its actually brought up as a defense for GW all the time.

I guess it gets buried under all the rage text of their prices and the amount of spikes and skulls they put on stuff.

Chopxsticks wrote:
I guess it gets buried under all the rage text of their prices and the amount of spikes and skulls they put on stuff.

It's also pretty much irrelevant; the extra bits don't really let you do any more with the kit beyond some customization. You don't get any more mini's in it, just more heads, so the value is pretty limited.

I 107% disagree on this one. Its not just heads. I'll start with the GW's Giant kit, its several heads, several hands, and alot of cool stuff to hang off your model. I plan on hanging that Cow off my Mountain King. Ogre Kingdoms also come with an insane amount o extra's. I have a tiny goat with a cork in its mouth that I have on my Rok model. The value stretches out beyond just the unit and models the bits came with. That's the thing.