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 judgedoug wrote:
As has been discussed multiple times in the last page or two, anyone who plays SBG knows that one old box, or two new boxes, is more than enough core infantry for entire army - to complain that it now costs a few dollars more than it did in 2001 to play a game demonstratesa lack of knowledge regarding how the game actually plays, and the fact that it remains the cheapest "gateway game" that GW offers. As has been demonstrated several times in this thread, you can have a good army for under $100 for almost every faction.

Don't make the mistake of confusing "me" with "the world", because when you remember when you could buy stuff for cheaper does not mean that no one else ever will buy models again.

edit: I hadn't looked at 40k prices in a long, long time, so I went ahead and checked Space Marines, and had to double check that I wasn't viewing the Australian site by accident. People are really paying $40 for a Tactical Squad and $46 for a 5 man Devastator Squad?
Then yeah, Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are infinitely cheaper to play than 40k. Even the pricier Hobbit plastics are cheaper, and, in my opinion, look better and are for a better game system.

And anybody who plays the game knows you don't need just 2 box of old plastics. You do know there's all sort of other models right?

Add in boromir. boom 29e for 2 models. Guards of the Fountain Court? 21e for 4 infantry models.

And just because it is cheaper than 40k doesn't make it reasonably priced. Just because there's even more horribly overpriced doesn't make overpriced non overpriced. I presume you are aware there's other manufacturers than GW right? You need to compare at miniature industry as a whole. Not within one company.


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 mdauben wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
When the game came out I was like 12 and it was far cheaper then the other two, which made it great, now it isn't.

Sure it is! Stop focusing on price per mini and look at price per army. Its easy to build a playable army for less than $100US. Try doing that in 40K or WFB.

Size of army is dependant on player. Price per model IS only applicable comparison within miniature scale.

Lotr is a skirmish game and can be played on a small scale. You need a hero and his band, that's it if you want. Pretty cheap to get into and expand from there. Most armies I've seen are about 3 bands with three heroes. That's still very cheap.

40k these days, I see a minimum of 1500 points on average (usually 1850-2k). That is a crap ton of cash, unless you got into it when it was cheap like many of us did (remember when that land raider was $50? I do ) Cheapest army I've seen is deathwing or grey knights. Deathwing can be done with 2 drop pods, 2 dreadnaughts, 4 term squads, a character, etc. A person could buy 4 dv term sets (usually 25) and 2 abl dreads (25) on ebay for fairly cheap. This army would only cost a couple hundred bucks.

The only game gw has that is cheaper than lotr is aos, and that I'd because you can legally play one model if you wish, no matter what your opponent has.

tneva82 wrote:
And anybody who plays the game knows you don't need just 2 box of old plastics. You do know there's all sort of other models right?

Again, you only need one box or warriors and one hero blister to play the game. Two boxes and two heroes will get you a nice force. Sure theirs lots more figures you can buy (I've spent literally thousands of dollars on LOTR since it was first releases) but you don't need those figures to play the game.

I presume you are aware there's other manufacturers than GW right? You need to compare at miniature industry as a whole. Not within one company.

And I've done that.

LOTR:
1 x Rohan Warriors box
1 x Riders of Rohan box
1 x Eomer
1 x Grimbold
TOTAL $82

WARMACHINE
1 x Khador Starter Box
1 x Khador Iron Fang Pikeman
1 x Khador Manhunter
TOTAL $110

Two playable forces of approximately the same size and not dissimilar prices. The only area that SBG is obviously more expensive is the big hardcover rulebooks. Certainly you could build a more expensive LOTR force by picking the all metal or finecast figures, like wise you could probably shave a few dollars off the Warmachine force if you cherry picked the cheapest options. Overall as far as I can see, however, the costs look pretty comparable. I'm also sure their are cheaper game options you could find (maybe Saga?), but their are more expensive one's, too (40K, KOW). Looking at GW products, SBG is cheap. Looking at the gaming industry as a whole, SBG is still pretty average.

Size of army is dependant on player. Price per model IS only applicable comparison within miniature scale.

No. Sure someone could play SBG with 100-150 figures but the game isn't designed to really handle that well. Entry cost is important. Average cost for a playable army is important. If you really want to play big battles in Middle Earth I'd use the War of the Ring rules, rather than the SBG rules, and even then I would maintain the costs are similar or cheaper than WFB (8th ed or 9th Age) or Mantic's Kings or War so again your argument fails.

Yes, GW has raised their prices since LOTR was first introduced. Yes, the increases have arguably exceeded inflation or justifiable production costs. Its still a cheap game for GW and pretty similar in price to many comparable games.

 mdauben wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
When the game came out I was like 12 and it was far cheaper then the other two, which made it great, now it isn't.

Sure it is! Stop focusing on price per mini and look at price per army. Its easy to build a playable army for less than $100US. Try doing that in 40K or WFB.

22 bucks (or so) for like 24 models, that was the plastic standard (or 12 cavalry) then they split the boxes into 12 and 6 and charged almost double.
Absolutely not.

You are certainly entitled to setting your own "line in the sand" when it comes to miniature prices. If we are comparing across GW's product range, there are plenty of 40K and AoS plastic foot figures that are selling for over $10US each, compared to $2-4 each for LOTR and Hobbit plastic foot figures.

It used to be far, far better.

Yes, and gasoline used to cost 10¢ a gallon. No one likes paying more for anything and I'll even admit GW price increases probably outstrip actual production cost increases but that's life. If you don't feel you can spend money on the SBG anymore that's your decision but I don't think you are correct that this is a universal feeling. I think in general the SBG prices are very comparable to several other popular games like Warmahords or Infinity. Buy a starter set and one or two more boxes for either game and the prices are very comparable to a SBG army.

I like your challenge, what are the rules, the points?
I like to think my veteranship gives me an edge.
Get back to me, and upon completion I will make a thread in the painting section.

I read some comments about War of the Ring and how it's a bad thing and it caused people to stop playing. I don't understand this.

Did Apocalypse prevent people from playing 40K? Basically that is what War of the Ring is, LotR version of 40K's Apocalypse.

I don't think it caused people to quit playing, Davor... Its just generally felt to be a pretty inferior game, that to the uninformed, might make them thing SBG is the game people are referring to when they mention Lord of the Rings miniatures.

As rules go, i've almost never found someone speaking ill of SBG mechanically. Price debates, etc... aside, SBG is rock solid.

tneva82 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
As has been discussed multiple times in the last page or two, anyone who plays SBG knows that one old box, or two new boxes, is more than enough core infantry for entire army

And anybody who plays the game knows you don't need just 2 box of old plastics. You do know there's all sort of other models right?

Yes, that's why I said _core infantry_, doe the specific complaints that four and a half years ago there was a price rise.

tneva82 wrote:
And just because it is cheaper than 40k doesn't make it reasonably priced. Just because there's even more horribly overpriced doesn't make overpriced non overpriced. I presume you are aware there's other manufacturers than GW right? You need to compare at miniature industry as a whole. Not within one company.

Of course, I own probably... quick estimate... five thousand... or more? non-GW miniatures. gosh, probably almost a thousand WSS figs. And as much as I wish the Perry bros could keep on sculpting M-E and also at Perry prices, it's just not the case. But LOTR is not only the cheapest GW game to get into and play, it's still pretty affordable compared to other industry standards such as WMH and Malifaux. Right now someone could go buy an Isengard captain/banner blister and a box of Uruk-Hai warriors and have almost 200 points for less than $40. Now, if we start dipping into Bolt Action and such, and SBG starts looking not as affordable, sure. For example, I drive a Camaro because it looks awesome and it's incredibly powerful, and I know I paid a lot more than a Honda Civic which, sure, is more economical. My Camaro's 326 hp v6 engine is far superior, just as SBG's engine is far superior to most other games. The Camaro looks way cooler than a Civic, just as LOTR figures look way better than the more economical Gripping Beast dark age plastics. Probably not the best analogy, but I'm typing quickly while I'm at work
The point being that SBG is a little pricier than a lot of other companies - but the rules and models are some of the best on the market. The only other company that I think matches the _overall_ strength of SBG's line is Mierce. The only other ruleset that I think is as elegant and solid are Kings of War and Terminator. (and Starship Troopers, may it rest in peace)

tneva82 wrote:
Size of army is dependant on player. Price per model IS only applicable comparison within miniature scale.

Well, sure - but this is a problem within every miniatures line using every type of material. SBG is no exception. It's more expensive to build a horde army of finecast models (my lake town army, for example, which was painful to buy). But the same comparison can be made with the aforementioned Perry models... it's cheaper to play Bolt Action with Desert Rats or DAK because Perry makes them in plastic, and they'd probably be "regulars", versus buying Perry Italians which might be "inpexerienced" and only available in metal. It naturally would have more models in the army and cost more due to the material.

But, but.... don't you understand Doug.... a 1000pts of SBG is more expensive than a 25ss game of Malifaux. :-p

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
But, but.... don't you understand Doug.... a 1000pts of SBG is more expensive than a 25ss game of Malifaux. :-p

Haha, and it's more expensive to do Waterloo at 1:1 scale as well

But seriously though, I too yearn for pricing from 5, 10, 15 years ago, sure. But those days are gone (sort of - as has been pointed out a lot, FW resin is considerably cheaper than Finecast, so we may be getting a series of price decreases!) The great thing is that if any new player wants to get in on the fun, SBG is still quite affordable to play. And there's you and me and all kinds of other people who will happily help someone, if they're like, "hey, I want to drop $100 and have a good starter force for SBG, what should I get?" and we can all help them choose what things to buy to get the best bang for their buck.

I don't think this was mentioned yet but if not here's what I could gather on what models are going to be coming out next:

Saruman and grima kit (Finecast)
Scouring of the Shire set (Metal)
The Shade (Metal)

Not sure if they will all come out on the same day but 1 model per source book so far anyways. They said they will re-release more models down the road but not sure which ones.

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Just an update on what I could gather on what models are going to be coming out next:

Saruman and grima kit (Not sure on material but whatever it was last produced in which I believe metal)
Scouring of the Shire set (Metal)
The Shade (again unsure of material)

Not sure if they will all come out on the same day but 1 model per source book so far anyways. They said they will re-release more models down the road but not sure which ones.

Saruman and Grima combo kit was a Finecast pack.

Shade was re-released in metal at Warhammer Fest so will be metal from GW again.

 judgedoug wrote:


Saruman and Grima combo kit was a Finecast pack.

Shade was re-released in metal at Warhammer Fest so will be metal from GW again.

Ya I wasn't sure if it was metal or finecast just updated the post. I don't think that Shade was available for purchase at warhammer fest but it was on display? I could be wrong about that though

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Ya I wasn't sure if it was metal or finecast just updated the post. I don't think that Shade was available for purchase at warhammer fest but it was on display? I could be wrong about that though

You're right! Yes, the big news was that they found a usable master to make new molds, or something along those lines, but not in time to make it for W-Fest.

Well, I am hoping that the Mahud King Mounted is in the pipeline for a re-release, as its something I am waiting for. I am not diving to that army-list's purchases, until I can get him, and also Mahud models with blowpipes.

Like Doug, I hate doing a project piece-meal, so I would rather set aside money and then go in hard when I can make the list I would actually want.

Btw... do people use the Nazgul on Fellbeast as a catch-all proxy to represent any of the Nazgul who can take a Fellbeast as an option?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Btw... do people use the Nazgul on Fellbeast as a catch-all proxy to represent any of the Nazgul who can take a Fellbeast as an option?

The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.

 judgedoug wrote:

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Ya I wasn't sure if it was metal or finecast just updated the post. I don't think that Shade was available for purchase at warhammer fest but it was on display? I could be wrong about that though

You're right! Yes, the big news was that they found a usable master to make new molds, or something along those lines, but not in time to make it for W-Fest.

Makes sense. Did GWnot say they "destroy" the old mods? Guess that's not true lol

Going to be making an order to GW soon if they release the fallen realms book

 judgedoug wrote:


The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.

I did not know that, I didn't even realize it was a plastic kit. I may need to pick one up.

Thanks!

There was also a guide in a WD from like 4-5 years ago about converting them up. Most involved chopping the respective Nazgul off their metal horses (except for the Witchking, Kamul the Eastering and a few others who just got the greenstuff treatment to do their key details).

 CptJake wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:


The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.

I did not know that, I didn't even realize it was a plastic kit. I may need to pick one up.

Thanks!

The nazgul on fell beast and the balrog both plastic kits for $75 is actually not a bad price. I've been wanting to pick one up for some time...damn I want every model haha

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
There was also a guide in a WD from like 4-5 years ago about converting them up. Most involved chopping the respective Nazgul off their metal horses (except for the Witchking, Kamul the Eastering and a few others who just got the greenstuff treatment to do their key details).

Yeah... I'll get right on that.... cutting up a $30+ miniature for a head-swap. :-p

And yeah, as soon as Fallen Kingdoms book comes back in stock i'll be ordering a bunch of stuff too. At this point I can make virtually the lists I want, with only the Mahud King on Camel really missing and without a decent proxy, so i'll get what I can.

 chiefbigredman wrote:
The nazgul on fell beast and the balrog both plastic kits for $75 is actually not a bad price. I've been wanting to pick one up for some time...damn I want every model haha

Or $62 in real money... Yeah I've got a problem, I've got a plastic Balrog and 2 metal Balrogs (one of each post), plus 2 plastic Fell-beasts and one of each of the two metal Fell-beasts...


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 CptJake wrote:
I did not know that, I didn't even realize it was a plastic kit. I may need to pick one up.
Thanks!

I also heartily recommend the plastic Troll kit - comes with a ton of options (several weapons, helmets, armor, heads, and even drums), the plastic Ent with alternate faces (and dead orcs!), and the plastic Balrog kit (with weapon options). Some of my favorite plastic kits.

I'll vouch for the troll kit. I've already built four, and they are great renditions of the film aesthetic, and build some cool options.

 judgedoug wrote:

 chiefbigredman wrote:
The nazgul on fell beast and the balrog both plastic kits for $75 is actually not a bad price. I've been wanting to pick one up for some time...damn I want every model haha

Or $62 in real money... Yeah I've got a problem, I've got a plastic Balrog and 2 metal Balrogs (one of each post), plus 2 plastic Fell-beasts and one of each of the two metal Fell-beasts...

Technically cheaper for you to buy it in Canada be $58 USD if you got it here at regular price....

Canada is the greatest place ever eh! Beer hockey and ice fishing is all I do! (That's actually not a lie lol)

 chiefbigredman wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 chiefbigredman wrote:
The nazgul on fell beast and the balrog both plastic kits for $75 is actually not a bad price. I've been wanting to pick one up for some time...damn I want every model haha

Or $62 in real money... Yeah I've got a problem, I've got a plastic Balrog and 2 metal Balrogs (one of each post), plus 2 plastic Fell-beasts and one of each of the two metal Fell-beasts...

Technically cheaper for you to buy it in Canada be $58 USD if you got it here at regular price....

Canada is the greatest place ever eh! Beer hockey and ice fishing is all I do! (That's actually not a lie lol)

Don't forget, "producing the greatest wrestlers to ever live" part of Canada. :-)

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


As rules go, i've almost never found someone speaking ill of SBG mechanically. Price debates, etc... aside, SBG is rock solid.

I agree. I think the best rule set GH ever done.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I'll vouch for the troll kit. I've already built four, and they are great renditions of the film aesthetic, and build some cool options.

I've got three plastic Isengard trolls and 2 metal Isengard trolls - had to make all possible combinations

 judgedoug wrote:
The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.

I didn't know that. I've got the original "tail standing" Nazgul on Fell Beast model, and a separate "tail sitting" Witch King on Fell Beast which has a different rider (WK with helmet and morning star) and a different head for the Fell Beast IIRC.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


Don't forget, "producing the greatest wrestlers to ever live" part of Canada. :-)

I have never heard of this....I'm sorry :/

 chiefbigredman wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


Don't forget, "producing the greatest wrestlers to ever live" part of Canada. :-)

I have never heard of this....I'm sorry :/

I promise we'll get this thread back on topic... but no discussion of Canada's best things should ever omit the Hart family. :-)

 mdauben wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.

I didn't know that. I've got the original "tail standing" Nazgul on Fell Beast model, and a separate "tail sitting" Witch King on Fell Beast which has a different rider (WK with helmet and morning star) and a different head for the Fell Beast IIRC.

plus the plastic flying Fell-beast actually has the reigns for the Nazgul to hold!

Witch King of Angmar with flaming sword OR Nazgul (with two different head and arm options)
two different neck/head options (with armor option)
two different lengths of reigns depending on neck/head chosen