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 mortetvie wrote:
It has been pointed out that even if players check their lists several times and a TO checks their list, it is still possible for errors to persist due to the complicated nature of how lists are constructed.

Not really. 40k list building isn't all that complicated. 40k armies often involve multiple sources/detachments, but in the end you still list every unit and upgrade and add up the total points you have spent. If you have 1753 points in a 1750 point tournament it isn't because 40k is complicated, it's because you're either incompetent or cheating.

the rules for getting there (e.g., putting together a list and the points implications for said lists) are not so black and white.

Could you give an example of something that is not black and white in army construction? Because everything I can think of is pretty black and white if you take the time to carefully read the rules and list everything you're including.

 Peregrine wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
It has been pointed out that even if players check their lists several times and a TO checks their list, it is still possible for errors to persist due to the complicated nature of how lists are constructed.

Not really. 40k list building isn't all that complicated. 40k armies often involve multiple sources/detachments, but in the end you still list every unit and upgrade and add up the total points you have spent. If you have 1753 points in a 1750 point tournament it isn't because 40k is complicated, it's because you're either incompetent or cheating.

the rules for getting there (e.g., putting together a list and the points implications for said lists) are not so black and white.

Could you give an example of something that is not black and white in army construction? Because everything I can think of is pretty black and white if you take the time to carefully read the rules and list everything you're including.

So now you've changed your position from someone being over points as being a cheater to being incompetent or a cheater. Well, that is an improvement, I guess...

As far as an example, others have posted how there are just certain details that are easy to miss (like needing to buy a bolt pistol or CCW for a character to upgrade it to another item) and there is the element of human error. No one person is perfect and builds perfect lists all the time. Labeling someone a cheater for simple human error is an untenable position and better players than us have made simple mistakes in list composition. Calling them incompetent or cheaters is hardly reasonable or a realistic assessment of the situation.

We can't prove they did it intentionally. Okay.

They can't prove definitively it was an accident.

We can assume it's an accident and still have penalties in place. That doesn't make us bad people. It makes us fair. You cheat? Penalty. You make a mistake that could affect games in your favor? Penalty.

We don't need to call them cheaters, but they're bringing illegal lists. That still should result in a penalty. So don't get hung up on what we call them, let's focus on the discussion which is what we should do about it.

Human error is a thing, yes. Actual cheating is also a thing. Do we forgive cheating to allow human error, or do we penalize human error to prevent cheating?

If you get caught over on points:

1. Your previous games are forfeit, with the opponent getting full credit.

2. The offending unit is modified to get back under/at correct points.

3. You are disqualified from any awards (painting, best general, etc).

4. Get back to the tournament.

No need for name calling, perma-bans, etc.

Multiple transgressions at area events may/should result in a perma-ban. Public mocking still not needed.

 BossJakadakk wrote:
We can't prove they did it intentionally. Okay.

They can't prove definitively it was an accident.

We can assume it's an accident and still have penalties in place. That doesn't make us bad people. It makes us fair. You cheat? Penalty. You make a mistake that could affect games in your favor? Penalty.

We don't need to call them cheaters, but they're bringing illegal lists. That still should result in a penalty. So don't get hung up on what we call them, let's focus on the discussion which is what we should do about it.

Human error is a thing, yes. Actual cheating is also a thing. Do we forgive cheating to allow human error, or do we penalize human error to prevent cheating?

If you read ANY of my posts (both earlier in the discussion and my initial post prompting Peregrine's reply), you will note that I was for some penalty being imposed. So no, wanting to impose a penalty for rules or format violations does not make you a bad person, that makes you a person who wants justice, which I commend.

However, anyone and everyone should get hung up on what you or anyone else calls other people. By calling people cheaters or implying certain conduct equates to cheating without any rational basis, you (and everyone else doing so) diverts the discussion-from the focus of what should/could be done-to name calling which IIRC violates not only Dakka policy but basic human decency. Based on your flag, it appears you live in America, where people are innocent until proven guilty. Remember that =).

Finally, I also make the point that there is absolutely no legitimate basis anyone has for saying X penalty for Y infraction is the way it should be, unless they are the TO for that specific event. It is fine for you, Kronk (and others), to say what you think the penalty structure should be and everyone should welcome such discussion. But really, we should all remember that it's only our opinion, at best, and none of us speak with any authority on what the penalties-if any-should be.

Yeah, man, I'll happily say it's just my opinion! I do remember reading your posts, just couldn't remember what all you had said before, and ended up not searching through.

I just think that because we can't actually prove or disprove intent, the penalty should be such that the intent doesn't matter. If a list is illegal, penalty. Otherwise we risk alienating people who lost to an illegal list and were told something along of the lines of "too bad," although it will probably be worded in a much nicer way. Or the risk of having more illegal lists because "Hey that guy did it and he won all the prizes!"

I'm with ya. And I'm not saying we *should* call people cheaters or that it's okay too. I felt the conversation turning to that might start to stray too far off topic, and then we're no longer trying to find any fair penalties for these things, we're just talking about what we should call these people. And if we're gonna do that, I vote for "bananas."

As in, "Y'all're bananas if you think you should get prizes with an illegal list."

I like kronk's list. Seems fair enough, and the person still gets to play some 40k, which is what we all really want, right?

Personally I would have no problem being disqualified if I was found to be over points. It's nobody else's fault I could not do simple math but mine. I would feel terrible for someone I beat that while they might have been awarded my points maybe left early thinking they were eliminated.

Strict enforcement of tournament rules don't exist to punish cheaters, but to protect the innocent from being cheated. I would rather 10 guys walk away with hurt feelings because they were eliminated due to their own bad math than send one guy home early because his opponent cheated him, intentional or not.

We don't need tournaments that coddle cheaters and tell them it's OK, just don't do it in the future and drop that meltabomb that you illegally had, you know the one you used to finish off your opponents knight and cinch the win your last game. That is stupid.

 Orock wrote:
Personally I would have no problem being disqualified if I was found to be over points. It's nobody else's fault I could not do simple math but mine. I would feel terrible for someone I beat that while they might have been awarded my points maybe left early thinking they were eliminated.

Strict enforcement of tournament rules don't exist to punish cheaters, but to protect the innocent from being cheated. I would rather 10 guys walk away with hurt feelings because they were eliminated due to their own bad math than send one guy home early because his opponent cheated him, intentional or not.

We don't need tournaments that coddle cheaters and tell them it's OK, just don't do it in the future and drop that meltabomb that you illegally had, you know the one you used to finish off your opponents knight and cinch the win your last game. That is stupid.

And this is the mentality I was talking about... Saying things like "opponent cheated him" and "we don't need tournaments that coddle cheaters..." shows you presuppose such conduct is akin to cheating. It isn't cheating if there is no intent to cheat.

Also, not all rules violations are equal. Being 1 point over with wargear that had no effect on a game (like an IG Sgt taking a bolter that never shot in a game) versus being over points with wargear that did have an effect on a game (like a meltabomb that finishes off a Knight) is not the same thing.

Especially if the error is caught before a game or event starts, I don't think a player should be disqualified from earning any prizes or participating if any potential issues are resolved before an event begins. And in the end, it is always up to a TO with how to handle the matter.

Overall, what we REALLY need is TOs to simply put in their primer/rules how being over points will be handled and go from there.

Not being willing to assume that cheating is cheating is why cheating is so easy and prevalent. until a hard stance is taken, this is a sucker's game.

I'd be inclined to go easy on people in low key "open" events, but if they're competing in an invitational or a championship event, or the on the second say of a multi day event for high end placing, would say there's very little excuse for anything being wrong with their lists, at those levels they should know better and TO's should be able to vet lists with more care with reduced numbers. Severe penalties are both appropriate and warranted to deter future behavior, as is extra care by the TO's in vetting lists to ensure the integrity of the event is not called into question.

 tomjoad wrote:
Not being willing to assume that cheating is cheating is why cheating is so easy and prevalent. until a hard stance is taken, this is a sucker's game.

First of all, who is not willing to assume that cheating is cheating? You might want to clarify that because a fact is a fact, so if someone cheats, they are a cheater... But automatically equating conduct that is not necessarily cheating as cheating defies the laws of logic (and is a logical fallacy). That is backwards thinking that is not supported by logic or how the English language works, but ok, thank's for your opinion? This added what, exactly, to the discussion of what SHOULD be done in handling list oversight at GTs?

Acting outside the rules or standards set-up by an event organizer, one is acting as a vigilante or worse, a mob. The problem here is that some TOs do not address this matter in their tournament format, where they really should. And absent rules or standards set-up by any event organizer, we have the chaos brewing in this thread-and no one person's opinion is any better than another's in terms of what penalties, if any, should be assessed for various infractions.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'd be inclined to go easy on people in low key "open" events, but if they're competing in an invitational or a championship event, or the on the second say of a multi day event for high end placing, would say there's very little excuse for anything being wrong with their lists, at those levels they should know better and TO's should be able to vet lists with more care with reduced numbers. Severe penalties are both appropriate and warranted to deter future behavior, as is extra care by the TO's in vetting lists to ensure the integrity of the event is not called into question.

Not saying I exactly disagree with you, but to drive a point home, what is the basis for your position? What is the authority you speak from to make a statement as "Severe penalties are both appropriate and warranted to deter future behavior"?

The bottom line is that any conduct that is punishable in any way needs to be clearly outlined. There is a reason why people cannot be punished by our justice system for actions they carried out that were not clearly illegal or punishable at the time they carried out those actions. Likewise, laws are routinely struck down if they are vague in terms of what the penalties are and how those penalties are assessed.

In the interest of justice, I balk at punishing anyone absent a clearly outlined schedule of "x conduct=y infraction" clearly implemented by a TO. In that sense, it is the TOs responsibility to address these issues and deal with them as thoroughly as possible because it really isn't our job, as a player base, to address these matters after the fact and we certainly have no authority to dictate how they should be handled before the fact. Absent any clearly outlined language in a TO's rules packet, it is just up to the TO to dictate what penalties are attributed for what infractions.

Wrongful conduct should be addressed and deterred-that is something we can all agree on. But it should be done as fairly and judicially as possible.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

 MDizzle wrote:
Are you sure that the people that have made errors on their lists are cheaters?

Forget to write down a melta bomb and get banned seems legit!

Punishing cheaters is a big deal to you list issues would be far down the rung for me. In 40k the way people cheat most is slow play.

A 3 point issue on a list is small potatoes IMHO.

Making honest people feel like cheaters for making a simple mistake is not the way to build a community and have a good and healthy environment.

Sorry,

But when 40k players take themselves as seriously as they do, there's no other way.

A guy running a MTG deck with cards not listed in his decklist gets kicked and banned. They pay as much or more for their hobby as we do. I don't see them struggling with attendance.

3 points here or there might have been the difference between a transport, melta bomb, or formation cost, all of which could drastically change how the game ends.

The problem here is that you are assuming that most 40K players are serious.

Usually, maybe only 20% of tournament goer's at a larger tournament are serious competitors. The rest of the 80% of attendees are there more for fun and the social aspect.

And while MTG might be doing well in the tournament scene, competitive 40K overall isn't. If not for the efforts of certain communities (like the ITC), tournament attendance would be dismal in many parts of the United States.

I really can't stand these statements of absolutions. He cheated therefore he needs to be DQ'd and banned! I say, let the punishment fit the crime. In other words, it would be up to the TO to decide how he wants to deal with cheating, whether purposeful or unintentional. Who are we as strangers on the Net to dictate how John runs his tournament? If he makes the right call, ok, everything is peachy. If he makes the wrong call, his future tournament attendance will suffer. Just look at Feast of Blades or other tournaments that were involved in controversial decisions. But the future of his tournament should lie in his hands, not to armchair generals on the Net.

This thread has become fairly ridiculous and circular.

The number of people posting authoritatively, from places of sheer ignorance as to what goes into running events, is mind boggling. That's not even mentioning the people posting with no skin in the game at all because they don't even go to these events.

The TO community is aware of the problem, and I am confident they will address it to the best of their ability. It does give me some small comfort knowing that threads like these are given much less weight than they used to by the wider Competitive 40k community.

You will never get anyone to admit that they cheated. It's just like all those stories we hear on multiple forums..."I did not know that dice was loaded.....I purchased it out of a jar at my local store".

The repurcussions for "making an honest mistake"/cheating are there to force people into due diligence and check their own lists. If you want an organizer to check your list see if they will ahead of time...then you have a case. But if you make a mistake then you should be punished.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
The TO community is aware of the problem, and I am confident they will address it to the best of their ability. It does give me some small comfort knowing that threads like these are given much less weight than they used to by the wider Competitive 40k community.

As a TO who has had both recent and ongoing communications with other TOs where some of these issues have arisen, I am not confident that "they" will address the matter - certainly not uniformly. Ability and willingness, to take a stand when something "bad" happens, are very different things. Some TOs have no problem being very public and transparent about what happens at their events. Others are far less comfortable. Some TOs have a much better grasp on rules than others, etc. Much like the posts in this thread, I don't feel that TOs have a common feeling about how "big" the problem is, or what an appropriate response is to issues at their events.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fishboy wrote:
You will never get anyone to admit that they cheated.

Perhaps not using the word "cheated", but I have seen people with some big balls and major integrity stand up and admit either a mistake or an issue where their opponent felt cheated. This has included people returning prize support and apologizing. We should all aspire to this sort of self regulation.

Here's a cool ap idea for Battlescribe. They could expand into sharing of lists with your opponent via cell or tablet. Also can do tourney scoring for TOs and list oversight. It would be an insignificant add on for them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I shouldn't say insignificant... I actually have no idea how hard that would be.

I like the crowd sourcing idea. Maybe give a free drink to anyone who finds a illegal list. Doesn't sound hyper abusive.

It seems like if a TO required a printed list from BS and the community stayed on top of that then that would prevents these shenanigans that have been occurring since the 6th edition deluge of army rules. I would like to see a way to share lists but if they were simply posted online ahead of time then you could take a look without your opponent having to do anything. Since we can afford to travel to event and expensive plastic toys I guess we can afford at least a older model smart phone or tablet.

The problem is that Battlescribe is by design very easy to edit. It would be trivial to subtly alter a list to give up some free points. The output of Battlescribe, Army Builder, and any other army tool is so verbose that small errors would be easy to hide.

The real issue is that list construction is far too unwieldy.