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Do you have a rules source that when the rules tell you that can 'run', that also means you can 'turbo boost'?
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Well the rules for the formation say "Run MOVE". And bikes can't "run" specifically; they can only turbo boost as their extra movement during the shooting phase. Maybe it isn't supposed to be interpreted that way.
BRB:
"Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting phase."
So it never says that anything that says you can make a 'Run move' (something which a Bike can't do) would allow them to Turbo Boost instead. The rule as written would not allow the Bikes to Turbo Boost.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
I suppose you are correct. I associated the two because they're in the same phase, forgo shooting, and restrict assault. Shame. Turn 1 assault would have been glorious.
What about disembarking and running? Could you assault because you ran, even though you disembarked as well?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/06 18:41:07
crimson_caesar wrote: Well the rules for the formation say "Run MOVE". And bikes can't "run" specifically; they can only turbo boost as their extra movement during the shooting phase. Maybe it isn't supposed to be interpreted that way.
BRB:
"Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting phase."
Yeah good luck convincing someone to let you do that. Orks have had a run then charge move for 2 editions. Nobody will let you do it, because bikes CANNOT run, only turbo boost. Otherwise ork bikes would be getting turn one or two charges every game.
warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!
Vash108 wrote: I am far from getting my hopes up for this. We have seen the same thing a few times like with Orks. It just a rules polish and not an update.
They just repackaged the Chaos Daemons codex as a collector's edition and sold it in super-limited quantity to celebrate 4 years of it not having an update-I mean the Curse of the Wulfen campaign. Just think---If I had a baby when that codex came out, he might even be learning to read right now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/06 19:52:44
What about disembarking and running? Could you assault because you ran, even though you disembarked as well?
Of course not. The rule removes one specific restriction disallowing you to assault: running. It doesn't remove all of them.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
But you can still run with jump infanterie so move 12 run d6 and then charge with a bit luck and reroll charge with the icone of korne (so you have the mark for free) and be able to charge with good dices.
And yes you can run and charge after comming out from an assault vehicule, you could like a landeraid but would cost a lot to try to get first turn charge.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/07 01:59:20
taetrius67 wrote: But you can still run with jump infanterie so move 12 run d6 and then charge with a bit luck and reroll charge with the icone of korne (so you have the mark for free) and be able to charge with good dices.
And yes you can run and charge after comming out from an assault vehicule, you could like a landeraid but would cost a lot to try to get first turn charge.
It's the Icon of Wrath and it doesn't give you the Mark of Khorne for free, you actually NEED the Mark for the icon.
I doubt we'll be seeing formations for any gods other than Khorne since only berserkers are available in plastic. I doubt they'd bother with a formation consisting primarily of direct-only finecast.
They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/07 10:18:41
taetrius67 wrote: But you can still run with jump infanterie so move 12 run d6 and then charge with a bit luck and reroll charge with the icone of korne (so you have the mark for free) and be able to charge with good dices.
And yes you can run and charge after comming out from an assault vehicule, you could like a landeraid but would cost a lot to try to get first turn charge.
It's the Icon of Wrath and it doesn't give you the Mark of Khorne for free, you actually NEED the Mark for the icon.
casvalremdeikun wrote: They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
In 3rd I was able to do that with a single codex. One should explain me why this is supposed to be an improvement. And why should I give GW money for this, and just do not play older editions and do not update.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/07 11:37:22
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
casvalremdeikun wrote: They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
In 3rd I was able to do that with a single codex. One should explain me why this is supposed to be an improvement. And why should I give GW money for this, and just do not play older editions and do not update.
casvalremdeikun wrote: They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
In 3rd I was able to do that with a single codex. One should explain me why this is supposed to be an improvement. And why should I give GW money for this, and just do not play older editions and do not update.
It isn't an improvement. It is BS. But it is what they are doing.
casvalremdeikun wrote: They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
In 3rd I was able to do that with a single codex. One should explain me why this is supposed to be an improvement. And why should I give GW money for this, and just do not play older editions and do not update.
Just don't and be done with it, then?
Oh, I've been done long time ago with CSM. I left it in another country to friends (I shared many of them with one of these friends, and with the other is like to say I left them to my brother). But I still see them in play when I go back and I find what they have become outrageous.
casvalremdeikun wrote: They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
In 3rd I was able to do that with a single codex. One should explain me why this is supposed to be an improvement. And why should I give GW money for this, and just do not play older editions and do not update.
It isn't an improvement. It is BS. But it is what they are doing.
One does wonder for how long can keep pulling this off
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/07 17:05:51
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
So... let's see. First of all, if you stick purely to these Black Legion formations, you miss out on like half of the units available to CSMs, including several of the better or at least less bad ones (cultists, spawn, obliterators, chaos knights, etc), so you're going to have to take a CAD anyway, and these formations will be supplemental to that rather than replacing it. With that in mind:
Black Legion Warband:
Spoiler:
as mentioned you're gonna take a CAD anyway, and most of the units in this formation would be better off just fielded as part of that CAD, since warlord trait re-roll and ObSec troops is better than double boons from challenges (something that hardly every happens to begin with) and kind of sort of but not really preferred enemy.
I like the unit selection here for fluff, but the benefits are too timid, and it wants to be a core formation in a decurion detachment that would actually grant access to the rest of the codex. As it is, this is a non-starter.
Chosen of Abaddon:
Spoiler:
With over-the-top costs to field and no benefits to speak of, this formation is just garbage.
Hounds of Abaddon:
Spoiler:
The first of these that's at least sort of interesting. Free MoK does a lot to offset the Vets tax, and the bonuses are actually halfway decent... except the best unit here, bikes, misses out on one of the main ones since they can't 'run', and the formation tacks an arbitrary prohibition against using the ability first turn that really feels just completely out of step with how alpha rushes have been handed out like candy lately, and the berzerker and CSM requirements are painful, as neither of those units is really going to contribute here.
I want to like this one, and it's not terrible exactly, but I just can't see it being good.
Daemon Engine Pack:
Spoiler:
Another kind of interesting formation. Does a lot for Forgefiends. Maulers are going to charge out of range, and WS4 doesn't do nearly as much for them as BS5 does for Forgefiends anyway. Probably not enough to make forgefiends actually good, though. Still, worth a try maybe, if you've got a couple dakkafiends lying around.
Cyclopia Cabal:
Spoiler:
The one everyone's talking about (and not just for a deliberately dumb rules misinterpretation that doesn't even make any sense because the 'duration of the power' is only the shooting attack made, even if it did prevent assaulting the target 'for the power's duration', it would still 'wear off' before your assault phase anyway.
That out of the way, I don't think this is quite as good as people are making out. IC costs stack up fast, and while chaos sorcerers LOOK cheap, that stops being the case when you take into account their various literally (vets) or functionally (psyker levels, familiars, maybe bikes, maybe inv saves) mandatory upgrades. Also, not every enemy has useful targets (TWC superfriends, Imperial Knights), and some of those that do are going to shut down the power as often as not anyway (Eldar). Nice against Tau, theoretically, until you remember that the power only seems impressive because their shooty units are blowing your entire army away to begin with, and while turning those stormsurges on their friends may be cathartic, it's not going to stop those same missiles and guns from wiping your expensive sorcerers out in the enemy's subsequent shooting phase.
Between the Dakkafiend formation, the cabal, and some FW options (rapier platforms, fire raptor, sicaran, chaos knight), you might be able to piece together a halfway decent ranged army that can reasonably make use of this power, but for the most part chaos marines are pushed into rush lists that try and hit melee as quickly as possible, which will render the power largely useless anyway.
Even then, though, this is an easy way to fit three undivided sorcerers into a CSM, Daemon, or KDK bound army, and they are one of the better IC options available to the faction, so it's probably a playable formation even if you aren't able to get much use out of shroud of deceit.
While not great, this formation is easily the best of the bunch here, much like the Last Memory, while not great, is easily the best Black Legion artefact, making Black Legion sorcerers something to look out for.
The Tormented:
Spoiler:
Due to the change in the artefact wording, Black Legion forces can now take artefacts from the parent codex as well as their supplement, meaning the prince in this formation can take the black mace, so that's nice.
As for the possessed... this is a significant upgrade to their offensive ability, don't get me wrong. Ws5, S5, I5, 2 attacks, rending, plus either AP3, Rend, or +1 attack (the +1 init is lost since the formations set init overwrites it, but still), makes for an actually quite hard hitting couple of units (min 2 for the formation).
As such, I really want to like this formation... but I just can't get past the delivery issue. With the vet tax, they cost a solid 28 points per model, but still die like basic CSMs to small arms fire. And these are pure melee infantry with no speed boost apart from fleet, and no access to dedicated assault transports.
In the end, I just can't see these possessed surviving long enough to make use of all that offensive melee power, and until the delivery issue is resolved, I just don't see this formation working.
Bringers of Despair:
Spoiler:
It's nice that they don't have to pay a giant pile of extra points for the upgrade, but even without it the terminators are still 34 points each with the vet tax before buying anything else, on top of Abaddon's colossal points cost, and like the possessed they are utterly without viable delivery options outside of the very overpriced (in both points and money) FW kharybdis.
If chaos had any access at all to homing beacons, or if the formation itself came with scatter mitigation, I'd be all about deep striking these guys. As it is, I think as with the tormented, the lack of viable delivery options kills this otherwise potentially interesting formation.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/04/07 21:13:27
You can, but if you want access to half the CSM units, including many of the better ones, they aren't present in any detachments or formations other than a CAD. And since you're going to be playing at least one CAD anyway to get access to chaos knights, spawn, heldrakes, or whatever, then even if you want to field CSMs and Chosen and the like, you have to ask yourself if they're better off in the Black Legion Warband formation, or just putting them in the CAD, where the troop units will get ObSec, a much better bonus than 'some of the time preferred enemy' and double boon rools, imo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/07 19:49:35
Pretty Much agree with all of this. Though I'd like to add to some.
Black Legion Warband:
Spoiler:
as mentioned you've gotta take a CAD anyway, and most of the units in this formation would be better off just fielded as part of that CAD, since warlord trait re-roll and ObSec troops is better than double boons from challenges (something that hardly every happens to begin with) and kind of sort of but not really preferred enemy.
I like the unit selection here for fluff, but the benefits are too timid, and it wants to be a core formation in a decurion detachment that would actually grant access to the rest of the codex. As it is, this is a non-starter.
If you know you're going to play for kill points beforehand, then this'll at least do something. The CAD is virtually pointless in that case. It is a little better than two boons though, as it pretty much eliminates any chance to turn into a spawn or daemonprince. Which is something I definitely appreciate lol.
If it extended toward boon of mutation it might have been nice for those tzeentch generals out there.
Chosen of Abaddon:
Spoiler:
With over-the-top costs to field and no benefits to speak of, this formation is just garbage.
The only use for this that I can think of is hiding a sorcerer in a termie unit, which now have fearless rather than running away after on guy dies. Though that's not exactly a popular choice to begin with.
Hounds of Abaddon:
Spoiler:
The first of these that's at least sort of interesting. Free MoK does a lot to offset the Vets tax, and the bonuses are actually halfway decent... except the best unit here, bikes, misses out on one of the main ones since they can't 'run', and the formation tacks an arbitrary prohibition against using the ability first turn that really feels just completely out of step with how alpha rushes have been handed out like candy lately, and the berzerker and CSM requirements are painful, as neither of those units is really going to contribute here.
I want to like this one, and it's not terrible exactly, but I just can't see it being good.
Well, not exactly a compelling argument, but this one could make for some lulzy moments at least. Like strength 8 on any given unit on the charge (hammerhand), buff them with lucius Fabius (derp) and have a unit of 20 fearless marines hitting at S9 XD. Or S8/AP2 at initative on the lord. Or S10 powerfists. Fun times lol.
Bringers of Despair:
Spoiler:
It's nice that they don't have to pay a giant pile of extra points for the upgrade, but even without it the terminators are still 34 points each with the vet tax before buying anything else, on top of Abaddon's colossal points cost, and like the possessed they are utterly without viable delivery options outside of the very overpriced (in both points and money) FW kharybdis.
If chaos had any access at all to homing beacons, or if the formation itself came with scatter mitigation, I'd be all about deep striking these guys. As it is, I think as with the tormented, the lack of viable delivery options kills this otherwise potentially interesting formation.
Well there is the Spartan and this can be quite a nasty unit when facing space marines, but that's also the only time it would be remotely viable. Maybe in apocalypse games when you can use the key?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/07 20:54:39
Well, not exactly a compelling argument, but this one could make for some lulzy moments at least. Like strength 8 on any given unit on the charge (hammerhand), buff them with lucius and have a unit of 20 fearless marines hitting at S9 XD. Or S8/AP2 at initative on the lord. Or S10 powerfists. Fun times lol.
I think you confused the rule wording. If you roll 8+ on the charge distance you get +1Str not Str8. Also every model from that formation is marked with Khorne so lucius can't join. And even if he did it'd be S5 hits.
Well, not exactly a compelling argument, but this one could make for some lulzy moments at least. Like strength 8 on any given unit on the charge (hammerhand), buff them with lucius and have a unit of 20 fearless marines hitting at S9 XD. Or S8/AP2 at initative on the lord. Or S10 powerfists. Fun times lol.
I think you confused the rule wording. If you roll 8+ on the charge distance you get +1Str not Str8. Also every model from that formation is marked with Khorne so lucius can't join. And even if he did it'd be S5 hits.
Yea, they get +1 strength from the formation and they get +1 strength from the icon through furious charge, then they get another +2 from hammer hand. And lucius Fabius doesn't need to join the squad he enhances, so that's anther +1. Though I never actually use him, could be wrong on that one.
wait...ugh... I meant Fabius of course -_-
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/07 20:55:09
Lucius upgrades a Chaos Marines squad to +1 strength and fearless iirc. doesn't have to ride with them. then hammerhand gives another +2 for 8 total strength.
It's nice that they're toning these formation bonuses down just in time for the CSM update. I eagerly await the SM formations. No doubt they'll be nice and balanced as well. Amirite?
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