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In several weeks I'm up against one of the most experienced players in the club. He's sporting an army of shiny Eqyptian robot mummies, and I'm a BA player.

It'll be a relatively friendly game, but supposedly he rarely loses. And I'm sure he'll be keen to keep that going.

It'll be a 2,000 point game, but that's all I know for now. And I have no idea what he'll be using. As far as I can tell from watching him play, he typically shoots the crap out of everything. So I'm guessing I'll have to get into CC as soon as possible.

I'm thinking of using the following:

HQ
Mephiston
Chaplain with JP, Inferno pistol and Crozius

ELITES
15 DC (no JP) with 2 PF, 4 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, 2 inferno pistols.
5 DC with JP with 1 PF, 2 power weapons, 1 plasma, 1 inferno
1 Furioso with Blood talons & Lucius Drop pod

TROOPS
Rafen's DC with JP
Moriar Dred with Lucius Drop pod

HEAVY SUPPORT
Land Raider Crusader (for Mephiston and 15 DC)
Either a Devastator squad with PC or a Predator Annihilator with las, las and more las.

Verdict?

The Land Raider will be a wreck on turn 1, don't waste your points on (expensive) vehicles against Necrons.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
The Land Raider will be a wreck on turn 1, don't waste your points on (expensive) vehicles against Necrons.

What's the alternative, let my DC trudge across the board?

There's usually plenty of terrain in play so I'll utilise cover saves if possible.

Jump packs and cover.
Drop pods? Rhinos? Aren't BA Rhinos fast?

 Griddlelol wrote:
Jump packs and cover.
Drop pods? Rhinos? Aren't BA Rhinos fast?

Yes but I can't assault out of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes they are, but I can't assault from them. So they'd have to stand around for a turn.

Way too much gear on the DC. Keep them cheap and fast.

Martel732 wrote:
Way too much gear on the DC. Keep them cheap and fast.

Fair enough.

I only have a limited number of DC to choose from, so I'm having to field what I have. And I never stick the LR in the open so it can be shot to pieces. I always use cover.

Never use LRs. Ever. They are just about the worst thing in the codex. They immobilize themselves on a shrub.

Land Raiders are garbage, and Necrons make them into garbage even more.

Inferno and Plasma Pistols are also terrible.
The most you want on death Company is 1 Fist per 5 dudes and Jump Packs. If you go overboard, they're dying just like regular Marines for the price you're paying.

You're also going to NEED Grav Bikers. The Necrons have no bad targets for them.

But they still get cover and RP against grav, so I don't think it's mandatory at all. Grav guns are highly overrated. Grav cannons are were its at.

Necrons won't table you like Tau or Eldar, but BA have precious little hope against them. BA just can't cause enough wounds.

-Land raiders are even worse than bad against crons.
-Your DC are overloaded with wargear. Jump packs and the occasional fist are all they need. Special pistols are a terrible waste of points. You've got over 100 points tied up in them. That could be more bodies.
-whirlwinds are awkwardly good heavy supports for their low cost against crons. Just the right AP value for warriors and able to fire from far outside gauss range. Cheap enough that concentrating gauss fire on them for a kill is inefficient use of force for the crons.
-Mephy is neat on paper and in casual games, but it's really hard to find him a squad that synergizes well with him. If you do use him, a drop pod and some of those foot DC or some tacticals to replace Raphen's inefficiently geared squad as a troop choice could be some easy meat shields.
-take Veritas vitae on your warlord in almost any BA army over 1500ish points all day every day. (And obviously make your warlord a non-unique to do so unless your list syncs with Dante or Karlaen well.)

 niv-mizzet wrote:
-Land raiders are even worse than bad against crons.
-Your DC are overloaded with wargear. Jump packs and the occasional fist are all they need. Special pistols are a terrible waste of points. You've got over 100 points tied up in them. That could be more bodies.
-whirlwinds are awkwardly good heavy supports for their low cost against crons. Just the right AP value for warriors and able to fire from far outside gauss range. Cheap enough that concentrating gauss fire on them for a kill is inefficient use of force for the crons.
-Mephy is neat on paper and in casual games, but it's really hard to find him a squad that synergizes well with him. If you do use him, a drop pod and some of those foot DC or some tacticals to replace Raphen's inefficiently geared squad as a troop choice could be some easy meat shields.
-take Veritas vitae on your warlord in almost any BA army over 1500ish points all day every day. (And obviously make your warlord a non-unique to do so unless your list syncs with Dante or Karlaen well.)

I've used my DC as anti-dread squads before, to good effect, and they've proved more than useful against Terminators as well. I like to thin the herd before charging. But, yes, it does swallow up a lot of points.

The following is the list of everything that I personally have. I've had to borrow Raphen and Moriar and the drop pods.

-Terminator Chaplain
-Chaplain with JP
-Mephiston
-Corbulo

15 DC
5 DC with JP
15 Terminators (Tactical)
1 Furioso Dreadnought

20 Tactical marines (HF & Meltas)
1 Rhino
1 Razorback with TL HB

10 Assault Marines (2 meltas)

LR Crusader
10 Devastators (2 Las, 2 MM, 2 ML, 2 PC)
1 Predator Annihilator (TL Las & Las)

That obviously means that I have no bikes, no grav weapons and no Whirlwinds.

I suppose I'm asking for tactics that I can use against Necrons. And what sort of tactics might he use against me?

I'm also acutely aware that Necrons are fond of shooting at vehicles. In fact, I'm counting on it. I also haven't seen him use Wraiths.

Do you happen to have the Exterminatus supplement? If so you can run 'Defenders of Cathedrum'. Made up of almost exactly what you have, but gives them stubborn and counterattack. It helps strengthen two major BA weaknesses. Getting charged themselves and fleeing from enemy shooting. The problem with BA against necrons is that even in CC they can't kill enough quickly enough. When your DC get their rage bonus in every fight phase instead of just on the charge and when your termies get extra strength 8 attacks after not running (having been wounded umpteen times by necron shooting ) their CC efficiency goes way up. Especially when buffed by psykers.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Do you happen to have the Extermination supplement? If so you can run 'Defenders of Cathedrum'. Made up of almost exactly what you have, but gives them stubborn and counterattack. It helps strengthen to major BA weaknesses. Getting charged themselves and fleeing from enemy shooting. The problem with BA against necrons is that even in CC they can't kill enough quickly enough. When your DC get their rage bonus in every fight phase instead of just on the charge and when your termies get extra strength 8 attacks after not running (having been wounded umpteen times by necron shooting ) their CC efficiency goes way up. Especially when buffed by psykers.

No. Where can I get it?

X

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Do you happen to have the Extermination supplement? If so you can run 'Defenders of Cathedrum'. Made up of almost exactly what you have, but gives them stubborn and counterattack. It helps strengthen to major BA weaknesses. Getting charged themselves and fleeing from enemy shooting. The problem with BA against necrons is that even in CC they can't kill enough quickly enough. When your DC get their rage bonus in every fight phase instead of just on the charge and when your termies get extra strength 8 attacks after not running (having been wounded umpteen times by necron shooting ) their CC efficiency goes way up. Especially when buffed by psykers.

No. Where can I get it?

It's a supplement called Baal Exterminatus. There are 2 books. Make sure you get the BA one. There are also a couple necron formations so you and your necron buddy can split the cost since it is $70 USD. Check your LGS, if not them try the GW webstore. Worst case scenario you can try amazon or eBay since it's a pretty old supplement.

According to previous debate, if using 'Defenders of Cathedrum' it doesn't come under the Baal Strike Force so you don't benefit from Red Thirst or Furious Charge.

Is that true?

daveh974 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But they still get cover and RP against grav, so I don't think it's mandatory at all. Grav guns are highly overrated. Grav cannons are were its at.

Necrons won't table you like Tau or Eldar, but BA have precious little hope against them. BA just can't cause enough wounds.

This couldn't be more wrong. I'd rather play BA than any other army against Necrons. You're almost as resilient as they are and you poop on them in CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know what you have, but I love running my BA against Necrons. It's one of the few upper tier armies I do well against.
However, I employ a Boyz before Toyz strategy when I play and you may not have that option.

If I were facing a Necron army with 2k points I'd probably have about 70 dudes, and 50-60 would have feel no pain.
You don't need cover. Almost nothing in their army is AP3.
You don't need AP 3 weapons. I don't know of anything they have that posses that save type. Maybe the hover cycles(?), but they can jink so who cares.
Don't bring expensive vehicles they just die.
Don't bring dreadnoughts unless you're bringing a whole bunch of them knowing half will get gaussed to death before they get in. (but the other half auto-win against everything he has)

In a perfect world:
Scout snipers for handling the tomb spider that will be giving reanimate protocols to the wraiths.
Power fists/axes/valor's edge here and there to deal with the 2+ dudes.
2 sanguinary priests; 1 for the sanguinary guard, 1 for the fast attack choice you have to take with a Flesh Tearer strike force. (you don't need Baal SF as you already go first against his whole army axcept wraiths)
2 Death companies with either jump packs or drop pods with one power fist/axe and one power maul (for doubling out scarabs) per group.
1 or 2 melta weapons for blowing up the tomb barges before you charge so you can get to the warriors on the same turn you kill the barge.
Heavy bolter devastators as AP 4 does the job against them, with a power maul on the sergeant, so you can charge the death marks if they deep strike close. (don't underestimate the power of melee devastators)

You're recommending SG. You're probably the one who is wrong. Or list tailoring.

X

You can't pile into new combats in 7th edition though, so you kill something then get shot off the board.

There is a huge reason not to load up on melta: it sucks vs mcs, the current overlords of 7th.

Necrons aren't nearly asf bad in cc as you seem to think.

And wraiths are very cheap for what they do.

I've faced Necrons once before and those Wariths are a pain in the arse to deal with.

I charged three of them with a Furioso before and they wiped the floor with it. Though that was when I was using a simple CAD, so my dread didn't get Red Thirst.

Basic plan is to rush forward as much as possible and use a drop pod in turn 1, in addition to using what heavy support elements I have to thin the herd. I'm contemplating dropping my 6 man assault squad in favour of a Devastator squad equipped with Plasma cannons and las for additional firepower. They have proved useful before, but it means having one less squad to assault with.

The problem I have is that he'll most likely outnumber me and I prefer to send my ASM in to CC with another squad, because they're not that good as a lone assault squad. They often support my tactical marines, who rush forward, get out and hose the enemy with fire, before the ASM squad charges into a hopefully greatly reduced enemy squad.

Plasma cannons are garbage. Don't use them. If you really want to hurt Necrons, try an Archangel Sanguine Wing. Everything else is spitting into the wind as far as I can tell. This requires extensive modeling, though.

daveh974 wrote:
SG aren't ideal and I rarely use them, but they aren't a bad choice anymore. As for list tailoring I said at the top "in a perfect world".

I play with DC and regular assault squads. But I run the rest in part or in full of that against random opponents all the time. Even when I run 60-80 dudes mostly tactical when in a rhino rush 'mood' I still crush the Necrons. Melta guns against open topped is almost cheating and there's no reason not to have tons of them in a BA army. You don't have to be good in CC against most Necron units. Just by being in CC you rob them of everything they are good at. Once that happens you just have to win one fight, and then the winners pile into the next combat to free up another unit. Dominos. Yes, wraiths are annoying and gakky to fight, they also cost a million points and a 3++ is the same as a 3+ against a chain sword.

You're so off on your posts it isn't even funny.

If I were facing a Necron army with 2k points I'd probably have about 70 dudes, and 50-60 would have feel no pain.

Sounds like a good plan. Durable msu ObSec is a good way to fight necrons

You don't need cover. Almost nothing in their army is AP3.

Noting except the destroyer cult (all ap3) and the judicator battalion (all/most will be ap2) which happen to be the two most powerful shooting formations. You're right that necrons can't exactly spam ap3, but they can field it in powerful formations that will give them excellent shooting bonuses.

You don't need AP 3 weapons. I don't know of anything they have that posses that save type. Maybe the hover cycles(?), but they can jink so who cares.

Ok this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard anyone say about necrons. Nothing in the army is 3+? Sure, nothing except immortals (mandatory reclamation legion tax), tomb blades (also mandatory, will almost always have the shieldvane upgrade to bring them up to a 3+), destroyers (they make up the aforementioned destroyer cult which is very powerful), Triarch praetorians (make up most of the powerful judicator battalion, also mentioned before), nearly every Necron character (only crypteks and a handful of special characters are not 3+), canoptek spyders (they give canoptek harvest wraiths their rp, and must always be brought down quickly), and also warscythe lychguard (not super common, you probably don't have to worry about them as much). Many of the most powerful units in the codex have 3+ saves. You are absolutely incorrect on this matter.

Don't bring expensive vehicles they just die.

I agree with you completely on this.

Don't bring dreadnoughts unless you're bringing a whole bunch of them knowing half will get gaussed to death before they get in. (but the other half auto-win against everything he has)

Dreadnoughts can just be tarpitted by warriors or eaten by scarabs. They're too slow to catch tomb blades, destroyers, or most other soft targets. They will get annihilated by any squad with a warscythe. I think you overestimate their utility, especially considering that many will be destroyed before they get into combat.

Power fists/axes/valor's edge here and there to deal with the 2+ dudes.

What? You advise him not to bring ap3, but to bring ap2? Necrons have 3 special characters with 2+ saves (two of whom you will never see in any kind of competetive list) and 1 relic (which is also uncommon) which grants a 2+ save. Unless your opponent runs Zandrekh every time, you don't need ap2 at all.

I can't comment on the rest of your suggestions as I know very little about blood Angels. Overall, you had some excellent tips and some that I disagree with vehemently.

1. You're NOT as durable as they are, not even close. Without ignoring their save, a basic Warrior has a 75% chance to shrug off a wound.
2. You aren't hitting that hard in melee. Hell, the Decurion gives Relentless, and Ghost Arks are open-topped. Warriors can bloody charge you before your Tacticals get the chance. Plus their melee units are actually able to get in combat and handle themselves (outside Lychguard, who are just plain slow). So stop recommending that.
3. Don't need AP3 weapons? Everything they have is 3+ outside Scarabs, Warriors, and Flayed Ones. You're clearly not playing against Necrons, or even playing this same game, if you're saying you don't think anything in their army has a 3+. Your advice is pretty garbage so far, daveh974.
4. Dreadnoughts being autowin against everything else a Necron player has? Have you seen your Dreadnoughts? 2 attacks base and 3 HP?
5. Scout Snipers are terrible with BS3. Along with the fact the Spyder will be benefitting from RP as well, it is easy for them to get cover as well for any potential AP2. Plus Scarabs will hold up Scouts forever if the Necron player sucks and is somehow afraid of the Scouts.
6. So first you say you don't think the army even has 3+ dudes, and now you say to bring Power Fists and Axes to deal with the 2+ dudes? I think I can count on ONE hand what has a 2+. There's the Stormlord (you'll never see them), Nemesor (who hits with nothing in melee), Obyron, and then an HQ with the Nightmare Shroud. There's also a guy from IA12, but seeing as that hasn't been updated I'm going to skip counting him (plus he would wreck face more than Obyron).
7. Sanguine Guard are terrible and will die to frickin Praetorians in the shooting phase. They'll only be taken in the Judicator anyway, so enjoy getting rerolls everywhere too.
Seriously, for the points, Sanguine Guard are less durable than Death Company to everything besides AP3 specifically. On top of that, Guard need more points invested into them (like the Priests) and a somewhat durable character to babysit them. Death Company have neither problem.
8. You're taking hidden Power Fists for Death Company. If you want Power Weapons outside that SOOOO badly, take the formation giving Vanguard free Power Weapons. Also, Drop Pods are a terrible idea when Jump Packs are available.
9. There's no such thing as a Tomb Barge, once again showing ignorance on playing against Necrons. Assuming you meant Ghost Ark, they're AV13 and can Jink. You don't just "bring 1 or 2 melta weapons" to deal with those.
10. You just talked about equipping a Devastator Sergeant with a Power Maul to deal with Deathmarks (one of those pesky 3+ units!) and that you shouldn't underestimate Devastators in melee. That statement is so unforgivable I will let someone else have the opportunity to point out the issues with it.
11. Regarding the next post, Rhino Rush will only work if the opponent has no Destroyers, Canoptek stuff, or Ghost Arks for the Warriors. TLHGC can worm on Stalkers to, but otherwise you're going to lose to Eldar and Tau, whose basic weapons at the least will glance you, or other Marine armies where a single 6 from that Grav Gun will immobilize the Rhino. No winning in that manner, so you might as well stick to Drop Pods outside a Gladius, where Rhinos and Razorbacks are free at least.
12. Melta Guns aren't "almost cheating" when that Ghost Ark will jink for a 4+ and then the Warriors shoot you 20 times and then assault (Relentless is worth its weight in gold).
13. Yes you DO actually have to be good in melee, as otherwise, if you're not OS, you're both just sitting on an objective nobody is catching for themselves, and slowly those Warriors just aren't going away. Also, good luck tarpitting anything else in that army. Flayed Ones think you're funny.
14. Wraiths are 40 points. For T5, W2, a 3++, and S6 attacks with Rending, that's a superb deal and NOT a million points. They can easily make their points back, even when that isn't their greatest strength!

TL;DR - Don't listen to daveh974 because his advice is terrible and even misinformative.

While I think you could be a little more civil, I agree with all your points Slayer-Fan123. I hope op takes it into account.

People familiar with BA have grown notoriously cranky. Sucking will do that.

As a Necron a player... I'd pity anyone trying to bring BA against them. BA are bad in general but against the new Necrons it's awful.

But if you want hope, you should try to get familiar with Necron units:

Things to melee if you can:
- Warriors (without a character). Preferably with something that has AP 4 weapons. If you can win combat then you have a chance to sweep them. But if you go in with just vanilla marines then you probably won't win.
- Immortals. Same boat as Warriors except 3+ saves but fewer numbers usually.
- Any vehicle if you have a high-strength weapon. Every Necron vehicle except the Monolith has a rear armor of 11 in melee.
- Tomb Blades if you're able to catch them. They're tough to kill, but their damage output in melee is weak (due to low model count) and their high mobility is useless if stuck in combat.
- Destroyers if you're able to catch them. They're jetpack infantry with AP3 and AP2 weapons. These must die. Unfortunately they have T5, W2, 3+, 4+++ (5+++ outside Decurion) and are Jetpack... so they're really hard to catch and kill. But they're NOT fearless, so it's possible to sweep them though unlikely. These are actually a decent candidate to shoot lascannons at due to their range... but that's only because lascannons suck at killing anything else and against Destroyers you'll atleast get more bang for your buck. You could also force a morale test while the Destroyers are hugging the back wall... and that MIGHT kill the whole unit with a failed morale. It's a long shot but that's where you're gonna have to get lucky to win with BA.

Things to shoot:
- Scarabs. They're small, fast and have a lot of wounds and attacks. But they're only T3... so if you have anything with strength 6 or higher then Scarabs are good targets. If you do take a plasma cannon (probably shouldn't but your options are limited) then it might actually be worth it's points killing Scarabs if your opponent has a lot of them because Scarabs have the Swarm rule. Thus Plasma Cannon shots will deal 2 wounds per hit AND cause instant death.
- Spyders. If your opponent has a Cynoptek Harvest formation, then the Spyder is the key. Kill it before attempting to kill the Wraiths. Lascannons might work, Drop Pod melta should work, grav of some kind would work (though I don't think BA have grav?). Again you have very limited options which is why so many are saying this is a mismatch.
- Wraiths. If you kill the Spyder, then it's worth shooting Wraiths.
- Praetorians. They're pretty hardy with T5, 3+, RP and Jump but they're only W1 and 28 ppm. So if you can sneak some bolter shots at these guys before they get to melee (they're melee oriented) then you might get lucky. Don't underestimate them in melee. Depending on the variant, they'll either have Rending or AP 2 weapons with 2 or 3 attacks per model. And they're fearless.
- Flayed Ones. These are basicly Warriors with 3 attacks and Shred. (T4, W1, 4+ 4+++). Don't get in melee with these. They're disposable melee units that can pack a punch way above their cost... if they reach melee. If you melee them you're basicly just handing your opponent point advantage.

What not to do:
- Don't think that you can shoot a Ghost Ark to death with a lascannon. If your opponent know anything about anything then he will Jink and 4+ those shots away. You're better off trying to shoot a Spyder or Destroyers with those lascannons. Your best bet against a Ghost Ark is to melee them or drop pod melta (and I mean 4 to 5 meltas... not 2) But really Ghost Arks aren't the biggest threat Necrons have so they should be a lower priority than other stuff.
- Don't melee Wraiths with your power weapon models. It'll just waste the AP 3/2 weapons. Wraiths are a tarpit unit, so try to get them stuck in melee with a cheap throw-away unit or shoot them. (They're also fearless)

Other units worth mentioning:
- C'tans. You might run into one. All you need to know is that they're MCs with 4++ and T6 and only 6" movement. Ignore them until everything else important is dead.
- Flyers... not really worth your time to shoot. They can't land so they can't take your objectives.
- Triarch Stalkers: A walker with 3HP that gives a +1 BS buff to units within 6". They also have either a 2shot multi-melta weapon or a 36" lascannon equivalent weapon. He has AV 13 like most Necron vehicles but he can't Jink. So a decent candidate for lascannons or melta if you get a clear shot.

That's all I can think of atm. It'll be an uphill battle. Good luck!

I generally agree with the above post. Archangel sanguine win plays into a lot of the above suggestions.